Team competition at Sochi

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by That Don Guy, Dec 31, 2011.

  1. That Don Guy

    That Don Guy New Member

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    Sorry if this is "old news," but there doesn't seem to be a search function on this forum...
    Anyway, buried in the figure skating qualifying procedures for Sochi (the short version: 75% of the spots filled through the 2013 Worlds, and the remaining 25% through the 2013 Nebelhorn Trophy), are the instructions for the "team competition" for Sochi.

    According to the document, there will be 10 countries (which will qualify based on the 2013-14 ISU Grand Prix events and the 2013 Worlds / Europeans / Four Continents), which enter one man, one woman, one pair, and one dance couple, each of which skate a short program (presumably separately from the non-team competitions for those disciplines); the top five teams (based on 10 for first, 9 for second, and so on) then skate a free skate/dance, and the placing points are added to the short program placing points to determine the final results.

    The qualifying documents (for speed skating as well as figure skating) are available in a ZIP file here. (The details on the team competition are in an appendix near the end.)
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  2. BigB08822

    BigB08822 Well-Known Member

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    Glad to find out more detail. I was guessing they would just use the results of selected skaters during their normal competition. For example, if the U.S. selected Wagner, Abbott, D/W and E/L then just use their placements (or points totals) and after the last event (ladies) you can name the medalists. It might seem pointless but this would appeal to people who think figure skaters are so fragile that they can't possible skate another program or two while in Russia. I like this more, though, a separate competition. I do wonder how they will squeeze it in. Before or after individual events?
  3. whoa

    whoa Member

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    Thanks for the update! I'm curious as to how this is going to work out in reality. It'll be cut from 10 nations to five to the top three? Not a fan of the idea at all, since I think the Olympic medals should go to the best individual figure skaters only, but we'll see what this is like!

    FYI - I don't know if you can search through the entire FSU forum, but in Great Skate Debate (and presumably any other section), there's a search function in the upper right corner ("Search This Forum").
  4. That Don Guy

    That Don Guy New Member

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    I wonder how they're going to find time to do it. Right now, the Sochi 2014 schedule has the figure skating/short track speed skating venue having events every day.

    I was going to say that they would probably change the rules and just use the "individual" event performances towards the team event, but they can't, as all of the short programs have to be done before any of the free skates (since the short programs determine which five teams advance to the free skate portion).
  5. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

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    I think it might backfire to have skaters reuse their programs. A lot of casual fans don't realize that you keep the same program for multiple competitions. The ones I know who don't realize this are always disappointed when they find it out, too!

    Are there even 10 countries that compete in all four disciplines at this level? (I know it's lazy to ask, but I am betting someone on this board knows the answer and can point to stats, ha ha ha.)
  6. Sedge

    Sedge Active Member

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    My understanding is that the team event takes place before the other disciplines.
    You are right about the venue of Short track and FIGS being close to full ( I believe there is only 1 dark day).
    They may have to resort to skating the team event before the opening ceremonies..like some of the team events in the Summer Olympics.
  7. ChelleC

    ChelleC Well-Known Member

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    Looking at the results from the 2011 World Championships, yes. If I counted right, I counted 10 countries with competitors in all four disciplines.

    US
    Russia
    Japan
    Germany
    Canada
    China
    Italy
    France
    Great Britain
    Czech Republic

    Of course the number could be higher or lower by 2014.
  8. Amy L

    Amy L Well-Known Member

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    Japan probably won't have a pair team in 2014, since it would take a total overhaul of Japanese immigration law for Mervin Tran to get citizenship in time.

    What's Ondrej Hotarek's status? I know there are other Italian pair teams, but I prefer Berton/Hotarek...
  9. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    I thought it was interesting in that there can be partial teams which I beleive could compete with just Men Pairs and Ladies and see what happens.
  10. manhn

    manhn Well-Known Member

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    Well, then what would stop countries from having all men, then? Someone like Kevin Reynolds would still get a way higher score in his LP than, say, Virtue/Moir.
  11. Jammers

    Jammers Well-Known Member

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    The team competition seems to me to be joke. Can you imagine someone like Rachael Flatt winning a gold medal if she's on the US team? She will have as many Olympic Gold medals as someone like Yuna Kim. :confused:
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  12. That Don Guy

    That Don Guy New Member

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    Each team is allowed only one skater/pair per discipline. The team cannot have, say, four men and no one in the other three disciplines.

    A team can leave one discipline out for whatever reason, although if a country that qualifies for the team competition does not qualify in each of the four "individual" disciplines (although the way the qualifying system works, this seems unlikely), the country can include a skater/pair in those disciplines just for the team competition.
  13. galaxygirl

    galaxygirl Ma name's Beckeh

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    And more than Michelle Kwan.
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  14. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    Austria and Bulgaria did too. But their current pairs and dance couples are not going to draw in viewers. :shuffle:

    I suppose Japan might be able to scrape together an Olympics-eligible pair, but I wouldn't expect them to be anywhere near as good as Takahashi and Tran.

    ETA:

    It appears that the ISU is planning on scapping the Exhibition in order to have enough time to stage the Team Competition.

    Personally, I would rather watch Javier Fernández, Yuna Kim, Mao Asada, Daisuke Takahashi, and/or Takahiko Kozuka doing exhibition programs than watch Kristina Tremasova & Dimitar Lichev doing their Short Dance and Stina Martini & Severin Kiefer doing their Short Program.

    YMMV.
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2012
  15. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    There are already skaters not as good as Kwan (or Kim) who have OGMs, so I don't see what the big deal is.

    Several sports have the equivalent of a team competition, which means weaker athletes can win medals they likely wouldn't win competing individually: track, swimming, artistic and rhythmic gymnastics. I have no problem with skaters getting the same opportunity. While it's nice to have a gala, I think it's actually easier to justify the inclusion of a team event in the Olympics than a gala held outside the competition.

    Spain now has a junior pair, so they might have a shot at fielding a team, too.
  16. Domshabfan

    Domshabfan Well-Known Member

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    I agree, i have no idea my every post end up being about Kwan:drama:. As for Kim, she can always chose compete again, no body is stopping her from competing again. IOC is introducing few team sports, so this is not a surprise. They also bringing Luge team event, a new event more along the lines time trial relay. Bobsleigh and Alpine skiing also tried to have a team event but failed. If i was skater i would be glad that i have ore chance to win a medal.
  17. Celine82

    Celine82 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the link to the document.

    Is that the "Japan" rule? Not sure if they'd still want to enter a Team with only 3 entries. Would they be forced to?

    I'm confused. Does this mean that a country that qualified a Team according to the rules but only have one pair (for example) qualified for the Olympics would still be able to send the Team with an extra man, extra lady and extra dance team?

    Not only is it forbidden to enter more than 1 skater/team per discipline, but it's not the scores that matter anyway, it's the placements (1st = 10 points, 2nd = 9 points, 3rd = 8 points, etc. and then all points are added). So V/M would very likely fare much better than Reynolds. ;)
  18. miffy

    miffy Well-Known Member

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    I am not quite sure I understand it, if the team is chosen by scores from the previous competitions are they qualifying the skaters who scored, or just a spot for their country? IIRC they said it would be the same skaters as were in the individual event (which seems a shame, expecially if some of the top skaters don't actually want to do the team event.)

    I am really confused actually - using GB as an example, if they qualified a team but didn't qualify spots for the individual events (last time we had a lady, pair and 2 in dance but no man) what would happen? Bringing in an extra man and his coaches would mean more rooms are needd in the village, etc.
  19. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    It says they can only have one competitor per discipline, so I guess they would just compete three events and forfeit the spot in men.

    Theoretically a country with 3 competitors could qualify above a country with 4 based on the rules posted upthread. Say that in the team event Japan wins ladies and men, places last in dance, and has no pair. That would be 21 points (10 each for the singles and 1 point for the dancers). Then say Czech Republic qualifies a team and places 9th in pairs, 9th in dance, 9th in ladies, and 4th in men. That would be 13 points so they would finish behind Japan.
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2012
  20. Domshabfan

    Domshabfan Well-Known Member

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    No, they are allowed to enter an additional team in the event they have not qualified but the team can compete only in the team event and not in the individual event.

    Rules are very clear on this, the team is also allowed to bring an additional team, but they cannot be staying at the village.
  21. centerpt1

    centerpt1 Active Member

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    So- a country could have one of thier qualified pair teams skate the short, and another team skate the free? As long as they were identified after the short?

    It doesn't make sense to have the team competition first. It would seenm to give unfair advantage/disadvantage to those participating in the team event.
  22. pingu

    pingu Well-Known Member

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    He has the italian citizenship ;)
  23. Domshabfan

    Domshabfan Well-Known Member

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    So according to the idiotic system ISU has devised a team that wins Short program has a better chance winning the whole thing since number of teams in the Free skate section reduces to 5 teams as supposed to 10 in the short P/D section.

    So using the 2011 world championships results.
    countries Ladies Mens I/D Pairs total
    US 8 5 10 5 28
    Russia 9 8 7 8 32
    Japan 10* 9 4 7 30
    Germany 5 4 5 9 23
    Canada 4 10 9 6 29
    China 3 2 3 10 18
    Italy 7 3 6 4 20
    France 6 7 8 1 22
    Great Britain 2 1 2 2 7
    Czech Republic 1 6 1 3 11

    Czech had no ladies athlete at the last world championships, and Tran has magically received citizenship to compete for Japan in my list.

    So Russia, Japan, Canada, USA and Germany move to the Free section.

    Russia 32 9 8 8 9 66
    Japan 30 10 9 6 6 61
    Canada 29 6 10 9 7 61
    USA 28 8 7 10 8 61
    Germany 23 7 6 7 10 53

    So Apart from the tie breaker thing coming into play, a skater can make a complete mess in the FD/ FS and still get 6 points by finishing bottom of the pile, say 60 points behind the leader in the section, the difference between the first and last is 4 points. This could still be enough for them to win the title. Whole thing looks like a Short Dance/ program competition. It is tilted towards the results of that section, if an athlete make a mess and finishes last the difference here is 9 points. So for the SP it is all about staking team in between you and your major competitor, and once FS starts some of these teams may disappear altogether.

    ISU is inviting trouble with this format, especially since we get the score of these teams and anyone can total the whole segments score displayed and come up an aggregate score of all 8 sections of the team. Then again, when did weightage of both SP and LP become equal in terms of points. Even during the 6.0 era there was difference in weightage of these sectionals. So if a team wins, say ladies section in total points that does not count towards the total score. So final placement in ladies, Mens, Dance and pairs is of little importance.

    I think either ISU should allow all the teams to compete in the free dance/ Free skate of the team championships or use cumulative scoring system, count all the sectional scores like did in Japan Open. So add all the SD and SP scores, then find the best 5 teams and then reduce the size of teams to 5 for the LP. Then add the total LP scores to the SP scores.
  24. Domshabfan

    Domshabfan Well-Known Member

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    As long as this team is also qualified to the Olympics games by normal qualification mechanism. A team can make two substitution for the FS/FD, they can change both singles skaters, both couples (Ice dance and pair) or a couple and single's skater.

    As for sec on point i think they are getting an additional chance of winning a medal, which is huge. Even though now skating fans are not taking team title with huge importance. However the medal won is still an Olympic medal. Which could make your life is most countries.
  25. casken

    casken Well-Known Member

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    I hate hate hate that this takes place before the individual events.

    Just wait for some favorite, or favorites, to skate brilliantly in the team event but then blow it when it comes time for the solo OGM.

    The whole team event will either be moved back or completely scrapped when, not if, that happens.
  26. fan

    fan Active Member

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    Ditto. If they're going to do it at all, which i'm not a fan of, they should move it back behind the individual events (which these skaters have been preparing for all of their lives!)
  27. miffy

    miffy Well-Known Member

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    Many thanks for the explanation, I think that is good news :)
  28. Jenna

    Jenna Well-Known Member

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    Actually, the team event will provide skaters with an opportunity to compete on the Olympic ice surface, without the pressure of it being their individual event. These skaters could have the advantage, to be honest!
  29. johndockley92

    johndockley92 New Member

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    I wish that the skaters in this event could not compete in other divisions (IE; Patrick Chan would not enter the team event because he'd be in the singles event, Canada would send a different male skater to represent them in the team event). This would make it so that countries with deeper fields of skaters get rewarded more and hopefully make it so that countries like Japan spend more time developing dance and pairs skaters. I also feel that this would allow more skaters to become involved and become a part of the Olympic experience.
  30. manhn

    manhn Well-Known Member

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    So, the 4th ranked Russian pair or the 4th ranked Japanese male would be in the team event? So, the 4th ranked Russian pair can win a gold medal, but not Kavaguti/Smirnov? Fantastic! What a fun event!

    No pressure? Someone like Phaneuf or Czisny (assuming they make the team) would have a lot more pressure in the team event than the individual event.
  31. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    Not to put down the top ranked skaters but :shuffle: I doubt they wouldn't want the opportunity to get a chance to win two gold medals if they had the chance. For instance: Patrick Chan wouldn't want to sit out the team event to conserve his energy and give his spot to a lower ranked skater just to see if he could win won later. What if he messes up and goes home with nothing? I doubt he would risk it, I doubt any skater would risk it.

    My guess it is if any of the skaters have the opportunity to skate any win ANY color medal...they will.
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  32. BigB08822

    BigB08822 Well-Known Member

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    So what if someone like Rachael Flatt has a gold medal because of the team event? It doesn't make her a better skater than Michelle Kwan or an equal skater to Yu Na Kim. That is absurd. Is Amanda Borden (gymnast) as good as Nadia just because she has a team gold medal? NO! Borden never medaled individually or even competed in the AA on the World or Olympic stage. People will have to use logic and look at skater's accomplishments. A team gold medal will not be the same as an individual gold medal.

    Gymnastics always has the team event first. Partly as qualifying for the other events but also as a good warm up and introduction to the apparatus for the athletes. The team event will allow the skaters to get a feel for the ice, arena, cameras, crowd, etc. If an athlete skates lights out during the team and blows it during the individual competition that is their own fault. If they do a perfect practice run through and then blow it during the event is it somehow the organizers fault for holding that practice when they did? These athletes are in peak shape and should be able to do perfect routines during all run throughs, multiple times a day. Those that can't are going to have a harder time winning.
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  33. Skate Talker

    Skate Talker Well-Known Member

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    So why don't they weight the Free Programs double the placement points of the short programs to make the Free worth 2/3 as is more normal. For example winning free scores 20 points, 2nd 18, etc. That would eliminate the scenario where blowing the free still leads to a win, wouldn't it?
  34. skipaway

    skipaway Well-Known Member

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    I've read the thread, but help me out here...if a team ie..Japan, doesn't have a qualifying pairs team, then how can they be in the team competition? Sorry, my head is about to explode...i'm so confused
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  35. l'etoile

    l'etoile New Member

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    Another thanks from me to you Domshabfan for the explanation!

    What I'm wondering is, how about other Olympic sports that have team competition? Do they have team events after individual events or vice versa?
    I think skaters should be able to show their A game in individual events and consider it as their priority. But I do like the idea of team events:rolleyes:
  36. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Yes, a country can choose to compete in three out of four disciplines.

    See upthread for Domshabfan's breakdown of last year's Worlds for how Japan is a likely medal contender with three entries.
  37. Celine82

    Celine82 Well-Known Member

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    But that includes a pair. Without the pair, they might make it to the free, but I doubt they could beat any of Russia, Canada or the US with only 3 entries in the LP because they'd have at least 7 points (4th and worst place for any of the 4 other countries in the pairs LP) to make up with their man, lady and ice dancers.

    The way I understand it, though, Takahashi/Tran's results will count toward qualifying Japan for the Olympic Team Event.

    As for the Team Event being before the single events, among the pros and cons, I just want to point out that Kozuka and Brezina had to go through the qualifying round at Worlds last year. Look how things turned out for them in the "real" LP after their "extra practice"...
  38. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    Without an Olympic-eligible pair of the caliber of Takahashi & Tran, Japan probably isn't a medal contender.

    If you give Japan one point instead of seven in the first round, it leaves them behind Germany and France, and well back of Russia, Canada, and the U.S.

    Even if you assume Japan somehow makes to the second round, they would still finish still far behind the top three on points.

    Russia, Canada, and the U.S. are the three clear favorites for the medals.
  39. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    According to Domshabfan's tally, there would be a difference of three points using the Reeds' placement instead of Takahashi/Tran's, and that would be only three points off Canada and the US for bronze.

    Obviously, if the FS is weighted higher, then Japan won't have a chance with three of four disciplines.

    I don't think anyone will catch Russia, and it's possible the US will gain a point or two, but ice is slippery, and I can't imagine Japan not sending a team because they are down a pair.
  40. Celine82

    Celine82 Well-Known Member

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    What does the Reeds's placement have to do with Takahashi/Tran's "non-placement"? :confused:

    If you simply remove the pair from Domshabfan's calculations, you get:

    Japan still advances to the LP (same score as Germany, above France) but then:

    So they're clearly last of the five.

    (Canada and the US would also each get an extra point as their pairs would be one rank higher in the SP.)
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2012