Sochi Olympics will test gay rights

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sugar, Feb 7, 2013.

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  1. Jazz

    Jazz Active Member

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    This article is absolutely arrogant and completely disrespectful towards majority of the Russian people, who voted for this bill to pass.
    Author has no clue about multicultural Russia, he even behaves like dictator, by telling:” This must change” and he wrote 14 times Mr. Putin, which should be Russians. Note, the minute you change “Mr. Putin” to “Russians”, all claims become invalid.
    Author doesn’t understand fundamental things, which have value for Russians.
    When Russians see articles like this, they can’t take it serious at all, and in Caucuses region people could be very aggressive and high tempered, because they have very strong cultural roots and many of them don’t even know about gay existence.

    Proper education through local communities might give some positive results, but not foreign force during Olympics and aggressive propaganda. Let them come to this their own way.




    Russians will take it as disrespectful and stupid act and it won’t change their mind even a bit. Logically and more likely it will produce more hate towards countries and athletes who ignore and breach the law, as well towards of LGBT people in Russia. If this is the purpose, then go ahead. I don’t see the logic at how this kind of forcing foreing action will change 99% of Russian people’s minds.

    As I said before if anyone wants some changes about this issue in Russia, then the best would be an education through local communities and media and lots of patient. At this very moment propaganda among children is a sensitive issue for many Russian families not only Caucuses people.
    LGBT children not alone in Russia, they get support though doctors and family.

    Some videos about Russian culture

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUEtDyv1PVg

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dL58rV0ojxU

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VHFrjpvjgk

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYvEhsX1Exg

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3BSBd407g0

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsbMTwY8R_Y

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHfIL9OFzG8

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlu4h8I6uU8

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7ZtcS481W8

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24WqvxWaJwU

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXOBlK3Cz-U
     
  2. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    So the only way to change people's bigoted and homophobic attitudes is through education, but education is only acceptable if it's not "propaganda" and if no child is ever exposed to it.

    Yup, that makes a lot of sense. :rolleyes:

    As has been pointed out here, by myself and others, respect for other cultures does not mean every belief and norm of those cultures must be accepted and applauded. If people support repulsive legislation, they shouldn't be surprised when they are criticized for it. While we're at it, disrespect is a lot better than what LGBT folks in Russia are facing, so excuse me if I can't work up much sympathy.
     
  3. Angelskates

    Angelskates Well-Known Member

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    No one is saying anyone needs to accept and applaud the law, beliefs, or culture, from afar.

    What some, including me, are saying is that when you criticise another country's law and culture, don't expect them to like it - or it to make any positive difference. In fact, in this case, it will likely make negative difference. If you go there and don't obey the law, then you suffer the consequences of that, the same as if you break the law in any country. You don't have to like the law, but if you go there you *do* need to accept that it's their law.

    It's up to Russians to change this law, and I think those there and familiar with the way things work there, would have a much better way of how that could be done than you or I, or anyone else not there. No need to roll your eyes. There are plenty of ways to educate sensitively. I live in China, and I understand where Jazz is coming from - it's much easier for you to :rolleyes: from your non-Russian home country, but for those in Russia, there *are* ways to educate and still be sensitive to what the law is, as Jazz said, support is available with families and doctors, so that's start.
     
  4. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    I didn't mention kissing in public, nor did I suggest it be part of a mass protest, but it is discrimination when it's illegal for gay people to kiss in public when a heterosexual couple can stick their tongues down each other's throats in Red Square. What is a violation of human rights is making supporting homosexuality illegal, which is only partially defined as "gay behavior." Things like gay people being beaten to within an inch of their life, a man sodomized by the police and hospitalized with a punctured intestine, or filmmakers being detained for asking people questions about homosexuality.
     
  5. spikydurian

    spikydurian Well-Known Member

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    I think most of us can agree that the legislation is unfortunate and unfair to LGTB people. What we are disagreeing is how to deal with this Russian legislation and highlight its implications on LGTB in Russia, and perhaps some may hope that the Russian Parliament may rescind the law.

    I am not a Russophile and have no idea what the majority of the Russians think about this legislation. For all you know, many may not be even aware of this legislation. IMO, change from within is better than externally forced change for the latter is likely to be volatile. Certainly every country/athletic participant reserves their individual right to boycott or not to boycott the games whichever way they think is the best way forward.
     
  6. manhn

    manhn Well-Known Member

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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyljfphimpc

    GO TO JAIL!!!!!

    I was already to defend Sochi about things like weather or cost overruns or weather and blame it on the British media. But this is too much.

    And as if Chinese people don't ever complain when they come to other countries.

    This is different than someone deciding to visit a country for the heck of it or setting up a business in another country. Russia decided to host the event and with that comes scrutiny. As host, the country has to be a lot more accommodating.

    The privilege in the above statement is astounding.
     
  7. dardar1126

    dardar1126 Well-Known Member

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  8. Jammers

    Jammers Well-Known Member

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    I think Plushenko should shake things up and come out as gay. Wonder how Putin would handle that one. LOL
     
  9. Sugar

    Sugar Well-Known Member

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    Here’s a crazy idea: Bring the 2014 Olympics back to Vancouver
    http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/cana...g-2014-olympics-back-vancouver-083623465.html
    But if this groundswell continues to build — and athletes and countries actually boycott — why not Vancouver 2014 as a Plan B?
    Most if not all the venues are still intact: Rogers Arena for hockey and figure skating, the Richmond Oval for speed skating and Whistler Olympic Park for cross country and downhill skiing, ski jumping, bobsleigh, skeleton, etc..
    It wouldn't be as grand as 2010, but has to be better then a sparsely attended Sochi 2014.
     
  10. Sugar

    Sugar Well-Known Member

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    US gay rights activists press for boycott of Russian products, Sochi Olympics
    http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/07/26/197797/us-gay-rights-activists-press.html#.UfQELG1pE8U
    "You've got to go economic," said Fort Lauderdale, Fla., activist Nate Klarfeld, former board chairman of the Stonewall National Museum & Archives. "The Olympics has turned into a business. Billions are paid for sponsorships. If NBC doesn't cover the Olympics, then Russia loses all its cachet. And when this all started, I said it's a no-brainer. We should just pour all the Stoli down the sewers."
     
  11. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    If you don't know Plushenko signed a petition against Milonov in concern apparently is against gay community. He signed the open letter to ask Putin to remove that guy from his post. Milonov (member of Putin's party) is some ultra-clerical dick, which has already tried to ban concerts of Madonna, Lady Gaga, Rammstein, tried to close MTV channel, the teaching of Darwin's theory in schools, was the author of initiative to ban abortion... also, he using this "anti-gay" law to threaten people....

    ____________________

    You really don't understand, Russia is a huge multicultural country. There are people away from the european big cities, who aren't live in the 21.century. Who are muslims or orthodox Christians. You try to explain them the LGTB community and their rights.....
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2013
  12. alilou

    alilou Crazy Stalker Lady

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  13. dardar1126

    dardar1126 Well-Known Member

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  14. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    I didn't know that, thanks for sharing. Is there a link to a story on the subject?
     
  15. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    This was in last december

    http://www.baltinfo.ru/2012/12/20/P...isali-pismo-s-prosboi-ostavki-Milonova-325218 -Plushenko, Baskov( famous opera and pop singer, Plu's friend) and Rudkovskaya (Plu's wife) signed a letter asking him to "resignation" Milonov

    http://democrator.ru/problem/9602
    and
    http://en.ria.ru/russia/20121220/178294940.html Russian Pop Stars Chime in on ‘Sodomite Propaganda’ :confused: :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2013
  16. dots

    dots Well-Known Member

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  17. PeterG

    PeterG Argle-Bargle-ist

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    When you say "some people" and "someone"...who exactly are you referring to??

    Getting into a "who is worse" argument is just a way to distract people from the topic at hand. Yes, there are atrocities that happen everywhere around the world. And for each of those, you are welcome to start a new thread to talk about that specific issue. Right here, right now, we are talking about the effect that Russia's anti-gay laws will have on the athletes who will qualify to be in Sochi next year.

    Change can occur from both within and from outside a country. From outside of Russia, if a boycott of anything produced in Russia occurred and all the revenue from Russian products were to dwindle to nothing, big changes would happen very quickly.
     
  18. Sugar

    Sugar Well-Known Member

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    Mr. Putin’s War on Gays
    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/28/opinion/sunday/mr-putins-war-on-gays.html?_r=0
    The United States, which has made great strides in accepting and protecting gay rights, has expressed concern about the new laws but needs to be more forceful. So does the International Olympic Committee, which too often fails to defend the Olympic ideals and should be leading a full-throated international campaign to insist that Russia repeal these laws.
    If nothing else, there is pure self-interest for Mr. Putin in this. Gay athletes and supporters of gay rights could decide not to attend the Games, or nascent calls for a formal Olympic boycott could gather steam. That will not produce the self-congratulatory showcase event over which Mr. Putin is so eager to preside.
     
  19. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    The new York times seems very open to supporting a boycott of Sochi
     
  20. spikydurian

    spikydurian Well-Known Member

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    If Americans think this is the best way to make Russia changes this discriminatory law, then perhaps a boycott by the USA may forces Putin's hand indeed. It has to be carried out to see its effects.
     
  21. Angelskates

    Angelskates Well-Known Member

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    That will never happen on the scale that will make any difference.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2013
  22. AlexDSSF

    AlexDSSF Member

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    Here's what I think: if Tsar Vladimir of Putinistan (as I like to call him) sees fit to go after the gays, then anyone who doesn't fit his narrow view of an appropriate Russian is fair game. I would not be surprised if he and/or his cronies go after other oppressed groups in the lead-up to Sochi 2014. It is because of Tsar Vladimir of Putinistan that I am wary of anything about Russia, from a Russian winning an Olympic gold medal to a Russian winning Miss World or whatever pageant to merely walking into a Russian grocery store in San Francisco's Sunset District. Of course it is an irrational thought that I have, but so is what's going on in Russia against the gays.
     
  23. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    I still think there is so much noise in USA but seemingly so little in more liberal euro nations!! Dutch condemned the arrest very clearly but not as strongly as possible!

    Putinistan! Lol! It's hardly irrational thinking when there are total Stoli boycotts!!
     
  24. BittyBug

    BittyBug Kiteless

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    Otlichno! :40beers:
     
  25. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

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    No one has stopped or could stop you from talking what this thread meant to talk about.

    I was merely pointing out that some of these posters are standing on a high horse and judging others as if these kinds of things have never happened and/or are not happening in their own backyard. If the bad things related to human rights are also happening in their own backyard, going on a strike, such as boycotting Olympics, seems ridiculously extreme and overreacting. It could only make the Russians more resistant than before. Haven't anyone remembered that the Russians boycotted US Olympics because the US had boycotted the Russian one?

    As someone has already pointed out in this thread, Putin himself could not make any law! It must have been the views of the majority Russians. Change needs connections and time. It also needs respect. Your culture is open doesn't mean that their culture has to be as open as yours, at least doesn't have to be as open as yours overnight. Just because your own backyard is messy, don't go into other's backyard and make theirs messier.

    Oh, I didn't know that "right to kiss in public" is equal to "right to vote", "right to have the same educations", "right to have the same job opportunities", and "right to have the same healthcares".:rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2013
  26. judiz

    judiz Well-Known Member

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    Boycotting the Olympics will have no effect, boycotting in 1980 did not make Russia pull out of Afganistan or end the fighting there. Hitting Russia economically is a thought but would hurt the poor workers in Russia more than the government.
     
  27. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    A right to kiss in public can be seen as a form of freedom of expression and a freedom of association. Also, this delves into the rights of adults to be intimate with one another, which would go under privacy. Yes, kissing in public is public, not private, however, criminalizing an intimate act for one population and not another would absolutely affect the way various legislative bodies can start cracking down on the acts in private (if it's ok to criminalize this behavior in public, then surely it's also ok to criminalize it altogether).

    Then there's the issue of equal protections under the law, which is a separate train-of-thought from recognizing a right to do something. Of course, I don't know the Russian constitution, so I don't even know what it says regarding due process and if it even recognizes equal protections under the law.

    I do agree with what another poster said and I absolutely think that your whole dismissive attitude regarding how important it is for LGBTQ individuals to not be singled out in showing affection in public when heterosexuals often do so without thinking twice or realizing they're doing it and are on display shows an incredible amount of privilege and lack of understanding of the issue at hand. I mean dismissing it as simply "kissing in public" just says it all about how much you really thought about it.

    OT, but I had a really interesting conversation with a friend of mine about this very topic. He thinks a boycott should not happen because he thinks once Russia opens its doors to the rest of the world, they cannot control the press and the behavior of such a sheer number of outsiders coming into this country. He thinks the Russian people will be exposed to other ways of thinking and whatever counter action that is happening in Russia will only gain traction from all the world-wide attention being brought to Russia. He also thinks a boycott will only cause even greater animosity towards the people of the West and Russia.

    I have a much more cynical view of it, but I have opened my mind up a bit more. I just don't really trust people to care at all, and the Russian government will tolerate 2 weeks of Western influence just as long as they get tons of revenue from the Olympics. I think once all the spectators and media leave and feel good about the "positive influence" they brought they won't give Russia a second thought (except when figuring out if they'd like to go there again for their winter vacations) and all the crack downs will happen ten-fold.

    ETA:

    Because I have a theory that a lot of people don't want a boycott just so they can enjoy watching the Olympic games and see skaters that they have invested in get to compete. I mean we write in threads dedicated to skaters, have argued/defended results, and are arguing for/against a boycott in a figure skating forum on a daily basis. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to think that some selfishness is coming to play here, just like how some in this thread are suggesting that LGBTQ individuals and their allies are being selfish for thinking that "gay issues" are the "only important issues."
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2013
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  28. Domshabfan

    Domshabfan Well-Known Member

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    So this is acceptable while arguing for LGBT rights... showing your prejudice against a set of population...
     
  29. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    Yes. This what I'm saying.

    The Cold War is not over yet.

    You are happy, if you can hate Russia, you want to hate Russia..Putinistan....congrats

    And yes, I say, that is a shame, who wants to use the Olympic Games, sacrificing the Olympic spirit for any purpose ...

    ... the world can find other means to fight the law ... the Olympic spirit is inviolable !
     
  30. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

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    I think you are desperately wanting to be singled out in their country. You couldn't wait for the time to make connections and cultural changes. You just want to kiss in the public and make a scene and make the majority people there feel offended because that's your purpose. Go ahead.:shuffle:

    Naaaaaa, I'm surprised that a person as smart as yourself has forgotten that Olympics is not a competition between only Russia and US two countries. I'd be quite happy if you are happy with the decision by US to boycott Sochi games. There will be less competitions and my favorites will have better chance to win.:shuffle:
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2013
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