Team competition at Sochi

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by That Don Guy, Dec 31, 2011.

  1. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    That begs the question... what's the tiebreaker if two countries have the same overall points? Total scores?
  2. Celine82

    Celine82 Well-Known Member

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    The document says

    ETA: Thinking about it, it doesn't seem fair at all given the differences in scores from one category to the other. If a team has a pair third, a lady 5th, a man 6th and a dance team 8th, the way I understand it is that they'd take the pair + lady scores ("2 best places"), even though the man could actually have a higher score... Yuck. They need to change that to "taking into consideration the 2 highest scores of the concerned Teams".
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2012
  3. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Sorry, I was taking best three of four, which isn't the way it will work.
  4. That Don Guy

    That Don Guy New Member

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    Where did you see that the team event is before the individual events?

    There will be a similar team event at the 2012 Youth Winter Olympics in Innsbruck in a few weeks, and the schedule says that the team event takes place after the individual events (where the exhibition would normally take place).

    Then again, there doesn't appear to be time to hold both rounds of the team event after the individual events. The Sochi 2014 site has a list of the dates on which figure skating will take place, and while they don't specify which events take place on what days, it looks like the first (SP) round of the team competition takes place the day between the Ice Dance LP and the Ladies SP.
    (It looks like: Pairs SP, off, Pairs LP, Men SP, off, Men LP, Dance SP, off, Dance LP, Team SP, Ladies SP, off, Ladies LP, Team LP - note the arena is not available on off days as it is also used for short track speed skating.)

    Remember, they still have two years to work out the details. I wouldn't be surprised if they end up deciding to use the individual events' short program results to determine the five teams that compete in the long program round (which would be held after the rest of the competition, in place of the exhibition).
  5. algonquin

    algonquin Well-Known Member

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    Are the federations on board with this idea or this being imposed on them by the ISU?
  6. johndockley92

    johndockley92 New Member

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    Precisely!

    SO based on last year's results, the US would have sent Jeremy, Mirai, Denney and Barret, and Hubbell & Hubbell to this event (Wow we would have done well LOL).
  7. barbk

    barbk Well-Known Member

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    They could do that, but I believe that they can not then use the SP scores according to the rules that apply for all Olympic sports.
  8. bek

    bek Guest

    I'm actually looking forward to the team competition; I think it could be a great addition to the sport, if its done right.
  9. Visaliakid

    Visaliakid Well-Known Member

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    The IOC will do the imposing of it's wishes on the ISU as to the scheduling of this new team event. President Cinquanta stated at the last meeting of the ISU Full Council that it was decided that the Team event would be held before any of the four individual disciplines. One can only assume that the IOC highly suggested the Team comp go first.
  10. aka_gerbil

    aka_gerbil Rooting for the Underdogs

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    Maybe it's just me, but I'm predicting there will be some sort of Level 4, +3 GOE drama to come out of this, perhaps with a few 10's for PCS.

    Someone is going to get ill when they beat someone in the team competetion but don't in the individual events. Someone who gets beat in both the team competition and individual event will claim that the judging of the team event affected the individual event... So on and so forth. ;)
  11. Jenna

    Jenna Well-Known Member

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    Yes! ITA. The team comp. of gymnastics is always enjoyable, and it seems as though this will be similar.
  12. Domshabfan

    Domshabfan Well-Known Member

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    Even schedule from the Wikipedia page does not match the result from Sochi games committee website. Even this will be updated since this was the initial schedule submitted by Sochi when bidding for the games, so close to games they will make these changes. One important aspect of the schedule is that ice-dancing back then was allotted 3 days, with CD fused with OD to form SD, the organisers have gained a day for team competition. For an additional day of team competition the organisers may have to use the closing ceremony day or forced to put 2 figure skating event on the same day, say Men's SP and Pairs FS. I don't think ISU will cancel Gala, it is one of the most enjoyable casual performance of the winter competition along with opening and closing ceremonies. As for competition starting before the opening ceremonies, I don't think ISU and IOC really likes the idea. It is only Men's football with 16 teams as opposed to other team sports with 12 teams that starts before the opening ceremony.
  13. Japanfan

    Japanfan Well-Known Member

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    I'm still trying to wrap my head around this event - expecting to hear at any time that it won't be held after all.

    Skaters will be doing their same programs for individual events and the team event, right? I would feel more positive about it if the programs were different. The idea of individual skaters or pair/dance teams having to skate the program they may have dreamed would earn them Olympic gold in a team event (or even just a good Olympic FP) just doesn't seem right. Skaters would have to hold back I would think - couldn't give their all in the team event, because what would be left? For example, imagine if Yagudin had skated MITIM in the team event the same way he day when he won Gold in Men's. Seems to me it would really water down the excitement of the Men's FP for the audience and be hard for the skater to recreate the moment.
  14. Domshabfan

    Domshabfan Well-Known Member

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    Well, same argument can be made in all sports with team event. So according to your argument a sport like artistic gymnastic an athlete will not be able to do more than one great performance in the competition. Yet, at times they perform the same routine 4 times. The floor performance still looks beautiful and exciting even though the athlete is performing for the 4th time in the same competition... and then again they have been competing with the same program whole season, so if they don't del it is important they can think of it as a small performance like say world cup B event and perform.Even then they don't like to compete in the team event they can forfeit their spot in the team and concentrate on individual performance. I don't think it is compulsory for them to perform.

    I am happy about the team events being held but i am really concerned about the implementation of the event. Athletes will learn to compete in team and individual events very quickly, i don't think we are giving them enough credit for their will power to do well.
  15. carriecmu0503

    carriecmu0503 New Member

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    Even then they don't like to compete in the team event they can forfeit their spot in the team and concentrate on individual performance. I don't think it is compulsory for them to perform.

    The above statement is totally incorrect, unfirtunately. Athletes qualify for individual events based on the results of the team event. No team event would mean no individual events for the athlete. Additionally, in the US, gymnasts are chosen based on what they can contribute to the team. For example, in 2004, the reigning bars world champion was left off the Olympic team because it was thought she would not contribute as much to the team competition as some of the other available athletes.
  16. Domshabfan

    Domshabfan Well-Known Member

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    True in artistic gymnastics but not in Figure skating.
  17. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    I seriously doubt they will cancel the event but it looks at though it won't look anything like the World Team Trophy. They really should have waited until 2018 or 2022 to roll it out. I envision many confused spectators.
  18. alchemy void

    alchemy void Well-Known Member

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    Only figure skating fans could find reasons to bitch about adding an additional event to the Olympics. :blah:

    These are Olympic athletes, not fragile paper dolls. Give them an additional chance yo medal and they will savor it. Heck, it might take a little pressure off in the single events. At the very least I think it will help to raise the level of performance.

    As for the suggestion of skating different programs, it was tried at the Grand Prix Final 10 years ago. It was a boring shitshow and was quickly dropped.
    Domshabfan, alilou, cygnus and 5 others like this.
  19. Celine82

    Celine82 Well-Known Member

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    I agree, it seems very different from the previous World Team Trophy. Do we know if the ISU/Japanese Federation plan to run the one in April according to this new Team Event format? Or hold another such Team Event in 2012-2013?
  20. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

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    Well I hope they try this out before they foist it on the Olympics with the world watching.
  21. Rock2

    Rock2 New Member

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    I love this event. Gives skaters the opportunity to compete on the Olympic ice before their main event. And, it can work, like gymnastics made it work. So much for some of the ladies not showing up until the second week to maximize their training time at home, though....

    On further thought, if I could rejigger the skating sched I would make the SP's also the qualifier for the team competition. Forget qualification based on 2013, etc. Just go with who has qualified for Sochi in their event. This adds drama to the SP which has lacked some since IJS because you can't lose the event in the SP so much anymore...so there's less at stake.
    So, Team Free would be the only added event.

    I'd also space everything out to give skaters ample time between events and I'd have all the SPs at the beginning. Think of most major events...all event 'prelims' in first week, all medal events second week. So, order would be:

    Pairs SP, Men SP, Dance SD, Ladies SP, Team Free, Pairs FP, Men FP, Dance FD, Ladies LP.

    Team Free takes six best teams based on SP scores and you have 6x4=24 skates in the team event on one evening.

    Just a thought...
  22. BigB08822

    BigB08822 Well-Known Member

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    I am still shaking my head at the people who think of the athletes as some horribly vulnerable and fragile little things that can't possibly expect to skate one more program without succumbing to utter exhaustion and dying a horrible death mid-ice in front of thousands. Just stop it! These are seasoned athletes. They train 6 days a week or more during the Olympic season. They do back to back run-throughs without breaks as practice all the time. Believe it or not, they even do run-throughs during practice at the events. Yes, full run throughs most of the time! I hope none of you watch swimming in the Summer Olympics. You might think it is torture with as many races as they swim. Michael Phelps won 8 gold medals and he had to go through qualifying for almost all of those races. OMG! And he didn't die!!
  23. lavenderblue

    lavenderblue Active Member

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    I thought the counterargument generally being proposed was more about the psychological element than physical exertion, which few seem to doubt elite skaters can handle.

    There are comparative arguments to be made with the gymnastics event, as both disciplines are artistic as well as athletic in nature, and it's appeared to work well enough there. That said, having been long accustomed to the idea in figure skating of athletes preparing for months or years in advance to give the performances of their lives as individuals (or duos) at the Olympic Games -- it's hard with no skating examples yet to know exactly how that might pan out in this new reality. Will the individual performances by those who participated in the team event come as emotional letdowns? Will skaters hold back in the team event? Will the general audience develop intense program exhaustion and give the sport its lowest ratings in televised Olympic history? ;)

    It's just something that needs to be seen, and it helps at least that the Youth Olympics will serve as a test run.
  24. manhn

    manhn Well-Known Member

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    OMG, they do this in swimming?!?! OMG, that's why I spend so much time watching swimming events on television! Not.

    And goodness, no more of the "They do it in gymnastics!?!?!" argument. Artistic (heh) gymnastics sucks. Maybe if they didn't have a team competition, the floor exercises wouldn't be so barfworthy.
  25. lavenderblue

    lavenderblue Active Member

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    Heh. Despite borrowing the claim of others above, I have minimal personal interest in gymnastics; if that's the real source of my floor routine ennui, I'm now wholeheartedly against the Sochi team event! ;)

    But as an ice dance fan first and foremost, and someone with more interest in the other disciplines in choreography than jumps, it is the artistic and emotional component that I wonder about, as far as achieving that height. I wonder what Mahler, for example, may have looked like in a team-event Olympics.
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2012
  26. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Bumping this up in response to this post in the U.S. Pairs thread:
    Only 1 entry will compete in each discipline per country for the short program (10 countries will qualify to compete in the SP and then will be cut to 5 after the short programs) in the team event in Sochi, according to this summary of Cinquanta's press conference at 2012 Worlds about WTT and the team event at the Sochi Olympics:
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2012
  27. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Copying more posts over:
  28. stjeaskategym

    stjeaskategym Well-Known Member

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    Can we think of any instances where a country would want a different skater doing the long? (aside from maybe fatigue) Seems kind of weird.
  29. starryxskies

    starryxskies New Member

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    I love the team idea, I love WTT and how free all the skaters are, cheering for each other. Just look at any WTT clips on youtube and you'll see how loose everyone gets. Countries cheering on other countries, etc etc I can't express how much I love this concept.

    Having that said, this event really needs to take place AFTER all the traditional singles/pairs events are over. It's the best way to close off the event before the gala. Also, I want to bring up the Japanese men. They'll have 3 strong medal contenders all vying for the Olympic gold medal. If only 1 of them are required to skate the team event (2 if they decide to rotate and be fair, stjeaskategym I think this would be that instance), it`s not that the Japan men (most likely to be Daisuke/Yuzuru/Kozuka) can't do it. It's that it'll be completely unfair for the skaters that need to exhaust themselves at the team event relative to the skater(s) who don't need to at all.

    Even the 0.01 point matters and I would hate for this to come down to that. The playing field should be completely leveled and fair going into the singles/pairs competitions.

    Injury makes for everything as well. As we saw at GPF with Ashley Wagner, if that was her team skate, she definitely would have the lower hand going into her own ladies singles event, if she would be able to skate at all. Poor girl was using crutches after the free skate. Whereas, if she injured herself at the singles event, she could be replaced with another skater for the team

    Of course, this would not apply to countries with only 1 qualifier for a discipline. In which I bring up the lone Russian man Plushenko. Let's face it, unless a miracle happens, Russia will only have 1 spot for Men's and baring injury, the one going would be Plu. His would-be 31 year old body is not made to skate his 2 programs twice at 100%. Look at how many competitions he skips out on just to maintain his body. He'll be exhausted after the team event that he'll have no chances for a gold medal by the time the Men's Singles event starts.

    Figure skating can't be directly compared to gymnastics in the sense that the nature is different. Skaters are constantly moving for a longer period and is all about stamina.
    I just don't understand why the ISU would want to tarnish skaters' chances at a singles/pairs medal by exhausting only some of the skaters at the team event. Yes you get to skate for your country but you'll just end up at a disadvantage for your own event. This is especially unfair if all country qualifiers are Gold medal contenders a la Japanese men. Chan would be disadvantaged as well compared to most of his competition. Fernandez obviously would not even be competing at the team event.

    Why WTT works is because skaters have so much time after world championships to continue to refine their programs and skate it for the last time in a "fun and relaxed" setting.

    Basically, I'm completely for the team event if it's the last event before the gala. Otherwise, there's just too much at stake.
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2012
  30. professordeb

    professordeb Well-Known Member

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    Well said! And I'm completely on board with what I bolded in your post.
  31. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^

    I completely agree that a team event in fs at Sochi should take place after the singles and pairs events. You are right that fs is NOT gymnastics in any way, shape or form. A team event in fs is an entirely different entity than a team event in gymnastics. Gymnasts are trained to perform on various apparatus for a much shorter period of time than skaters perform on the ice in a sp and a fp. Figure skaters exert a great deal more energy during a sp and even more during a fp than gymnasts exert on a single apparatus. And, after their brief "exercise" routine on an apparatus, gymnasts have a chance to rest before moving on to the next apparatus. Gymnasts also have an opportunity to build strength on the various apparatus during the opening team event, toward peaking in the single and all-around events. However, that would definitely NOT be the case for figure skaters -- they would be worn out after exerting so much energy if the team event was held first, ESPECIALLY for such an event taking place FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER combined with the singles and pairs disciplines, and at an Olympics to boot!!!

    The structure of gymnastics events suits that particular sport. It DOES NOT suit figure skating. But, is anybody who has power over the decision-making process actually listening?!
  32. starryxskies

    starryxskies New Member

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    To be honest, no one is listening. If they had any sense, the team event wouldn't be in the beginning at all.

    I do believe in doing something rather than nothing, even if it has little influence. So I know you can send the ISU a message on their website under the "Contact" tab. It's not like moving the timeline of the events is anything too crazy.
    http://www.isu.org/vsite/vform/page...520-221743-313549-user-feedback-start,00.html
    You can defiitely send a message to the federations as well (Skate Canada, USFS), if they are concerned, they would definitely try to raise the issue.

    Russia honestly needs to exercise its power here and ask for this instead of 2 spots at Sochi, seriously. They can't afford to hurt their golden man.
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2012
  33. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^ I should think the skaters would complain about this too, although of course skaters tend to realize the sport treats them as children who should skate only, and "be seen but not heard."

    Guess it's worth a try posting a message on isu.org if a huge group of fans acted together in doing so, especially in the crucial months leading up to the actual organizing of the Olympic figure skating events.
  34. Sedge

    Sedge Active Member

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    The most likely location for the use of an alternate is in the Pairs part of the competition.
    Pairs skaters skate 4 segments in the first week of the Olympics..not to mention opening ceremonies.
  35. NadineWhite

    NadineWhite Well-Known Member

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    Hmmm I thought I recalled reading that the Team has the option to have one skater/pair/couple skate the SP/SD and then the other skates the FS/FD. In fact I remember how excited Cinquata was about this, how it would make it more exciting/dramatic, whom would get the derision or the cheers depending on how such & such did in their part of the competition. :watch:

    I have to agree because in all honesty I'm most looking forward to this part of the competition, and am hopeful that in years to come the Team Competition will overshadow the individual events.

    To me the best strategy would be to have the skater known as a SP skater skate that half, then the stronger skater skate the FS. Also, this would make it possible for more skaters to share in an Olympic Medal instead of just being given one opportunity, they are now given another. :)

    Lol now I'm just trying to decide whom would be the best to skate what half? :confused: It would be easy if it was Michelle & Sasha. The latter would skate the SP, whereas the former would skate the FS. :D Anyhow, if it was Jeremy & Evan that made the team, I would have Jeremy skate the SP, Evan the FS. Likewise, Agnes the SP, Ashley the FS. Of course if would be even more difficult to choose if 3 made the team, not just 2. :eek: One of them is going to be left out, that's for sure, and going home with no medal. :(

    Ooops, also in ice dance D/W would be the easiest choice, but then there is S/S, whom could possibly skate the SD, with D/W the FD, and (knock on wood) both would get an Olympic Medal. :) For pairs it gets tricky, the hardest to choose, depending on whom makes the Team, and how good of shape they are in. If by some miracle D/S made the Team I would obviously have them skate the SP, with D/C or C/S skating the LP. Then there's Rockne Brubaker, will he come blazing back next year with a new partner? He already has the international cred. with the judges, rightfully so, and he is a sentimental favorite, having struck out making the last Olympic Team. We shall see...
  36. Theatregirl1122

    Theatregirl1122 Well-Known Member

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    I can't imagine splitting any event unless you either had two very evenly matched skaters/teams and wanted to lessen the burden on each one (I could see this happening with D&R and MT&M for Canada at full strength), one skater is very consistently better at the FS and the other at the SP (if the team event had existed in 2006, the US might have done this with Evan and Johnny), or the team can actually afford to throw points away.

    I can't, for example, see this happening with D&W and the Shibs as of right now. The two teams are not at all evenly matched. And the US cannot afford to throw away the points they'd lose from having the shibs skate one program. In the US, I'd expect the only way it would happen is if we end up with two closely matched men or if another pair improves to the point that they regularly beat D&C in at least segments of the competition. But, the USA being the USA, they will probably just send the national champ in each discipline.

    Canada will absolutely not switch out in Men. In Ladies, even if they have someone to switch out, every other lady is a bad bet right now. In dance, I'd be shocked if they left any of V&M's potential points on the table even with how strong W&P are. In pairs, it's a possibility if MT&M and D&R go back and forth during the season.

    Russia will likely have only one man. Unless K&S look stronger next year, they will probably want V&T to do the whole thing although V&T may want the break. In dance, it is possible although they'll most likely be pushing B&S for a medal by then (unless things switch with I&K) so they'll be hoping the two teams aren't scoring at the same level. I could see them switching in ladies depending on who is on the team and who looks strong next year.

    France really has only one option in Dance and men. Pairs is a bit of a mess. And Ladies they may have two options.

    Italy has one option in Ladies, Dance, and Pairs. And the men are a mess.

    I'd expect that Russia, the USA, and Italy will gain a lot of points on the other two in Ladies. It'll depend on the day who comes out the best. In men, Canada will have a huge advantage. The USA, Russia, and Canada are all sort of a question mark. And Italy is in even worse shape. In pairs, Russia should gain some points over Canada who will gain some over the USA and Italy, who will gain a bunch over France. In dance, the US and Canada will most likely gain a bunch over France and Russia who will gain a bit more over Italy.

    My guess is that it will be difficult, but not impossible, for France and Italy to medal. The USA, Canada, and Russia will be the favorites to medal but the majority of team members will be fairly inconsistent.

    Right now, I'm more worried about Men for the USA. A healthy D&C have a very good shot at a top 10 worlds level score. None of the US men are consistent enough to feel comfortable with what they will deliver in a team situation.
  37. starryxskies

    starryxskies New Member

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    Not too sure if these are the latest rules but it says that a country can only swap skaters between SP/LP for a max of 2 disciplines (under 3.2.1)
    http://corporate.olympics.com.au/files/dmfile/ISU_FigureSkating_Sochi2014_QualSystems_Dec2011_web.pdf

    That's a bit of a problem =/

    Federations won't have a say in who to send to the SP because they'll have to have the 2 or 3 qualifiers battle it out
    So they'll have to skate their SP a number of 3 times during the olympics...? Someone burn these rules immediately.
  38. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    Doesn't look like it. Those rules don't say that the 2 or 3 entries have to battle it out on the ice, nor is there any indication that the Olympic venue would provide ice time for them to do so. It just says that the federations must declare which skater will compete the short program by 10 AM the day before. They could base that decision by watching practices, but they could just as well flip coins if they prefer.
  39. starryxskies

    starryxskies New Member

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    Hmm, I reread that again and it does seem like that's what it says. The wording of it is a little weird. I'm little more relaxed now but the the entire idea is still implemented completely wrong. They should really wait for the traditional events to finish and use the combined scores (or higher of the 2 or 3 in the SP and LP, if they are different) to see who makes the team event.

    Is there any country that's strong with multiple skaters within a discipline that would require switching skaters for more than max 2 disciplines? Because I guess the 2 is enough. Even Japan only really needs 2, they don't even have a second dance or pairs team. Canada only needs 1, maybe 2 (pairs, maybe dance). US also seems to only need 2 (mens, ladies). Russia will be the one that might require 3 (pairs, ladies, dance) but their dance is weak and ladies are behind. There just won't be any room to wiggle with the limitation.
  40. Theatregirl1122

    Theatregirl1122 Well-Known Member

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    I agree with gkelly. I'm not sure where you're getting that the skaters have to battle it out on the ice, starryxskies. That just gives the deadline by which the teams have to be named for the SP.

    And yes, they can only swap out 2 teams/skaters between the SP and LP but I don't think there are any teams consistently strong enough to want more than that.

    ETA:

    Japan would have to make the LP to need to switch anyone at all. With no pair team and a very weak dance team, that is sort of unlikely.