Tech Content of 1987: Witt Vs Kostner, who wins?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by bardtoob, Oct 24, 2010.

Tech Content of 1987: Witt Vs Kostner, who wins?

  1. Katarina Witt

    28 vote(s)
    84.8%
  2. Carolina Kostner

    5 vote(s)
    15.2%
  1. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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  2. orientalplane

    orientalplane Mad for mangelwurzels

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    It's rather an unbalanced question. NHK is a much smaller competition than Worlds, so it's no great surprise that it doesn't require the same technical content to win it. Everyone knows that Kostner wouldn't win Worlds 2011 with that performance. In addition, she's capable of doing the flip and lutz, but can't attempt them at the moment because of injury.
     
  3. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    ^ Witt had to perform compulsory figures at 1987 Worlds, so she could not focus exclusively on technical content, but she was capable of at least 3F.

    I supposed I could create a poll comparing NHK to NHK since fall of 1990, when compulsories were discontinued from competition, in general, although compulsories had not been part of NHK prior to that. Of course, then Kostner would be matched up with Midori and Tonya :2faced:
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2010
  4. orientalplane

    orientalplane Mad for mangelwurzels

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    Slight drift, but isn't it the case that Katarina landed the 3F only once at Worlds? (I'm not sure; I wasn't watching in those days.) And she certainly didn't ever land the lutz, or even try it.
     
  5. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, Witt introduced 3F to World competition then never did it again at Worlds, but Carolina never did compulsory figures either. I think Witt was practicing 3Lz to match Beillmann, but abandoned it because it was not necessary.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2010
  6. Jenna

    Jenna Well-Known Member

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    It's no secret that this wasn't the best ladies competition ever skated. NHK was the first event of the season and Worlds is the last. I don't think it's really useful to compare these two competitions. Carolina is probably trying to ease back into the jumps, after all she is injured. She definitely wouldn't win worlds with that skate.

    On another note, Rachael Flatt had the most technical content here, yes, more than Witt in '87.
     
  7. Sedge

    Sedge Active Member

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    I think the jump she pulled out of her pocket at Worlds was the 3Loop in 1987.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjvAu2TnxMo

    I am not sure I ever saw her do a 3F..most of her competitions were 3T and 3S only, IIRC.
    She did know how to sell those 2 jumps though...no doubt about it.
     
  8. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

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    The only time I saw Witt attempted a 3flip on TV was at 83 Europeans, and it was two-footed. That competition was aired on CBS, and it was the first and last time Janet Lynn was hired as a TV commentator, btw; Janet was horrible.

    If Witt had been able to do 4 different triples back in those days then she would've been unstoppable.
     
  9. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Here is pre-Zayak Rule Katarina Witt, complete with 2Lz-3T, 3F, 3T, and Split Flip-3T: WITT K. 1981 LP
     
  10. jiggs

    jiggs Well-Known Member

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    I am really getting sick of these threads. It's almost as if they're created to put Carolina in a bad light.

    All those ladies were not skating to their potential, some of them injured including Carolina. All of them are capable of doing so much more. It's the beginning of the season so give them a break.
     
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  11. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Then don't go into the Trash Can. There is a reason this is in the Trash Can.

    "The Trash Can
    Abandon hope all ye who enter here! Um, trolls, polls and crap." :2faced:

    Of course, being in the Trash Can does not change that Carolina wuzzgifted with a gold medal and prize money, accordingly, for performing technical content of the 80s, oldies but goodies :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2010
  12. Sedge

    Sedge Active Member

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    Thanks barbtoob..I had no idea she had ever done a 3F..looks like it went missing in action after that season..she was back to 2F at Worlds by 1983 and 84.
     
  13. Jenna

    Jenna Well-Known Member

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    How on earth was she gifted? Sure, Rachael Flatt out jumped her...but this is not 6.0 any longer. Carolina was clearly stronger in all other areas. To me, it wasn't even close.

    I don't really understand a compelling reason for this thread..why are we comparing Carolina at NHK to Katarina in a WC 23 years ago? Carolina is injured and could not perform to the best of her ability. She gave it her all...and in a field of weak performances she managed to win. I'm certain we'll be seeing her attempt greater difficulty as the season continues.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2010
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  14. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    ^ I did not see anything significantly better except in one component, and not enough to win a competition.

    ^ :lol: Looking for a "compelling reason" in the Trash Can ... By all means, please keep looking ... Trouble yourself over it ... I'm sure it will do you wonders.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2010
  15. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    That performance of Witt is one of my all time favorites... it's a compliment Carolina is being compared to that. ;)

    I'm definitely one who doesn't like it when technical content is going backwards, but it's just a GP. When it happens at Worlds or Olympics where everyone is supposed to be in top shape, then I'd say it demonstrates the sport going backward or changing priorities; when it happens at a GP, I'd say it demonstrates the weak field of that particular GP.

    Was she supposed to withdraw because she couldn't do the lutz and flip? That's kind of what Plushenko did for Worlds (he was too injured to do the quad, and elected not to compete without it). I don't blame her for skating anyway. It's her first GP and an oppourtunity to get her programs out, test her levels, etc. I would hope this is not her jump layout that she plans to do all season. If she (or anyone) is able to win Euros, GPF, or Worlds with that content then I'd say we have a problem.
     
  16. CaptCrunch

    CaptCrunch New Member

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    Witt's 87 Worlds LP was far superior to what Kostner just did at NHK. At least Witt landed all of her 2A attempts. :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

    I'm sure once Kostner tries to put the lutz and the flip back into the program she'll be a mess again. Of course it was too much to ask her to go clean skating such a junior program.
     
  17. CaptCrunch

    CaptCrunch New Member

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    Did you not see worlds last year when the ladies bronze medalist missed her 2A in the SP and then in the LP 5 of her 7 jumping passes were double jumps? In ladies figure skating the euro judges are sending messages to do easier programs and those are the ones getting rewarded. 7 of the 9 judges at NHK were from Europe. I think worlds was the same.
     
  18. Wyliefan

    Wyliefan Well-Known Member

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    You sound more upset about the money than the medal.
     
  19. midori

    midori Well-Known Member

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    You are comparing a World winning performance v.s. only 2nd in NHK Trophy in October?? What's the point?? :confused:

    ETA: plus, 1987 was a year before Olys, and 2010 GPS is right after Olys.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2010
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  20. alchemy void

    alchemy void it's time for the perkolator

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  21. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    Yes, I was horrified. But that was Worlds.
    I don't think it has anything to do with being Euro. On the men's side it tends to be the North Americans who are doing the easier jumps.
     
  22. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

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    Katarina's 87 content was probably better than Carolina's at the 2010 NHK, but the 2010 NHK was a baaaad ladies competition - not reflective of the current technical state of the ladies. What about Katarina's 1988 Olympics performance vs. Yuna's 2010 Olympics performance? !
     
  23. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Why not? Make a poll. It will be fun :D
     
  24. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

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    That's too obvious! If we're just talking about tech content, it's Yuna hands down.
     
  25. essence_of_soy

    essence_of_soy Well-Known Member

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    Witt, easily.

    But Katarina was at the top of her game at the World Championships.

    Remember, in that competition she had to pull out all the stops to take the title from Debi Thomas, who skating immediately before Witt, performed brilliantly as well.

    As a testament to Witt's competitive nature, she went for the risky triple loop, a jump she rarely landed in competition, and in fact, fell on during the six minute warm - up.

    Carolina, on the other hand, is carrying a knee injury.

    So, her watered down content last weekend is not surprising. Her skate was a far cry from the European Championships of 2003 where she landed two triple - triple combinations in what was her best jumping display under either 6.0 or IJS.
     
  26. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    Just about the technical content : Katarina Witt.
    But even if WSS is my favorite program of Katarina Witt, I think the LP of Carolina is absolutely beautiful.
     
  27. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    She was an itty bitty thing . . . a little jumping bean. How did she place?
     
  28. shine

    shine Well-Known Member

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    What a pointless thread. Even for the Trash Can. There's really no need to pick a skater apart to death when she was obviously injured and had stated prior to the competition that she wouldn't be attempting the left-foot picking jumps.
     
  29. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    ^ You've seemed to have decided there is a point, even if everybody is not aware of any injury.
     
  30. Lainerb

    Lainerb New Member

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    Carolina Kostner destroyed everyone at NHK; if anything her victory is more a reflection on the quality of the other skaters. Like others have state Kostner is injured and quite frankly it's good enough in my book that she didn't double or single all her jumps.