Team competition at Sochi

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by That Don Guy, Dec 31, 2011.

  1. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    Not to put down the top ranked skaters but :shuffle: I doubt they wouldn't want the opportunity to get a chance to win two gold medals if they had the chance. For instance: Patrick Chan wouldn't want to sit out the team event to conserve his energy and give his spot to a lower ranked skater just to see if he could win won later. What if he messes up and goes home with nothing? I doubt he would risk it, I doubt any skater would risk it.

    My guess it is if any of the skaters have the opportunity to skate any win ANY color medal...they will.
     
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  2. BigB08822

    BigB08822 Well-Known Member

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    So what if someone like Rachael Flatt has a gold medal because of the team event? It doesn't make her a better skater than Michelle Kwan or an equal skater to Yu Na Kim. That is absurd. Is Amanda Borden (gymnast) as good as Nadia just because she has a team gold medal? NO! Borden never medaled individually or even competed in the AA on the World or Olympic stage. People will have to use logic and look at skater's accomplishments. A team gold medal will not be the same as an individual gold medal.

    Gymnastics always has the team event first. Partly as qualifying for the other events but also as a good warm up and introduction to the apparatus for the athletes. The team event will allow the skaters to get a feel for the ice, arena, cameras, crowd, etc. If an athlete skates lights out during the team and blows it during the individual competition that is their own fault. If they do a perfect practice run through and then blow it during the event is it somehow the organizers fault for holding that practice when they did? These athletes are in peak shape and should be able to do perfect routines during all run throughs, multiple times a day. Those that can't are going to have a harder time winning.
     
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  3. Skate Talker

    Skate Talker Well-Known Member

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    So why don't they weight the Free Programs double the placement points of the short programs to make the Free worth 2/3 as is more normal. For example winning free scores 20 points, 2nd 18, etc. That would eliminate the scenario where blowing the free still leads to a win, wouldn't it?
     
  4. skipaway

    skipaway Well-Known Member

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    I've read the thread, but help me out here...if a team ie..Japan, doesn't have a qualifying pairs team, then how can they be in the team competition? Sorry, my head is about to explode...i'm so confused
     
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  5. l'etoile

    l'etoile New Member

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    Another thanks from me to you Domshabfan for the explanation!

    What I'm wondering is, how about other Olympic sports that have team competition? Do they have team events after individual events or vice versa?
    I think skaters should be able to show their A game in individual events and consider it as their priority. But I do like the idea of team events:rolleyes:
     
  6. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Yes, a country can choose to compete in three out of four disciplines.

    See upthread for Domshabfan's breakdown of last year's Worlds for how Japan is a likely medal contender with three entries.
     
  7. Celine82

    Celine82 Well-Known Member

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    But that includes a pair. Without the pair, they might make it to the free, but I doubt they could beat any of Russia, Canada or the US with only 3 entries in the LP because they'd have at least 7 points (4th and worst place for any of the 4 other countries in the pairs LP) to make up with their man, lady and ice dancers.

    The way I understand it, though, Takahashi/Tran's results will count toward qualifying Japan for the Olympic Team Event.

    As for the Team Event being before the single events, among the pros and cons, I just want to point out that Kozuka and Brezina had to go through the qualifying round at Worlds last year. Look how things turned out for them in the "real" LP after their "extra practice"...
     
  8. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    Without an Olympic-eligible pair of the caliber of Takahashi & Tran, Japan probably isn't a medal contender.

    If you give Japan one point instead of seven in the first round, it leaves them behind Germany and France, and well back of Russia, Canada, and the U.S.

    Even if you assume Japan somehow makes to the second round, they would still finish still far behind the top three on points.

    Russia, Canada, and the U.S. are the three clear favorites for the medals.
     
  9. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    According to Domshabfan's tally, there would be a difference of three points using the Reeds' placement instead of Takahashi/Tran's, and that would be only three points off Canada and the US for bronze.

    Obviously, if the FS is weighted higher, then Japan won't have a chance with three of four disciplines.

    I don't think anyone will catch Russia, and it's possible the US will gain a point or two, but ice is slippery, and I can't imagine Japan not sending a team because they are down a pair.
     
  10. Celine82

    Celine82 Well-Known Member

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    What does the Reeds's placement have to do with Takahashi/Tran's "non-placement"? :confused:

    If you simply remove the pair from Domshabfan's calculations, you get:

    Japan still advances to the LP (same score as Germany, above France) but then:

    So they're clearly last of the five.

    (Canada and the US would also each get an extra point as their pairs would be one rank higher in the SP.)
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2012
  11. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    That begs the question... what's the tiebreaker if two countries have the same overall points? Total scores?
     
  12. Celine82

    Celine82 Well-Known Member

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    The document says

    ETA: Thinking about it, it doesn't seem fair at all given the differences in scores from one category to the other. If a team has a pair third, a lady 5th, a man 6th and a dance team 8th, the way I understand it is that they'd take the pair + lady scores ("2 best places"), even though the man could actually have a higher score... Yuck. They need to change that to "taking into consideration the 2 highest scores of the concerned Teams".
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2012
  13. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Sorry, I was taking best three of four, which isn't the way it will work.
     
  14. That Don Guy

    That Don Guy New Member

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    Where did you see that the team event is before the individual events?

    There will be a similar team event at the 2012 Youth Winter Olympics in Innsbruck in a few weeks, and the schedule says that the team event takes place after the individual events (where the exhibition would normally take place).

    Then again, there doesn't appear to be time to hold both rounds of the team event after the individual events. The Sochi 2014 site has a list of the dates on which figure skating will take place, and while they don't specify which events take place on what days, it looks like the first (SP) round of the team competition takes place the day between the Ice Dance LP and the Ladies SP.
    (It looks like: Pairs SP, off, Pairs LP, Men SP, off, Men LP, Dance SP, off, Dance LP, Team SP, Ladies SP, off, Ladies LP, Team LP - note the arena is not available on off days as it is also used for short track speed skating.)

    Remember, they still have two years to work out the details. I wouldn't be surprised if they end up deciding to use the individual events' short program results to determine the five teams that compete in the long program round (which would be held after the rest of the competition, in place of the exhibition).
     
  15. algonquin

    algonquin Well-Known Member

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    Are the federations on board with this idea or this being imposed on them by the ISU?
     
  16. johndockley92

    johndockley92 New Member

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    Precisely!

    SO based on last year's results, the US would have sent Jeremy, Mirai, Denney and Barret, and Hubbell & Hubbell to this event (Wow we would have done well LOL).
     
  17. barbk

    barbk Well-Known Member

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    They could do that, but I believe that they can not then use the SP scores according to the rules that apply for all Olympic sports.
     
  18. bek

    bek Guest

    I'm actually looking forward to the team competition; I think it could be a great addition to the sport, if its done right.
     
  19. Visaliakid

    Visaliakid Well-Known Member

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    The IOC will do the imposing of it's wishes on the ISU as to the scheduling of this new team event. President Cinquanta stated at the last meeting of the ISU Full Council that it was decided that the Team event would be held before any of the four individual disciplines. One can only assume that the IOC highly suggested the Team comp go first.
     
  20. aka_gerbil

    aka_gerbil Rooting for the Underdogs

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    Maybe it's just me, but I'm predicting there will be some sort of Level 4, +3 GOE drama to come out of this, perhaps with a few 10's for PCS.

    Someone is going to get ill when they beat someone in the team competetion but don't in the individual events. Someone who gets beat in both the team competition and individual event will claim that the judging of the team event affected the individual event... So on and so forth. ;)
     
  21. Jenna

    Jenna Well-Known Member

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    Yes! ITA. The team comp. of gymnastics is always enjoyable, and it seems as though this will be similar.
     
  22. Domshabfan

    Domshabfan Well-Known Member

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    Even schedule from the Wikipedia page does not match the result from Sochi games committee website. Even this will be updated since this was the initial schedule submitted by Sochi when bidding for the games, so close to games they will make these changes. One important aspect of the schedule is that ice-dancing back then was allotted 3 days, with CD fused with OD to form SD, the organisers have gained a day for team competition. For an additional day of team competition the organisers may have to use the closing ceremony day or forced to put 2 figure skating event on the same day, say Men's SP and Pairs FS. I don't think ISU will cancel Gala, it is one of the most enjoyable casual performance of the winter competition along with opening and closing ceremonies. As for competition starting before the opening ceremonies, I don't think ISU and IOC really likes the idea. It is only Men's football with 16 teams as opposed to other team sports with 12 teams that starts before the opening ceremony.
     
  23. Japanfan

    Japanfan Well-Known Member

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    I'm still trying to wrap my head around this event - expecting to hear at any time that it won't be held after all.

    Skaters will be doing their same programs for individual events and the team event, right? I would feel more positive about it if the programs were different. The idea of individual skaters or pair/dance teams having to skate the program they may have dreamed would earn them Olympic gold in a team event (or even just a good Olympic FP) just doesn't seem right. Skaters would have to hold back I would think - couldn't give their all in the team event, because what would be left? For example, imagine if Yagudin had skated MITIM in the team event the same way he day when he won Gold in Men's. Seems to me it would really water down the excitement of the Men's FP for the audience and be hard for the skater to recreate the moment.
     
  24. Domshabfan

    Domshabfan Well-Known Member

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    Well, same argument can be made in all sports with team event. So according to your argument a sport like artistic gymnastic an athlete will not be able to do more than one great performance in the competition. Yet, at times they perform the same routine 4 times. The floor performance still looks beautiful and exciting even though the athlete is performing for the 4th time in the same competition... and then again they have been competing with the same program whole season, so if they don't del it is important they can think of it as a small performance like say world cup B event and perform.Even then they don't like to compete in the team event they can forfeit their spot in the team and concentrate on individual performance. I don't think it is compulsory for them to perform.

    I am happy about the team events being held but i am really concerned about the implementation of the event. Athletes will learn to compete in team and individual events very quickly, i don't think we are giving them enough credit for their will power to do well.
     
  25. carriecmu0503

    carriecmu0503 Member

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    Even then they don't like to compete in the team event they can forfeit their spot in the team and concentrate on individual performance. I don't think it is compulsory for them to perform.

    The above statement is totally incorrect, unfirtunately. Athletes qualify for individual events based on the results of the team event. No team event would mean no individual events for the athlete. Additionally, in the US, gymnasts are chosen based on what they can contribute to the team. For example, in 2004, the reigning bars world champion was left off the Olympic team because it was thought she would not contribute as much to the team competition as some of the other available athletes.
     
  26. Domshabfan

    Domshabfan Well-Known Member

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    True in artistic gymnastics but not in Figure skating.
     
  27. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    I seriously doubt they will cancel the event but it looks at though it won't look anything like the World Team Trophy. They really should have waited until 2018 or 2022 to roll it out. I envision many confused spectators.
     
  28. alchemy void

    alchemy void Running away from POTO

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    Only figure skating fans could find reasons to bitch about adding an additional event to the Olympics. :blah:

    These are Olympic athletes, not fragile paper dolls. Give them an additional chance yo medal and they will savor it. Heck, it might take a little pressure off in the single events. At the very least I think it will help to raise the level of performance.

    As for the suggestion of skating different programs, it was tried at the Grand Prix Final 10 years ago. It was a boring shitshow and was quickly dropped.
     
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  29. Celine82

    Celine82 Well-Known Member

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    I agree, it seems very different from the previous World Team Trophy. Do we know if the ISU/Japanese Federation plan to run the one in April according to this new Team Event format? Or hold another such Team Event in 2012-2013?
     
  30. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

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    Well I hope they try this out before they foist it on the Olympics with the world watching.