Team competition at Sochi

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by That Don Guy, Dec 31, 2011.

  1. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Exactly. Neither or both might be equally unwanted, but could be USFS's decision. There's no official guarantee for the team event, unless the discipline has only one participant, and USFS doesn't skip that discipline. (Since the US is in the medal hunt, it's not likely that they'd skip one.)
  2. NadineWhite

    NadineWhite Well-Known Member

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    one thing's for sure the team event is going to be the most interesting, first time ever held, bound to be some glitches here & there....
  3. Maofan7

    Maofan7 Away

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    New article in USA Today entitled 'U.S. Figure Skating seeks to win new Olympic event'. It reads:-

    Last edited: Jan 26, 2013
  4. IceIceBaby

    IceIceBaby New Member

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    There is no point expect gold in such a competition as a team event in FIGURE SKATING. One random fall and that's it.
  5. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    I don't see where anyone was expecting gold, but one random fall in IJS score does not mean instant :drama:, and team scoring is on a single point/inverse-to-placement system, which means that a skater or team that drops a place loses on point, not the difference in absolute program score.
  6. bek

    bek Guest

    That one I don't get.. We are likely to get creamed in Pairs...
  7. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

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    Yeah and depth actually has slightly less meaning then breadth here.
  8. l'etoile

    l'etoile New Member

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    Sorry for being ignorant, but is this team competition supposed to be held only in Olympics or would it be a regular in Worlds, too?
  9. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    The US is most likely to be fifth in Pairs, behind Russia, Germany, China, and Canada. I don't think the US has a shot at gold, which should be between Russia and Canada, assuming the strongest skaters skate, but the US should be a favorite for bronze.

    The Team Event is currently scheduled for the Oympics only. World Team Trophy has been held in Japan, and I doubt the ISU would risk pissing off the Japanese Fed and TV people to consolidate it into Worlds. The participation criteria for WTT are more stringent than for the Olympic Team event, where there are no sanctions against top-ranked skaters who don't participate.
    l'etoile and (deleted member) like this.
  10. bek

    bek Guest

    Its actually too bad Italy doesn't have some good men because they could maybe challenge for a medal. They have a good dance team, a good pairs team, a great lady (and a good lady).. I'm thinking the US could be sixth in pairs.
  11. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Berton/Hotarek could beat Denney/Coughlin if they skate the way they did at Euros. Their 2013 Euros score was nearly 20 points higher than their Worlds 2012 score and nearly 30 points higher than their Euros 2012 score, showing a huge improvement. It's only a couple of points higher than Denney/Coughlin's high score at 4C's last year, but it's certainly doable. It should be close, especially with Denney/Coughlin playing catch-up, health-wise.

    The same could be said of Japan -- if they only had a mid-level Pairs team, they could be challenging for a medal, since they have great Ladies and Men and a lowish-level Dance team (likely behind CAN, RUS, USA, ITA, FRA, possibly GER) -- or France -- if they only had a competitive Ladies skater, since they've got a great Dance team, two Men who can be great, and a decent, improving Pairs team.
  12. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    They should have coughed up the money for Contesti's training costs. :(

    US will do fine in pairs. China and Germany might not make it to the final, so US would probably slot 3rd in pairs behind Russia and Canada; France and Japan (if they put together a team) are beatable for them.
  13. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    I'm really starting to warm up to this team competition. One bad skate by one person can take a team right out of the medals.
  14. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    I think the final two teams will come from ITA, FRA, CHN, and JPN. I don't think Germany will make it, since their only strong discipline is Pairs, and China has stronger Ladies and Men.

    Since points are cumulative, the advantage to a weaker participant in the FS/FD is that last is six points instead of one (in the SP/SD). The biggest obstacle to gold for the US should be the points gap after the SP/SD, and that's where Pairs is likely to come in, with USA behind RUS, GER, CAN, CHN, and possibly ITA.

    For the US best case scenarios for each individual discipline aren't the best for the total; for the gold, +/-/neutral is how each could impact the distance between the US and RUS or CAN:

    • FRA: + for Dance, - for Men, neutral for Ladies. P/B should put space between D/W and either I/K or B/S, however, Amodio or Joubert should put space between Chan and the US Man.
    • CHN: neutral for Ladies, Dance, and Men, - for Pairs. P/T should put space between V/T and D/C, and possibly between D/R and D/C.
    • ITA: - for Pairs (potentially) and Ladies, neutral for Dance and Men. B/H could put space between V/T and D/C and D/R and D/C.
    • JPN: - for Men and Ladies, neutral for Pairs and Dance. [Japanese woman] could put space between [Russian woman] and Wagner. [Japanese Man] could put space between US Man and Chan.

    D/W are likely to place ahead of a Russian Dance team, and could place ahead of V/M, but I wouldn't count on it; without FRA in the final, it will only be a one-point gain in the FD.

    vs. RUS: +2 in the SD, +1 (no FRA) or +2 in the FD.
    vs. CAN: Oh, who knows. Maybe they'll split it and the points will come out equal.​

    D/C are likely to place behind [a Russian team], S/S, P/T, D/R, maybe B/H. Without GER in the final, it's likely they'd be 4th. Without GER and ITA in the final, it's likely they'd be 3rd.

    vs. RUS: -5 if V/T in 1st and B/H ahead in the SP. -3 if V/T in 2nd and D/C ahead of B/H in the SP. -4 if [Russian pair] win and ITA and CHN are in the FS. -3 if [Russian Pair] win and ITA or CHN is in the FS, -2 if [Russian Pair] win and ITA and CHN not in FS.
    vs. CAN: -2 in SP, -2 in the FS if ITA in, -1 if ITA out.​

    Assuming Wagner is the US woman, at this point, if Kostner doesn't crumble in the Olympics, Wagner could very well be behind Kostner, Asada, and one of the Russian Ladies -- maybe Sotnikova is the stronger SP skater. Without a very bad skate, she's unlikely to be behind FRA, CHN, GER, CAN (although, who knows, especially in the SP), FIN?, UKR?, ESP?, whoever the last two teams are.

    vs. RUS: -1 to -3 in the SP, -1 if JPN and ITA don't make the final, -2 if either don't make the final.
    vs. CAN: +1 to +3 in SP and FS. I think, unless FIN is in the final and Korpi skates well in the SP, Osmond could be Top five in the SP.​

    I have no idea who US man will be for each program. Abbott, of all the US Men, has the potential to medal, but has yet to skate two programs to his potential. I'm not sure it matters, placement-wise, if it's Abbott or Miner. (Or, possibly, Farris). Of all of the disciplines, this is probably the biggest crap shoot: If ESP is somehow one of the last two teams, Fernandez could skate a blinder, as could Han Yan, if the Chinese Fed decides to send him. Will Plushenko be okay for Sochi, and, if so, and Kovtun gains two places in London, will he skip the Team Event? It could be -2 for the US if Fernandez and Han Yan skate and skate well. JPN, Chan, and FRA have great shots at going ahead of a US Man, as does Fernandez, if Spain competes. If CZE is in, Brezina could, too.

    vs. RUS: +1 to -3, depending on whether there is a strong Plushenko or Kovtun in the SP and whether Fernandez skates, and +1 to -1 if JPN or FRA does not make the final.
    vs. CAN: -3 in the SP, and -2, if JPN or FRA does not make the final.​

    I think CAN has an advantage over the US in everything but Ladies -- I don't see D/W winning both the SD and FD segments over V/M -- and that the advantage isn't that great, because there won't be three Ladies from Japan and Russia, just one. The US will have a small advantage over RUS in Dance, smaller if FRA doesn't make the final, but a big disadvantage in the Pairs SP and a possible, small disadvantage in Men, depending on who shows up in what condition.
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2013
  15. Theatregirl1122

    Theatregirl1122 Well-Known Member

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    I actually didn't think of how weird it will be for D&W and V&M to face off in Sochi before the actual competition. I feel like it isn't as weird in other disciplines, but in dance... It'll be interesting to see if they split, if it terns out to be telling as far as how the eventual results go, or if it comes out totally different.
  16. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    If the US is serious about the Team Event, they'll assign D/W. If the team is very solid for bronze, but has no real chance for the gold or silver, then maybe C/B would do the FD, depending which five teams were in the final. However much Skate Canada is all over Gilles/Poirier, they will automatically lose points to the Russian team, and only V/M can give Canada a three-point advantage over Russia after the SD, which Canada will need to compensate for a disadvantage in Ladies and Pairs. Skate Canada in the hunt for the gold after the SD will need V/M again.

    I wonder what Moir thinks about the team event. It would give him a chance to be a three-time Olympic gold medalist, something only Plushenko has a chance at, and that's a very long shot at this point, unless he can heal before next year.
  17. Theatregirl1122

    Theatregirl1122 Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure if this is a reply to me, but if it was, I didn't mean split in terms of one or both of them only doing one program. I meant split in terms of one of them winning one program and one winning the other.

    I don't think there's any way that USFSA or Skate Canada let V&M and D&W out of the team event and I don't think either team would elect not to compete for an Olympic medal they have a great shot at.

    I think Tessa will also have a shot. ;)
  18. Frau Muller

    Frau Muller President of Dick Button Appreciation Club

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    Sorry if this question has been asked and answered earlier (I read posts and could not find it easily):

    Must the competitors in the Olympics Team Event come from a country's pool of skaters already assigned to one of the four traditional disciplines...or can a country's federation assign skaters just to the Team event? I ask because of something Evan Lysacek quickly stated in yesterday's NBC telecast of the Nat'ls Men's finals: "I hope to be in Sochi to help the USA win the Team Event." (paraphrase)

    This made me wonder if USFS could assign Evan (or any other skater) to only the Team Event if he/she fails to qualify for the traditional singles/pairs/dance events?
  19. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    A skater/team can be assigned to the team event only if the country hasn't qualified at least one for the individual event through London Worlds or 2013 Nebelhorn. (If it's the host country who hasn't qualified one, the host bye is one person for both the team [if applicable] and individual competitions.)

    Lysacek would have to qualify for the Men's event to skate the team event.

    The question is what the alternates policy is. I think there are no substitutions after the first official practice. Does anyone know the actual policy? Also, if it's the first official practice, is this for all disciplines or just the applicable discipline? It seems they'd want a provision to replace someone who is injured during the team competition for the individual competition, and, depending on the policy, someone could skate the team competition and then be injured or "injured" and have someone else skate the individual discipline.
  20. NadineWhite

    NadineWhite Well-Known Member

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    Like I said previously, the Team Event is going to be the most interesting. The first time ever held, bound to be some glitches here & there, and also some controversial results imho. Already the rules are kinda hazy. What the actual competition will look like will be anybody's guess. :D :eek:
  21. Visaliakid

    Visaliakid Well-Known Member

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    The World Team Trophy has also acquired the important role of paving the way to the new competition which will be held for the first time in Sochi in 2014. Its rules will be lightly different from the ones of the World Team Trophy and have been summarized by the ISU president Ottavio Ciquanta during a press conference in Nice, during the 2012 World Championships. This is What Cinquanta said:

    Ottavio Cinquanta - Nice 2012
    “We are ready to introduce the Team Event for the Sochi Olympic Games. It will last three days and it will involve ten different teams from ten different countires. These countries will be chosen according to the performance of their skaters during the 2012/2013 season.

    The competitions which will be taken into account will be the World Championships and the Grand Prix series (but not the final), the Four Continents and the European Championships if needed, and the Junior World Championships and Junior Gran Prix if necessary.

    The qualified countries will be announced at the end of the next season.

    The athletes who will represent their country will be one man, one lady, one pair and one ice dance pair. The skater who will end up first will receive 10 points, the second 9 points, the third 8 points and so on. According to the points gained by each country, the first five teams will qualify for the second part of the competition, the long program. At the end of the competition the first three countries will make the podium, the other teams will receive a diploma (except for the last two teams, which won't receive anything).

    The countries who will qualify for the long program will be able to change the skater who will compete in the long program. It is possible to substitute atlhetes for a maximum of two disciplines per team (man or lady, ice dance or pair). If a country which decided to use a substitution wins a medal, both the skaters who did compete for that country will receive the medal.
    If in a country only three disciplines qualify for the Team Event, the athlete who didn't qualify will be able to partecipate anyhow.

    The Team Event will start on the day prior to the Olympic Opening Ceremony, with the short programs. During the second and third day of the Event the athletes will perform the long programs.

    If during the Olympic Games the Team Event will be appreciated, it will be added to the following World Championships.”
    PeterG and (deleted member) like this.
  22. manhn

    manhn Well-Known Member

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    The second *and* third day for the long programs?
  23. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    I'm really shocked that the ISU would take WTT away from Japan, since Japan doesn't get every Worlds.
  24. Frau Muller

    Frau Muller President of Dick Button Appreciation Club

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    Thanks for this info. Hopefully the rules are 'air-tight' enough so that no substitution 'shenanigans' can occur.

    I think that Visaliakid provided answers above, i.e., issue with substitutions can occur between the short and long programs of the Team Event but only among skaters already in a country's pool of skaters for the traditional four disciplines. (In other words, Evan would still have to be one of the USA's skaters in the traditional Men's event. With all due respect to Evan, having seen the finals of the Sr Men at US Nationals, I think that the currently-competing US senior men can 'help Team USA' on their own.)
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2013
  25. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    I wonder if that is to be read as they can't substitute both singles skaters, or both dance and pairs. Guessing it's just not artfully worded.
  26. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    Are they necessarily taking WTT away from Japan? Why can't that event continue even with the addition of a team event to the world championships, should such an addition occur?

    It's not as though no federations were allowed to hold international ice dance events after ice dancing was added to Worlds in the 1950s.
  27. patinage

    patinage New Member

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    Here is the actual wording from Qualification Systems for XXII Olympic Winter Games, Sochi 2014:

    "The Skaters/Couples competing in the Free Skating must be the same as those having competed in the Short Program/Short Dance, however each Team has the option to replace up to two (2) entries (two Single Skaters or one Single Skater (Lady or Man) plus one couple (Pair Skating or Ice Dance) or both the Pair Skating and Ice Dance Couples) between the Short Program/Short Dance and the Fee [sic] Skating/Free Dance provided such Skaters/Couple is part of the accredited delegation on site of the OWG."

    So basically, up to two substitutions from any of the four disciplines.

    On a separate topic, I was wondering--will there be minimum scores in place for the Olympics?
    Cherub721 and (deleted member) like this.
  28. barbk

    barbk Well-Known Member

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    The ISU with ambiguous language in the rules? Surely you jest. ;)
  29. patinage

    patinage New Member

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    I wish the team competition wasn't making its debut at the Olympics. It should have had a test run at Worlds to work out any kinks.

    Murphy's law and ISU incompetency make it all too likely that something won't go as planned, some unintended consequence of the rules will rear its ugly head, controversy will ensue, figure skating will be made to look bad on the world stage yet again . . . and that's just me being optimistic. ;)
  30. IceIceBaby

    IceIceBaby New Member

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    Yeah, or Japan could come up with something else. They seem to be the most innovative federation.
    What is the situation concerning this year's WTT so far, which countries are going?
  31. morqet

    morqet Active Member

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    I think this is the current top 7 teams (6 places available), obviously you'd expect USA/Canada/China to pick up more points after 4 Continents.

    RUSSIA: 6,961
    USA: 5,008
    FRANCE: 4,856
    CANADA: 4,436
    ITALY: 4,119
    GERMANY: 3,237
    CHINA: 2,698

    JAPAN have 4,750 points, but no pairs team, so are not eligible.
  32. NMURA

    NMURA Member

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    As far as WTT is concerned, Japan is qualified automatically as a host country. I assume they will manage the 6th place in pairs automatically by just showing up at the arena.
  33. BigB08822

    BigB08822 Well-Known Member

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    I support a team medal, always have, but I do have my worries. What if this only lasts one or two Olympics? Some people will always have inflated medal counts. I know it's not that big of a deal but that bothers me for some reason.
  34. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    The rules for participation for WTT are more stringent than they are for the Olympic event which, I'm guessing, would be the same for Worlds. I think it would be a hard sell to the Federations to have both a team event at Worlds and WTT with forced participation among the top skaters after Worlds. Right now, it's a team novelty. Not so much a month after Worlds.
  35. flowerpower

    flowerpower Well-Known Member

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    I think (maybe) I know what you mean. Right now, an Oly medal in FS is very hard to achieve, and must be done as an individual/partnership competing against the very best in your discipline. With the team event, a broader group of skaters will be able call themselves Olympic FS medalists, some of whom might not have been podium contenders in their own disciplines.
  36. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Should that matter? The weakest gymnast on a gymnastics team is good enough to be necessary for the team. In the final, the last place finisher gets six points for the team. A team medalist without an individual medal doesn't take away from the winner of the all-around.
  37. flowerpower

    flowerpower Well-Known Member

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    I suppose it depends how much importance people put on having a team Oly FS competition at all - how important it is to claim to be "the best figure skating country". We haven't had that concept in FS before.

    If skaters who couldn't contend for the podium in their discipline will be able to say they are Oly figure skating medalists, I think it does devalue the Oly medals. Maybe the World medals will become more prestigious than the Oly ones, within skating circles.

    ETA: I recognize that for people knowledgeable about figure skating, an Oly team medal would not represent the same thing as an individual medal, but that distinction may be lost on the broader public and media. And legitimately, all of those people can call themselves Olympic medalists.
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2013
  38. barbk

    barbk Well-Known Member

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    I don't see those who earn an Olympic medal as part of a swimming relay team as devaluing those who win individual medals. Why would this be different?
  39. manhn

    manhn Well-Known Member

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    I barely watch swimming. And gymnastics just sucks. I have no desire to see figure skating become either sport.
  40. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    During Kwan's heyday, I remember imagining a team event, but based on discipline. Like every country would be allowed to have 6 skaters in each discipline and they add the top five placements of each team. Maybe 6 would have been too much and five would be better with the top 4 counting. Imagine a team of Kwan, Cohen, Hughes, Nikodinov, McDonough, and Kirk vs. Slutskaya, Butryskaya, Volchkova, Sokolova, Oblasova, and Nelidina vs. Suguri, Onda, Arakawa, Suzuki, Nakano, and Wakamatsu (Ando placed third at 2001-2002 Japanese Championships but was probably too young to compete at those Olympics), etc.

    I think the Russian Ice Dance teams and pairs would have dominated the team event if it was separated by discipline. I wonder if skaters would stick around longer or if it bolster participation if there was a team event that allowed skaters more opportunity to vie for a medal. Then it could be like gymnastics where the skaters in the top three, two, or one spot (depending if the ISU used the same qualifying slot procedure as they use now) of the team competition would then qualify for the individual competition.