Staviski on Ilynyh/Katsalapov's skate in NHK

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by TAHbKA, Oct 25, 2010.

  1. TAHbKA

    TAHbKA Well-Known Member

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    Ilinyh/Katsalapov lack self confidence

    2 times world champion Maxim Staviski who represented Bulgaria with Alena Denkova thinks the Russian pair Ilinyh/Katsalapov that finished 4th in the NHK are not yet skating like real professionals.

    The first GP event - NHK Trophy finished on Sunday in Nagoya. Zhulin's students the 16y.o. Ilinyh and 19y.o Katsalapov debuted in the seniors competition and became 4th.

    "I think Ilinyh and Katsalapov are technical skaters with decent programmes, who skate well and have a bright future", said Staviski during a phone talk with the RIA News journalist. "However, I see 2 problems. First of all they still skate like juniors. They lack self confidence and presentation. They don't express themselves as professionals.
    The second problem - they need to learn some new lifts. Everything they do is good, but not interesting. They more or less copy the lifts of Zhulin's previous pupils - Navka/Kostomarov and they yet did not come up with anything new. I shall repeat - they are technically good and skate great".

    Staviski called "a work process" the fact they received low technical grade for their free dance. "The low levels means Zhulin should open the rules book and sit with the stop watch, recalculate and measure everything. We used to do that after every competition" said the 2 times world champion.

    "It's a normal thing to do", he continued "I'm sure they will clean the programmes after the competition and it won't happen again. The skaters themselves have to calculate everything and use the stop watch so they won't underhold or overhold the positions".

    Staviski added that the subjective judging had it's part in the Japanese competition. "The caller has it's opition, but if you do everything 100% clean there is nothing the caller can do" he insisted.

    Ilinyh/Katsalapov's lost to Shibutanis who the Russians beat in the last junior worlds Staviskii called a not important issue "There is no complete objectiveness in Figure Skating", he explained. "Today they lost, tomorrow they'll win".

    According to Staviskii the Golden Walts which must be performed in the SD this year shouldn't be too hard for the young Russians

    "They have good edges", he repeated again. "Their skating elements are good. The fact they are just out of juniors... well they are not the only ones, everyone goes though that stage and it's hard. The skaters have to learn alot of new things. But the learning possible and is necessary".

    Staviskii used to work as Zhulin's assistance and is ready to help again with Ilinyh/Katsalapov. "I'm lacking time, but I can come and help. Think I can give some advice" he mentioned.
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2010
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  2. LadyNit

    LadyNit moving right along Staff Member

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    Thanks for providing the interview TAHbKA. xoxo
  3. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    Just being out of juniors didn't matter for the Shibutani's they won a medal and had a better debut than I/K. I/K not only need new lifts but better higher level lifts.

    Thanks for translation.
  4. barbk

    barbk Well-Known Member

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    Staviski's analysis was spot on, imo. I'm still puzzled by why so many coaches & choreographers seem to not follow the picky little details in the rules that would enable their skaters to garner more points. (Or maybe they do, and the skaters just don't execute?)
  5. MarieM

    MarieM Well-Known Member

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    Maybe because Igor's way it to make his students skate the same steps over and over again, never changing anything from one year to another ? Wich makes getting the levels too easy with some little adjustments ...
    While the european coach change a LOT of what they make their students skate and have more trouble getting the levels, in season's beginning. By the end of the season, they usually get the same levels if not more levels ....
    Different approach. One is gonna make ice dance die. The other isn't.$

    Shibutanis are boring to death. Like any team coached by I&M.
  6. manhn

    manhn Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, like I&K's lifts.
  7. taf2002

    taf2002 Well-Known Member

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    ALL I&M teams? No exceptions?
  8. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

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    I found I/K fascinating to watch, but I was struck by how little they looked at each other in the FD. Can't believe they are only 16 and 19.
  9. Asli

    Asli Well-Known Member

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    IMO I/K lost levels on the two of their lifts because they didn't hold the position long enough. That's what Maxim is saying when he says Zhulin must work with the stopwatch.

    There is nothing I/K can do about changing their own lifts. They are way, way too young to have a say in the choreography, so that is their coach's responsibility.
  10. elif

    elif Active Member

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  11. Tinami Amori

    Tinami Amori Well-Known Member

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    Shibutanis are not boring yet. They may be soon, but so far the two Sunshine Kids performed a clean charming LP, and have every disposition to be adored, now and in the near future, as cute panda-bears, Judy Garlands and Shirley Temples.

    They have propensity to graduate to the “charms” of Doris Day, or Amilie or various Hollywood “feel good movies” of the 50’s or fairy tale story characters. But I don’t see them going past those type-casts due to their shape, form, personalities and relationship. We will never see a convincing Carmina Burana from them, or Turandot, or La Reine Margot….

    I/K on the other hand will probably give us lots of drama and tension in their performances in the future........ not to mention as well soon they will give many American fans many head-aches as they start climbing up the podium...... :lol:
  12. ~tapdancer~

    ~tapdancer~ Well-Known Member

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    I doubt that. We North Americans are quite used to the Russian ice dancers climbing on the podium. It's a very new thing for us to have the 1 and 2 ice dance teams, we're enjoying it!
  13. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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  14. Tinami Amori

    Tinami Amori Well-Known Member

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    We Russians enjoying that too....:lol: Since it never happened for Americans until they got the Russian Coaches from Russian School of Ice Dancing.;)
  15. genevieve

    genevieve drinky typo pbp, closet hugger Staff Member

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    Which do you disagree with? That they have a bright future, or that they lack self-confidence/presenation and don't express themselves as professionals?

    I don't think they lack self-confidence (at all), but they did come across as very juniorish. I thought the 'professionals' comment was a bit harsh, but that might be a translation issue (THANKS TAHbKA :cheer: ), and overall I agree with the sentiment.
  16. ~tapdancer~

    ~tapdancer~ Well-Known Member

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    And I for one am thrilled with that! I love what Igor and Marina have done, I was following Igor's teams back in the 90s and enjoyed them a lot. Honestly, American ice dance back in the day was a bit dull with some exceptions...Blumberg/Seibert were amazing and always will be but we had absolutely no depth, the lower ranked teams were never competitive on the world stage.
  17. Mayra

    Mayra Well-Known Member

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    I took "professionals" to mean seasoned veterans. As in they are still juniorish/amateurs. *shrugs*

    Overall, I thought they looked hesitant and a little undertrained. Their programs clearly aren't soup yet and they have a lot of room to grow.

    IMO I&K and Zhulin are getting knocked around a little because many, myself included, expected them to come out like gangbusters right out of the gate and make a big splash in their senior debut. No doubt they impressed many, but certainly not to the extent that they wowed everyone last season.

    Who knows? Maybe this is Zhulin's plan to take the pressure and expectations off of them and let them grow at their own pace. :shuffle:
  18. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    The latter. Elena has tons of confidence! Their presentation and carriage is very mature, IMO. I don't see anything juniorish in their skating. They have flaws just like anyone else but they look like seniors with flaws. Cappellini & La Notte for example look juniorish, even though they've been out of juniors for 5 years. I&K's expression is natural, I don't feel like they are playing at ballet, I really get the sense of Elena being a prima ballerina (with ugly lifts :lol:) and Nikita presenting her, as a man.

    I don't really understand what he meant by "professionals" either.
  19. Taso

    Taso Well-Known Member

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    Actually, if you watch their FD from their first JGP last year it was actually quite shakey as well. She just sold the character so damn well that it didn't matter. I was hoping they'd come out and medal, but I bet you anything that by the end of the season they are going to look a million times better :) I'm not particularly worried for them
  20. JerseySlore

    JerseySlore Active Member

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    Staviski is right on the money. It would be cool for I/K to get more input from someone like him.
  21. Tak

    Tak Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the translation! It sounds like he's angling for a job to me - :)

    I see this is being discussed above, but what does he mean when he says they look like a junior team? I thought that meant they skate without real power and flow across the ice - and maybe with a weak interpretation of the music. They IN NO WAY skate like a junior team using this definition. So I wonder what he was talking about.
  22. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    If it were so easy and the changes were so few, we wouldn't hear such moaning every freaking year about how the many, many rule changes are so difficult to follow and adapt to and so beyond their understanding.
  23. Tak

    Tak Well-Known Member

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  24. Tak

    Tak Well-Known Member

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    Neither do I.

    I should have read this before I posted - I agree with everything you said. I thought they looked great in their senior debut. The biggest problem I have with them or their programs is the lifts in the FD :wall: which I'm sure will be fixed soon.
  25. TAHbKA

    TAHbKA Well-Known Member

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    Thanks god for that. Another Carmina Burana is the last thing we need right now.
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  26. Domshabfan

    Domshabfan Well-Known Member

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    Who was the technical specialist at NHK?
  27. Tak

    Tak Well-Known Member

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    From ISU website -

    Referee - Ms. Alla SHEKHOVTSEVA
    Technical Controller - Ms. Christine HURTH
    Technical Specialist - Mr. Andrzej DOSTATNI
    Asst Tech Specialist - Ms. Ayako HIGASHINO

    I'm not sure what the difference is bet Controller and Specialist - all 3 of them decide the levels from what I understand. The Referee really doesnt do much - unless she's the one with the stop watch? Who times the lifts?
  28. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Why are people freaking out so much that they lost a medal (barely) at their first senior GP event? Some of the reactions in the PBP thread were so over-the-top and of course the attacks against the Shibs started coming (and of course on Igor and Maria) that were reactionary to them placing higher. It makes me think that the expectations for Ilynyh/Katsalapov are incredibly high.

    This is coming from someone who fell in love with I&K the moment she came out in her prison garb for Schindler's List.
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2010
  29. Tak

    Tak Well-Known Member

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    Who's freaking out?
  30. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Maybe I'm getting the wrong vibe, but it seems that people have been scrambling to explain how they lost a medal at NHK. From blaming Zhulin's lack of preparedness to criticizing Igor's skaters and coaching in order to justify them not looking as ready as his teams (they all do the same steps, they're boring, etc. unlike the artistic Europeans), and even talking about how I&K should leave Zhulin and move to another coaching team (I read Krylova as a possibility). I even heard their loss to the Shibs being described as "shocking" and people saying how it is unfortunate that they had to debut (as seniors) with a Golden Waltz.

    Again, maybe I'm just misreading here, but it seems people are sort of freaking out that I&K are still cooking and aren't quite ready to become the champions people are sure they'll be by 2012. I mean look at this thread and how some are just perplexed that Staviski dare say that they still skate like juniors or "not like real professionals" (which is understandable to some extent) and he must have some ulterior motive for saying so despite being quite complimentary towards them.
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  31. Hedwig

    Hedwig Rarely here anymore but I try to be better!

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    I agree.
    And also that the expectations are sky high for them. Not only from people on FSU but also from the Russian fed.
    I hope they don't crumble under it.
    I think the best thing that could happen to them right now is if they lost Russian Nationals to B/S so that they can mature in a small shadow for at least one more season. They are still so incredibly young and burst onto the scene in a way that must have surprised them as well. It must be very overwhelming for them right now.
  32. MarieM

    MarieM Well-Known Member

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    Not so far this year :yawn:
    I hate all SDs so that has nothing to do with Igor or Marina, but so far, the free dance I saw are boring me to death from their camp :yawn:
    Which annoys me a lot concerning Davis / White.

    As for I&K, they always have a rough season's debut. Remember last years :hat1: they look a bit undertrained, like Nathalie and Fabian BTW.
    Staviski is helping out all skaters with Zhulin, so I don't see why he's not helping them get new lifts or refine the ones they have. Although, since they are very young, I can understand why it would be a bit dangerous to go for things more demanding.
    They still skate juniorish in terms of speed and ice coverage. But presentation wise, they already are the best of the best. Many ice dancers should look at them and try to learn what she's doing and how he's handling it :hat1:
  33. bek

    bek Guest

    Well I think its ridiculous for people to blame Igor or the Shibs for this one. I got to say that I'd blame Zhulin more. Yes perhaps more demanding lifts aren't necessarily right for this moment, but they could at least have DIFFERENT lifts that actually fit the music and the program.
  34. Tak

    Tak Well-Known Member

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    To me - this is just having a discussion - like we always do around here.:)
  35. taz'smum

    taz'smum Active Member

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    All except the referee contribute to the level calls, but it is the Tech Specialist who has the final say! The others are advisors, the Tech Specialist can override anything they decide if he disagrees!
  36. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    This is from the ISU website

    I guess you can say look how I/K lost the JGPF and then how they won JR worlds. They have a month to get to the level people expect of them.
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  37. Tak

    Tak Well-Known Member

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    Deleted because Casey Edwards cleared it up. Thanks
  38. TAHbKA

    TAHbKA Well-Known Member

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    Think after the Vancouver failure the expectations are set high by the Russian federation. They need new names and they need those names fast. It seems Ilinyh/Katsalapov (at least right now) are their only chance. Assume they will be pushed towards Russia n.1 and for that they would need at least to well, medal somewhere.
  39. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Yes.
  40. vmfan89

    vmfan89 New Member

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    Why must we blame anyone. They are a relatively new team (just two years together I think) just out of juniors and they finished fourth in their first senior event. Last time I checked that was a good result even an excellent one. Virtue/Moir finished fourth at a GP event in their first year as seniors and we're second at nationals. Look where did ended up four years later. I wish people would back of and let I/K grow. Besides it's the first GP of the season, everyone had rough patches. Like you Hedwig, I think it might help them if Bobrova/Soloviev won nationals so it could take some of the pressure off. Anyhow, I am not the least bit worried for I/K. Just look at last year, they lost the JGPF and nationals to Monko/Khaliavin and then obliterated them at JW. I think that once worlds comes around, these two could be quite a threat. And it they're not, it's not a big deal. They are first year seniors. They just need time.