Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Emdee, Nov 20, 2013.
Yes I think he was talkig about W/P but one can look at the sentence generally.
Nobody of them didnt say nothing after Carmen lost gold at WCh. And they all understand, two teams never will be at podium at OG so they wish TS will retire before OG?
Amazing how much unrespect they show to VM. What could VM wait from other federations and fans?
Oh goodness. Jeff Buttle is a huge fan of Virtue and Moir and was just pretty much gushing about them in his CBC interview today. Let's not jump to conclusions.
Thanks! You're a treasure
Yes, I appreciate that he's spoken out here, but it's so convenient. Russia cooked the books in this competition so a North American champion speaks out. That's wonderful.
But he's silent on Davis White versus Virtue Moir, and as much as anyone else, Jeff Buttle knows what a travesty the judging has been there.
He basically implied today on CBC that Virtue and Moir are the better team.
OK, why did they think BS couldn't have better PCS then WP?
Its just in FD or also in SD?
And yes, when its competition with Russians they start talking about judging, but not last season, when Carmen lost in PCS all the time.
At moments like this I wish VM will be experts and talking about why Lane skaters got such marks. Or about Weaver basic skating, or.about DW.
Was this smart to stay after.2010 OG?
No way should Bobrova/Soloviev have been 7 points ahead of W/P in the SD. So that was a travesty. And the FD marks were crazy too. Carol Lane said she was shocked B/S beat W/P on PCS in the FD.
That's something, I guess.
If Davis White weren't North American, the media would be screaming bloody murder, as they did when Domnina Shabalin used bungee cords. The knocks against that team were legitimate, but the N.A. media didn't care if it was legit. Knock the skating - knock the program - it's all the same.
The idea was to throw as much shade at the team as possible, to promote the success of the N.A. teams. The people doing the shouting and complaining didn't know much about ice dance. They just grabbed onto pretexts.
Buttle knows as well as anyone else out there that the books are cooked for Davis White. Davis & White's skating is never scrutinized in the scores, only how "clean" they are.
It's agreed that nobody judge the caliber of their lifts vis a vis Virtue and Moir's. That whole "base value" thing, we'll just ignore. The non-skating and filler in between elements, the lack of skating and dance hold and multidirectional skating in between elements, and the lack of run of blade into and out of elements, we'll also ignore.
Buttle spoke out today, and was so vehement about it, but he'll only come in the side door when it comes to talking about Virtue Moir versus Davis White. That is every bit the scandal as what happened at the RC this weekend.
I understand this, but why she think so? Did she explain something?
WP didn't.get there levels in SD, so they could get 70 points if they.did. I can't understand why when VM lost there levels people start talking about regression and losing technics, but in WP case its all about judges controversy?
And WP won FD so all is OK
.Or they must got marks, like VM?
He did? What exactly did he say? I guess he didn't say anything during WCh because he doesn't want to get too involved.
I think people hear what they want to hear. Lane said she though W and P were underscored. The remarks about VM /DW included compliments to DW for being technically super - and to VM for great emotional impact. Also it was pointed out that DW start out the season in terrific form and stay that way throughout, but the VM improve more gradually. Yes, the Canadian commentators have a soft spot and high hopes for VM, but they take nothing away from DW.
I think part of the reason for people doubting the calling is that not only Weaver/Poje, but also Chock/Bates, Gilles/Poirier and Papadakis/Cizeron (all direct competitors to Russian teams) got level 1 and level 2 for their Finnstep sequences and step sequences. The Russians did not get very good levels either (no level 1, though), but their SD results were still better. Okay, P/C made other mistakes that we all saw.
I have to mention Staviski again - he did see mistakes in Finnstep sequences and step sequences of W/P, C/B, G/P and P/C, but not enough to make them level 1. He said nothing about the specific levels that were given, though, as he was too distracted by the other commentator to pay that much attention to the specific marks. As for Weaver/Poje, he saw a "questionable" choctaw in the second Finnstep sequence and one mistake in the step sequence. Other than that, he saw their execution as quite clean. I am not citing Staviski's opinion as the end all be all, as I realize that he probably didn't have a good angle on all steps, and he is not a judge either. But if he was right, then it would be level 4 and 3 for W/P's Finnstep sequences. He was right about the step sequence, as that one small mistake made it a level 3.
In any case, I think that W/P's level 4s in Finnstep sequences at Skate Canada is another reason that makes people doubt level 2 and level 1 at another competition. Okay, probably level 3s or level 3 and level 2, as it was Skate Canada and the callers seemed to be less strict, but level 2 and 1? To be truthful, Staviski didn't see enough mistakes in Monko/Khaliavin's and Riazanova/Tkachenko's Finnstep sequences and step sequences to warrant level 2 either (or he didn't mention everything he saw because those are Russian teams, and he is a coach for one of those teams). Perhaps the calling was just very strict overall in this GP, but it seems like it was even harsher on the non Russian teams.
As for the FD, I understand that Bobrova is overall a better skater than Weaver, so B/S deserve higher marks for their skating skills, but do they really deserve higher marks than W/P in all the other components too with this FD?
The question posed to Buttle was whether V/M could catch up to D/W given the latter's 'perfect' skates. (No mention that SA's judging was off the map). Buttle said 'absolutely'. I don't know why the CBC is talking about V/M as though the Olympics is close to being lost. I think it's craziness - let these athletes compete for pity sake before handing out the medals. I didn't see B&S's SD to see if it was 7 points better than W&P, but their FP was definitely over marked - I thought it was awful, but that's just me. I agree with Pani that it seems V/M get treated unfairly by the media when it comes to these events, but I don't know why that is.
Is Bobrova really better than Weaver? She points her feet more and better than Weaver, but Weaver has better posture. Edge quality is a toss-up to me.
Regarding this V/M Russian fan interview, it sounds like Scott and Max Trankov are buddies. Does anyone know what Tessa said after Scott answered that question? I couldn't hear it properly.
I believe she said it was a dangerous friendship!
So they're not honest.
Thanks bluegrass. Needless to say I disagree with the premise behind the question - that DW are perfect. Again, if they weren't N.A. the media would be screaming its head off, so would fans, and all based on the obvious - the base value of the lifts, the lack of skating in between the elements, the more elementary mechanics in the elements and the compensation all through the program that is so different from Virtue and Moir's interdependance.
It's funny because I thought B/S's fd was stronger than their short. The skating in the short was a hot mess. Dobriev was skidding and sliding all over the ice. He traveled a lot in that key point where his partner was the one who supposedly missed the hand hold. And her feet were sloppy. The actual skating in B/S's fd seemed more stable and controlled than in the sd.
Oh, that's what she said. I guess she means they could get in trouble together if the opportunity presented itself.
It was fun to hear Scott's side of the friendship with Trankov. I had no idea they went back as far as they do until an instagram photo of them from their much younger years surfaced. I do wonder if the friendship has grown in this quad and now they look back on the history as closer than it was at the start.
Last year or the year before Volosozhar said it was her ambition to have the same impact as Virtue and Moir. She said there is such suspense when they skate, such immediacy. I took that as meaning they're so in the moment and their connection is so alive everything seems to be happening in real time, instead of the skaters repeating something they've rehearsed. Of course when you're that good, it frees you, and then your reactions to each other can have that immediacy.
I admit I was dubious that Volosozhar and Trankov could accomplish that, but this season they're skating with such abandon and immediacy they have some of that quality, and I'm impressed. Trankov has tweeted and posted photos with Virtue and Moir. It's always been obvious that he's a big fan of them as skaters and as people. He and Scott seem like peas in a pod in some ways. Funny, sharp, and both so good. When you're that good, you don't need to be defensive - talking up your pluses and ignoring your minuses. You have the confidence to take in the whole picture because you know you're the best.
When I said "skater", skating skills was all that I meant. It seems that Bobrova has better skating skills than Weaver, or so more knowledgeable people than me say.
Bobrova is a better dancer. Technically, I'd say Weaver is the better skater, but not by much. Last season, I ranked Bobrova third after Tessa (1st) and Pechalat (2nd), because she did really make an effort to improve her posture and with her musicality, the result was lovely. This season, though? Not impressed. It might very well be that V-M truly are the last of their kind. The state of ice dance right now is deplorable.
I have struggled with this question as well. There's a difference between skating perfect and being marked as if you'd skated perfect. V/M's skating is always on display every time they take the ice. They don't rely on visual trickery to hide things. They don't work with a safety net, so when they do make mistakes, it's more obvious. D/W make plenty of errors, but they go ignored or unnoticed to due the smoke-and-mirrors and busyness.
V/M remind me of the great jazz musicians. Within an individual performance, they riff off of and react to each other. Somewhere, I read this great line about partnered dancing. Paraphrasing, it was basically that partnered dance is navigated and improvised, with the music, partner, and conditions of the dance floor (in our case, this would be the rink) dictating what happens each time out. V/M do these things every time out.
Since people seem to like me doing this, I think I will go all the way through the interview. For me personally it will be easier to go through in liner order so I don't loose my place, but I will make sure to get everything (go all the way through and then go back to the beginning to get the stuff I missed there). Also, I have been trying not to post to often so it doesn't clog up the thread.
F: Ok, back to figure skating
S: Oh no.
F: Sorry! OK, I don’t know if this will be your last season competing, did you express everything that you wanted to on the ice? Or is there something there that you would still like to say?
S: That’s a tricky question.
T: Yeah, I think there will always be things we feel we haven’t explored.
S: There are a lot of good, young kids who can explore them, we don’t have to explore everything.
T: Right, I think it kind of gets to a point where after such a long time devoting our lives to this you have to think about it differently. So in what other part of my life can I explore and express and challenge myself.
S: Yeah. The way we work is to have an all or nothing approach, so we’ll know when it’s time and we don’t have the heart and soul to put into it anymore. I totally agree, there’s always going to be something to explore. There is a lot of opportunity, but that’s not the side of it that is going to be the reason why we retire in the end.
F: How does this all or nothing approach relate to Sochi?
S: ALL right now. We’re all in.
F: All of it?
S: Yeah, it’s all for Sochi right now.
T: We often say that we want- I mean our goal is to step on the ice in Sochi and know that we never made one exception, we never missed a training day, we never slacked off, we never made any excuses. It’s just knowing that we’ve prepared ourselves the best that we could. That’s a really comforting feeling and you can’t lose, because you’ve done everything you can do.
S: Yep, that’s the best feeling for an athlete. We had that a little bit in Vancouver and I think we’ll have it even more in Sochi.
Apparently the answer to that question is yes.
cgirl8, thank you for posting that interview with Tessa and Scott. Very charming and funny people. Subway, excellent posts here as well as in the other thread.
Not sure if it's been mentioned before but today was the first time I saw TUKTAMYSHEVA's LP to Carmen. Her outfit and overall styling had to be influenced by Tessa/Scott. Had she said anything about that?
As for Bobrova with Weaver.
Bobrova have better khees, edges, bigger skating, when Weavers knees didnt look so soft, her upper body never look relax.
But yes, this season Boborova show her awfull posture again and have bad programs, wich is sad. An d for me this season IK look much better, then BS.
But i see, SC and fans from Canada few years want to see WP number 1 team in Canada. But i didnt see how they are even close to TS.
And again about marks. So only VM regressing and couldnt get there levels, but WP if they got level 4 at home, must get this level untill OG? They couldnt have mistakes?
I should clarify my earlier comment - I like B&S - it's their long program I don't like.
Pani - V/M are put under a higher powered microscope than everyone else.
I too don't think that Weaver and Poje would be anywhere in the league of Virtue/Moir but I also don't have the feeling that Bobrova/Soloviev would be following in the footsteps of the great Russian ice dancers and while I can understand that W/P can make mistakes - like everybody else - them losing the SD to B/S by such a large margin looked like a travesti to me because I thought that B/S's SD was a hot mess, not a clean and sharp dance. Just my two cents.
I agree with you here. I also felt the huge margin was wrong. Just like I felt that Carmen should have won worlds FD at any rate.
Weaver used to be a hot mess herself and they had a lot of mistakes. But they have improved quite a bit in the last two years.
No one can approach TS IMO. They are the total package even with errors.
F: How would you like people to remember you? Like as champions or as great actors or as anything else?
T: I think as kind, thoughtful people would be nice. I mean skating is really important to us and hopefully people remember our skating fondly, but there’s a Maya Angelou quote that [says] people won’t remember what you said or what you did, they’ll remember how you made them feel. That is one of our goals.
S: That’s a great quote. I like that.
F: Good, you make us feel very good.
S: Well good. You’ve made us feel good, being loved and supported. It just makes us want to go home and work hard for you guys.
I have high hopes for Paul/Islam, they don't have the power yet,but especially Alexandra has such lovely posture.
Perhaps I'm misinterpreting posts I've read on FSU (not necessarily on the V/M threads) and what TV commentators say, but I get the sense people talk about posture and power/speed as 2 independent features of skating where power/speed is technical in nature while posture is stylistic.
For me, posture is a technical feature. Power and speed without excellent posture does not equal good technique. Put it another way, posture impacts on the skater's ability to generate speed and power. You have to have outstanding technique to have both excellent posture and speed/power. On the other hand, you don't have to have great technique to be speedy while having average posture (from a biomechanical perspective, it's much easier to be hunched over to generate powerful strokes). Unfortunately, in the pursuit of speed and power, posture has deteriorated over time (in all disciplines, not just in ice dance). Just look back at the ice dancers from the 1970s, even the lower-ranked teams have amazing posture. When I watch the basic stroking in singles (especially for the ladies) these days, it makes me cringe.
I don't get the sense that the current system sees posture as a technical ability (or at least it's not being judged as such vis a vis power/speed or tricks) or else the Shibutanis and Paul/Islam would be marked much higher (when they skate cleanly). I would be interested in knowing how the people who set up the Cop system and the judges view posture.
ETA: Once V/M retires, I'm not sure whether I'll be able to get excited about ice dance the way V/M has made me feel over the last 8 years; but there's always to hoping that there will be another team that comes along to knock my socks off.
OK, if you just see too marks - 61 and 68 i agree, it look too big distance between this two. But then you see the differece was in tech mark because WP didnt get there level. But again, its only VM under microscope and everyone else - its just judges and politickes, wich didnt let WP won over BS.
Why just not support TS, who syill skate 3 comperirion in the row? Big chance you will see your WP number 1 Canada team at WCh.
Link to the performance?
TUKTAMYSHEVA didnt skate Carmen it was Malaguena
Did i tell you, guys, that Tessa mom said to TS fans, that green dress was made for SD, but Marina said it will look better in FD?
And Kate said Tessa could have new dress for SD for OG, but she personally like this one (black)
Hmmm. So it sounds like we are wrong and they aren't doing seasons in their costumes. Did you hear anything about the FD costumes they wore at SC. Considering the green dress(and his white shirt) was made for the SD and it didn't represent summer then I disagree with Marina that it's a good dress for the FD. I think the colours they wore in Canada suited the FD so much better. I don't understand Marina's vision on that one.
They wear costumes from SC at the morning practice that day.
I think its only dress were new for SD, but Scott will not change his at all. This white shirt was from Finlandia (i think).
Maybe Marina wish to show seasons, but didnt tell this to Tessas mom? She said she like more warm pastel colors for this FD (Kate said).
My vision of TS FD costumes is totally different, but what could i do? Just wish Tessa will have more light and flying skirt. And honestly for me Scott look better in white, even if i dont want to see him in white shirt at his second OG
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