Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Mevrouw, Dec 18, 2012.
A nail in the coffin to pointless fan speculation that was completely unrealistic.
So sorry to hear of the split. I really enjoyed this pairing and hope they both get new partners soon especially Mervin.
Amelie Loop Lacoste has the whole set of triples on paper. I don't think she is a good match but we have seen so many unmatched skaters pairing up because of that irrational thing called love.
Love can definitely make you overlook scratchy crossovers or bad jumping technique, but trying to lift an additional 25 lbs overhead would be pretty hard to ignore -and those dancing hearts can turn into stars of pain pretty quickly. Just sayin' .
Absolutely, without question, times a million.
In a way, you're both correct - but remember, there's a difference between learning pair elements and executing pair elements.
Think of it this way: the man serves as the foundation for all pair elements. Would you prefer that the foundation of your house was made of jello and the first floor of concrete, or that the foundation of your house was concrete and the first floor was jello? Obviously, you'd prefer to have both a solid foundation and first floor, but if your foundation is shaky, it doesn't matter how solid the first floor is: it will collapse.
Okay, now say that you have a solid concrete foundation and a solid first floor made with wood framing, drywall, electrical, plumbing, paint, appliances, and that dog filled with jello. Is is "harder" to be a concrete foundation or a complicated first floor? Certainly there is a lot more that can go wrong on the first floor - and if something goes wrong, like the refrigerator explodes with enough force that it shakes the house, the foundation provides the support to keep the house from shifting too much and falling down on the occupants.
In other words: it's much harder to learn the boy's role in pairs; the girl can't do much of anything unless the boy is serving as the foundation, and the boy needs to understand how to react when any of the 18 trillion things that can go wrong actually go wrong. That learning curve is difficult to rush. Once both skaters understand how to skate pairs, the boy's role is indeed less complex than the girl's: it is easier to throw someone than to be thrown, although when the boy messes up, he looks fine while his partner is sitting on the ice and everyone is saying Jane fell on the throw. (Good pair boys say: we fell on the throw. The best pair boys say: we fell on the throw, but Jane's the one with the bruise. I'm going to get her some ice.) However, if the boy doesn't know how to throw, the girl's ability to do the jump or throw doesn't matter: not only does the girl still need to execute her complex part of the throw, but first she also needs to correct for the boy's mistakes. (Exception: Juvenile Pairs where the boy takes his hands entirely off the girl and then she does the "throw" Axel, and he beams. I dare you to avoid smiling when that happens.)
Lifts and twists are serious, serious safety issues. There are so many components to a twist. As I said, part of the complexity here is understanding how to react to mistakes without overreacting. Pair boy's #1 job: keep his partner's head from hitting the ice.
Thanks for the thought!
I want a "best pair boy" of my own! Although I have no pair boy to blame for my frequent falls on the ice.
Nice post, 5Ali3!
According to this, the JSF is doing the tryout for Takahashi's new partner. A new team could be formed by the end of this month. Preferences are given to Japanese citizens.
This is an article in “Jiji Press” in Japan
Translating to English from Japanese.
The Japan Federation does special consideration for Narumi Takahashi
16th January 2013, JST
In 16th January, Japan Skating Federation opened the board of directors in Tokyo Metropolitan area and approved that Narumi Takahashi of Pair who canceled a combination with Marvin Tran (Canada), remains as the certified player of JSF. She is demoted temporarily from the special certified player of the best rank of JSF, but as soon as a new partner is decided, she will be returned to the said rank.
The search of the new partner for Takahashi is being proceeded with at present.
Hidehito Ito, the director of figure skating of JSF suggested that selection of the personnel is being narrowed down, saying that they are proceeding so as to be able to release in the end of January or the head of February. Takahashi and Tran won the third place in the Worlds last season but canceled the Pair in December last year.
The Japan Federation does special consideration for Narumi Takahashi
"JSF treats Narumi Takahashi of Pair with golden handcuffs "
This is an article in "Sports Nippon" in Japan.
Translating to English from Japanese.
JSF treats Narumi Takahashi of Pair with golden handcuffs
Jan. 16, 2013, JST
On the board of directors on the 16th January, Japan Skating Federation approved the special treatment which Narumi Takahashi of Pair, who canceled the combination with Marvin Tran (Canada), is temporarily demoted to the certified player from the special certified player as the best rank of JSF but is returned to the special certified player as soon as her new partner is found out.
According to Hidetoshi Ito the director of figure skating of JSF, it says that they are doing a tryout so as to be able to release the forming of the new pair in the end of this month, too, if it is early.
As for the selection of the personnel, they seem to give priority to the Japanese because it may be able to participate to the Sochi Olympics of next year.
“JSF treats Narumi Takahashi of Pair with golden handcuffs”
Very curious to see who's going to try-out with her. Who will be conducting the try-outs? Japanese pair coaches?
They don't exist at the moment.
For a pairs lady and a single man with no prior pairs experience, what elements can they try out with?
Off-ice and padded mats are your friends for these try-outs. Obviously, basic stroking, footwork, SBS jumps and spins are all fair game -and give you a good idea of how well matched your timing is.
Physical strength and basic skills (skating, spins, jumps) are what they should examine. Takahashi wouldn't be able to resume training until February. So they can't see the matching at this point.
Since JSF is not sending a pair to the world championships this year, does this mean they don't have anyone qualified for Sochi no matter what? Or can they have a pair qualified for the team competition only? I forgot...
also, I don't understand why a strong and rich federation like the JSF does not do more to develop pairs and dance? More medals is better, right? Their ladies and men programs are pretty solid - you should think they could try and convince some non Japanese pairs coaches to come to Japan? Dance too?
They can always try qualifying at the designated qualifying competition in the autumn. It's Nebelhorn this time around.
I'm no expert in the subject, but .... (1) When has the JSF ever encouraged foreigners to come work as coaches in Japan? (2) At least for pairs, you need to have men of a certain height and upper body strength.
If North Korea and China can produce male pair skaters, I suppose Japan can too, but it's not as if there is a ready supply of them in the Japanese skating system.
I think ice time has also been mentioned as an issue.
Even if they don't have a team qualified in London or Nebelhorn, they can assign a team to the team event. That's one of the provisions in the Sochi announcement. Whether there will be TES minimums or whether the assigned skaters will be subject to them is TBD, and if they are, based on current championship rules, chances are they will be required by a date close to the start of the Olympics.
Cedric (?) Bonheur ? ...can't recall his first name. Then he shaked for a couple of years with Vanessa James.
Sorry...brain cramp....Yannik Bonheur!
Apologies if my question has been answered somewhere else, but just wanted to know which FS Federation has jurisdiction over Mervin Tran--Japan or Canada?--since he's been competing for Japan the last few years before T&T split. If Japan has jurisdiction, how much of a problem would it be for him to be released so he can skate for Canada? (Posted in this thread since it concerns Tran and not Takahashi and her new partner.)
It's interesting, because my interpretation of the wording of Rule 109, which provides for an ISU exception to be granted to a skater or team whose old Federation wouldn't release them (after two years), seems written for the case of someone who attains new citizenship and wants to skate for that country, rather than someone who had been skating for another country and wants to compete for the country of citizenship.
That would only be applicable if the Japanese Fed refused to release him. Although she dumped him, presumably with at least their support, they still might not want their investment in him to help defeat their new team down the road, so they could delay or refuse a release.
Or Tran could continue to skate for Japan and find another Japanese partner.
Only if he and that new partner had no intention of ever competing at an Olympic Games.
I guess I just don't understand why skaters would enter a mixed-country partnership while knowing that obtaining the proper citizenship to compete at the Olympics would be almost impossible to obtain. Male skating partners are always in high demand; Tran could have found anyone inside of Canada but he with with Takahashi instead. I suppose if one never intends to compete at the Olympics it would be a non-issue, but if you're investing the time and effort to get to that level, why do it with so many prohibitions?
Tran was a singles skater who was asked by Gauthier and Richard to try out with Takahashi. He took the opportunity. The assumption is that their training was at least partially subsidized by the Japanese Federation. There was no guarantee that he would ever succeed as a Pairs skater.
As for why someone would go into a mixed citizenship partner, if the Olympics aren't the only goal for an athlete, or if he wouldn't have a realistic change to make the Olympics in his own country, there are plenty of reasons to skate for a Federation where there is less competition: neither Tran, nor Copely, Tobias, Tikhonov (until he teamed with Petrova), Markuntsev, and many others had a chance of getting regular international assignments, period. The ability to compete regularly and around the world is a compelling one. Even if he paid for all of his training, he got to go to multiple GP's and championships, and he got a lot more competitive experience than if his season ended with Canadian Nationals, and he was still paying for all of that training.
Now that he's had the foundation and is recognized as one of the best male Pairs skaters around, and he has a Worlds medal -- who was the last Canadian Pair to be on the Worlds podium? -- he would be competitive at Canadian Nationals with any decent new partner, and would have a shot at a 4C's spot, given how thin the field is in Canada at the moment.
Given how it started out, I guess I can see how maybe a small experiment turned into something much larger than Tran could have ever dreamed of. Hindsight is 20/20, after all.
But now that he's free and clear and is probably a pretty hot commodity on the partner search network, if he decided to go BACK to a non-Olympics eligible partnership, he'd be plain stupid. Unless he truly has no desire to compete at the Olympics, in which case he had better make sure his new partner doesn't want to either.
Dube/Davison - 2008.
Given Tran's tweets, I would be surprised if he competed for anyone other than Canada/
Actually the last Canadian pairs team to be on the world podium was Dube/Davison - not that long ago. If one argues that they skated lights out and benefited from some others' mistakes, that would be just as true of Takahashi/Tran. I don't think that inherently Tran is better than Davison, Radford or Moscovitch. They are all strong pairs partners.
But yes, Mervin was a singles skater who was approached by Richard Gauthier specifically as a pairs partner for Narumi. Narumi's extremely petite build meant that Mervin's relatively short height was not a problem; they clicked and had success. But it was a bit of luck, really, that they connected at all.
(edited to remove duplicate post)
and I was there
I was going to mention them, but then remembered that it was a bit of a fluke that M-T/M had a bad competition, which, of course, is always possible.
? ? MTM didn't compete until 2009/10.
Sorry, I read the second link said "Dube/Wolfe" as an example of a team that could get together with one relatively inexperienced partner and get to compete quickly.
He's a great skater but he's short for pairs and it will be really hard for him to find a suitably sized partner.
Uh-huh. And Hell could freeze over.
Mervin Tran had absolutely no experience in the pairs discipline when he was invited to try out with Narumi Takahashi. I don't think he even imagined that within five years he would be a Worlds medalist. And, when they first teamed up, they said that they understood that it was extremely unlikely that they would ever go to the Olympics. But with most (or perhaps all) of his training costs paid by the JSF and the chance to compete at NHK, Four Continents, and Worlds, he had an opportunity that he did not want to miss.
Trans is the same height as Robin Szolkowy (both are 5' 9").
Savchenko is tiny in person. The ISU bios have her at 152cm to Szolkowy's 175cm. Takahashi is listed at 146cm to Tran's 175cm. That's about 2 1/3 inches smaller than Savchenko. She must be smaller than Moskvina.
Savchenko is really tiny though. Not easy to find a decent partner that short.
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