Sochi Olympics will test gay rights

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sugar, Feb 7, 2013.

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  1. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    If you don't know Plushenko signed a petition against Milonov in concern apparently is against gay community. He signed the open letter to ask Putin to remove that guy from his post. Milonov (member of Putin's party) is some ultra-clerical dick, which has already tried to ban concerts of Madonna, Lady Gaga, Rammstein, tried to close MTV channel, the teaching of Darwin's theory in schools, was the author of initiative to ban abortion... also, he using this "anti-gay" law to threaten people....

    ____________________

    You really don't understand, Russia is a huge multicultural country. There are people away from the european big cities, who aren't live in the 21.century. Who are muslims or orthodox Christians. You try to explain them the LGTB community and their rights.....
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2013
  2. alilou

    alilou Crazy Stalker Lady

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  3. dardar1126

    dardar1126 Well-Known Member

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  4. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    I didn't know that, thanks for sharing. Is there a link to a story on the subject?
  5. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    This was in last december

    http://www.baltinfo.ru/2012/12/20/P...isali-pismo-s-prosboi-ostavki-Milonova-325218 -Plushenko, Baskov( famous opera and pop singer, Plu's friend) and Rudkovskaya (Plu's wife) signed a letter asking him to "resignation" Milonov

    http://democrator.ru/problem/9602
    and
    http://en.ria.ru/russia/20121220/178294940.html Russian Pop Stars Chime in on ‘Sodomite Propaganda’ :confused: :rolleyes:
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2013
  6. dots

    dots Well-Known Member

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  7. PeterG

    PeterG Argle-Bargle-ist

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    When you say "some people" and "someone"...who exactly are you referring to??

    Getting into a "who is worse" argument is just a way to distract people from the topic at hand. Yes, there are atrocities that happen everywhere around the world. And for each of those, you are welcome to start a new thread to talk about that specific issue. Right here, right now, we are talking about the effect that Russia's anti-gay laws will have on the athletes who will qualify to be in Sochi next year.

    Change can occur from both within and from outside a country. From outside of Russia, if a boycott of anything produced in Russia occurred and all the revenue from Russian products were to dwindle to nothing, big changes would happen very quickly.
  8. Sugar

    Sugar Well-Known Member

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    Mr. Putin’s War on Gays
    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/28/opinion/sunday/mr-putins-war-on-gays.html?_r=0
    The United States, which has made great strides in accepting and protecting gay rights, has expressed concern about the new laws but needs to be more forceful. So does the International Olympic Committee, which too often fails to defend the Olympic ideals and should be leading a full-throated international campaign to insist that Russia repeal these laws.
    If nothing else, there is pure self-interest for Mr. Putin in this. Gay athletes and supporters of gay rights could decide not to attend the Games, or nascent calls for a formal Olympic boycott could gather steam. That will not produce the self-congratulatory showcase event over which Mr. Putin is so eager to preside.
  9. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    The new York times seems very open to supporting a boycott of Sochi
  10. spikydurian

    spikydurian Well-Known Member

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    If Americans think this is the best way to make Russia changes this discriminatory law, then perhaps a boycott by the USA may forces Putin's hand indeed. It has to be carried out to see its effects.
  11. Angelskates

    Angelskates Well-Known Member

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    That will never happen on the scale that will make any difference.
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2013
  12. AlexDSSF

    AlexDSSF Member

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    Here's what I think: if Tsar Vladimir of Putinistan (as I like to call him) sees fit to go after the gays, then anyone who doesn't fit his narrow view of an appropriate Russian is fair game. I would not be surprised if he and/or his cronies go after other oppressed groups in the lead-up to Sochi 2014. It is because of Tsar Vladimir of Putinistan that I am wary of anything about Russia, from a Russian winning an Olympic gold medal to a Russian winning Miss World or whatever pageant to merely walking into a Russian grocery store in San Francisco's Sunset District. Of course it is an irrational thought that I have, but so is what's going on in Russia against the gays.
  13. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    I still think there is so much noise in USA but seemingly so little in more liberal euro nations!! Dutch condemned the arrest very clearly but not as strongly as possible!

    Putinistan! Lol! It's hardly irrational thinking when there are total Stoli boycotts!!
  14. BittyBug

    BittyBug Kiteless

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    Otlichno! :40beers:
  15. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

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    No one has stopped or could stop you from talking what this thread meant to talk about.

    I was merely pointing out that some of these posters are standing on a high horse and judging others as if these kinds of things have never happened and/or are not happening in their own backyard. If the bad things related to human rights are also happening in their own backyard, going on a strike, such as boycotting Olympics, seems ridiculously extreme and overreacting. It could only make the Russians more resistant than before. Haven't anyone remembered that the Russians boycotted US Olympics because the US had boycotted the Russian one?

    As someone has already pointed out in this thread, Putin himself could not make any law! It must have been the views of the majority Russians. Change needs connections and time. It also needs respect. Your culture is open doesn't mean that their culture has to be as open as yours, at least doesn't have to be as open as yours overnight. Just because your own backyard is messy, don't go into other's backyard and make theirs messier.

    Oh, I didn't know that "right to kiss in public" is equal to "right to vote", "right to have the same educations", "right to have the same job opportunities", and "right to have the same healthcares".:rolleyes:
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2013
  16. judiz

    judiz Well-Known Member

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    Boycotting the Olympics will have no effect, boycotting in 1980 did not make Russia pull out of Afganistan or end the fighting there. Hitting Russia economically is a thought but would hurt the poor workers in Russia more than the government.
  17. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    A right to kiss in public can be seen as a form of freedom of expression and a freedom of association. Also, this delves into the rights of adults to be intimate with one another, which would go under privacy. Yes, kissing in public is public, not private, however, criminalizing an intimate act for one population and not another would absolutely affect the way various legislative bodies can start cracking down on the acts in private (if it's ok to criminalize this behavior in public, then surely it's also ok to criminalize it altogether).

    Then there's the issue of equal protections under the law, which is a separate train-of-thought from recognizing a right to do something. Of course, I don't know the Russian constitution, so I don't even know what it says regarding due process and if it even recognizes equal protections under the law.

    I do agree with what another poster said and I absolutely think that your whole dismissive attitude regarding how important it is for LGBTQ individuals to not be singled out in showing affection in public when heterosexuals often do so without thinking twice or realizing they're doing it and are on display shows an incredible amount of privilege and lack of understanding of the issue at hand. I mean dismissing it as simply "kissing in public" just says it all about how much you really thought about it.

    OT, but I had a really interesting conversation with a friend of mine about this very topic. He thinks a boycott should not happen because he thinks once Russia opens its doors to the rest of the world, they cannot control the press and the behavior of such a sheer number of outsiders coming into this country. He thinks the Russian people will be exposed to other ways of thinking and whatever counter action that is happening in Russia will only gain traction from all the world-wide attention being brought to Russia. He also thinks a boycott will only cause even greater animosity towards the people of the West and Russia.

    I have a much more cynical view of it, but I have opened my mind up a bit more. I just don't really trust people to care at all, and the Russian government will tolerate 2 weeks of Western influence just as long as they get tons of revenue from the Olympics. I think once all the spectators and media leave and feel good about the "positive influence" they brought they won't give Russia a second thought (except when figuring out if they'd like to go there again for their winter vacations) and all the crack downs will happen ten-fold.

    ETA:

    Because I have a theory that a lot of people don't want a boycott just so they can enjoy watching the Olympic games and see skaters that they have invested in get to compete. I mean we write in threads dedicated to skaters, have argued/defended results, and are arguing for/against a boycott in a figure skating forum on a daily basis. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to think that some selfishness is coming to play here, just like how some in this thread are suggesting that LGBTQ individuals and their allies are being selfish for thinking that "gay issues" are the "only important issues."
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2013
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  18. Domshabfan

    Domshabfan Well-Known Member

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    So this is acceptable while arguing for LGBT rights... showing your prejudice against a set of population...
  19. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    Yes. This what I'm saying.

    The Cold War is not over yet.

    You are happy, if you can hate Russia, you want to hate Russia..Putinistan....congrats

    And yes, I say, that is a shame, who wants to use the Olympic Games, sacrificing the Olympic spirit for any purpose ...

    ... the world can find other means to fight the law ... the Olympic spirit is inviolable !
  20. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

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    I think you are desperately wanting to be singled out in their country. You couldn't wait for the time to make connections and cultural changes. You just want to kiss in the public and make a scene and make the majority people there feel offended because that's your purpose. Go ahead.:shuffle:

    Naaaaaa, I'm surprised that a person as smart as yourself has forgotten that Olympics is not a competition between only Russia and US two countries. I'd be quite happy if you are happy with the decision by US to boycott Sochi games. There will be less competitions and my favorites will have better chance to win.:shuffle:
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2013
  21. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    I don't think expressing distaste for homophobic attitudes and criticsm of homophobic legislation equates to hating Russia and Russians. Also, most of the posters in this thread have advocated making a statement against these things by means other than an Olympic boycott.
  22. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    I was very-very young in 1984. I was living in the Eastern Bloc, and one of my friend had a chance to go to Los Angeles Games because he passed the qualifying level, he was a long-jumper. But he could not go because the LA Games was boycotted by the Eastern Block. It was a tragedy for him, he almost cried, he worked so much for it. And he never had the opportunity again to attend an Olympics. His dreams were lost forever. Do you want it your favorite athletes?
  23. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

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    As a gay male, I was willing to take your post seriously until you said THAT.
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  24. spikydurian

    spikydurian Well-Known Member

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    Alright, perhaps this may work. Why not provide refugee status to those who want to leave Russia? Perhaps Weir can start a campaign to push for refugee status for those who want to leave?

    I think Eyre’s quote was related to Angelskates’s comments: “So it would be a "I came to this country but I don't intend to obey the laws I don't like?" Where does that end?”. I believe it meant in relation what was posted earlier, “That you have enough law and order problems in your country, so why create the same in someone’s else’s country"

    Yes, I agree too that the crackdown will increase ten-fold. Let me share an article I came across which I thought was insightful and thoughtful. I cannot remember the name of the journalist but I think he’s American (no, definitely not Phil Hersh :p ). It is in relation to N. Korean refugees who escaped to the USA via the Chinese Embassy. A campaign by well-meaning activists in highlighting the N. Korean plights only resulted in setting off a Chinese crackdown that forced some 100,000 refugees back to North Korea whereas in the past, a blind eye was adopted towards the refugees. Whilst the campaign was successful in highlighting the’ big bad N. Korea’ it came at a price for future refugees. The very people the campaign aimed at helping, gained nothing.

    I don’t believe spectators care more about the Olympics than the athletes and those who supported them. I am not going to be depressed if there is no Olympics to watch. If I am an athlete who has worked my butts out and sacrificed for years to reach a level good enough to compete to represent my country in the Olympics, I would be depressed. And I think it is unfair to call these people selfish. Similarly, I can call those people who call for the boycott selfish because they think their campaign is more important than the athletes and their aspirations.
  25. BittyBug

    BittyBug Kiteless

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    Did Putin not sign the law? And without his signature would the proposal have become law?

    Please - laws being passed do not necessarily mean that they represent the views of a majority, otherwise, I'm quite sure that very few countries would have taxes. :p

    Are you serious? People criticize political leaders every day and it has absolutely no further implication on a country's people. I took the "Putinstan" moniker to represent Putin's well-established semi-autocratic authority.

    Are you serious? This has absolutely nothing to do with the Cold War, and I haven't seen anything in this thread to imply a broader hate for Russia as a country or the Russian people. The discussion in this thread is focused on one law, and if the best defense you can come up with for that law is trying to distract the conversation from the intended topic, I suppose you really can't defend it.

    When a country hosts the Olympics, it will necessarily come under closer scrutiny by the world at large. And when that host country passes a law that very expressly discriminates against a class of people, it should not be surprised if that action draws vocal criticism.
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  26. skatesindreams

    skatesindreams Well-Known Member

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    The athletes need spectator support more than ever.
    Their success will do more to show how ridiculous these laws are than anything else
    Boycotting serves no useful purpose.
  27. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    It's not the campaign that is more important to many of them. It's the laws that the campaign is opposing.
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2013
  28. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I'm serious. You are arrogant, you are thinking with your western brain.. Not to mention, we know in your country the gays also had a very long way. What do you think about it, everyone has right to medical care. How many people have no health insurance in U.S.? I want a boycott. And I want a boycott against Rio 2016!!! In Rio millions of people live in favela! They have rights for the normal life and healthy environment. And I wanted a boycott against Vancouver! The Canadians destroying the environment with the oil sands extraction.

    Do you know that the Athletic World Championships will be held in Moscow a few weeks later? We can see what will happen.
  29. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    ^ Go ahead. Rally enough support for those causes and see how the general population reacts. The consensus of world opinion often picks and chooses what things they cannot put up with. I don't see how not making a big enough stink for other violations undermines the very real fact that the LGBTQ population is being targeted based on hostile animosity due attributes people cannot change. Saying that it's only targeting behavior and not sexuality is also a bit false because it's putting a heavy and non-realistic burden on that population.
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  30. centerpt1

    centerpt1 Active Member

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    I’m concerned for the discrimination that may face the Athletes before they even get to Sochi.
    Suppose New Zealand* decides that sending Blake (a vocal out gay short track skater) would be too risky- that his presence might endanger his team mates by making them a target of anti-gay violence? Violence seems to be accepted in Russia-as long as it’s against Gays.

    *just used as an example

    Even if Blake makes it to Sochi.....will he be stuck in the Village? Too risky to go out and get a tat or see local sights? Will his Fed bar him from leaving the Village?

    IT just takes away from the whole spirit and good will of the Games to potentially have some athletes treated differently than others- just because they’re part of the 10%- not the 90%.

    I’m not in favor of a boycott- that would hurt all the athletes that train so hard. But the whole situation is very sad.
  31. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    There's a difference between awarding the games when those issues are known, and quite another when legislation is created after the games are awarded, legislation that directly impacts the athletes, officials, voluntters, media, and spectators and forces paricipants to be held hostage in the athlete's village. Apartheid was the legal norm in South Africa, although there were private faclities where "coloreds" were physically protected, but this is as if apartheid were put in place after the games were awarded, or if morality police squads emerged within a year od the Games that would curtail the movement of the women who were involved with the Olympics.

    What about the alternates who are specifically not given credentials or a room in the village by the rules, but must be present "off campus" in case they are called? What happens if security is lax enough like in Munich and gay-bashers decide to take matters into their own hands in the village?
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2013
  32. centerpt1

    centerpt1 Active Member

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    It does seem that some sort of protection/safeguards should be put in place, especially for the Athletes, their families, and spectators attending the Games.
  33. BittyBug

    BittyBug Kiteless

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    That there are other atrocities elsewhere in the world - everywhere in the world - does not in my opinion in any way diminish that this law is discriminatory and has the potential to not only marginalize a segment of the population but also put them at risk.
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  34. dots

    dots Well-Known Member

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    After watching one of those gay torture videos circulating Youtube, I have come to the conclusion that hate crimes will happen at the Olympics. And I don't say this just because I'm emotional right now, but sometimes you just have to admit things are broken beyond repair. There's too much hatred going around.

    For those people that are minimizing the severity of these events, you deserve no respect. I don't respect you. You are everything that is wrong with this world.



    Some people in the skating community are not our friends PeterG. They are far far on the other side of the spectrum.
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2013
  35. Sugar

    Sugar Well-Known Member

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    Russian lawmaker wants ban on gay propaganda to be applied to Sochi Games
    http://rbth.ru/news/2013/07/28/russ...aganda_to_be_applied_to_sochi_game_28449.html
    Chairman of the St. Petersburg legislature's committee for legislation Vitaly Milonov, who is also the author of the city law banning gay propaganda, said the similar federal law should apply to the guests and athletes of the Sochi Winter Olympics."I haven't heard the government's commentaries, but I know that the government acts in compliance with Russian laws. If a law has been passed by parliament and signed by the president, the government has no right or powers to reverse it," Milonov told Interfax on Sunday on reports that the federal law banning homosexual propaganda will not be applied to foreign participants in the Sochi Olympics.
    "Any normal athlete, or sport fan arrives to support his team and to watch sport events in their splendor, not to violate the laws of the hosting country," he said.
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  36. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    Yes.

    Yes, I agree. I just don't agree with the boycott.
  37. dardar1126

    dardar1126 Well-Known Member

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    Two new viewpoints:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/miche...he-olympics-russ_b_3667829.html?utm_hp_ref=tw

    Michelangelo Signorile, Editor-at-large, HuffPost Gay Voices
    Boycott the Olympics? Russian Vodka? NBC? Maybe. Here Are Five Other Ripe Targets

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jul/29/russia-war-on-gays-sochi-olympics?CMP=twt_gu

    Shame on the IOC, NBC and foreign governments for turning a blind eye on Russia's LGBT hate campaign
    As long as the Sochi games are fine, the IOC and others will ignore Putin's moves to intimidate and hurt LGBT Russians

    Nancy Goldstein
    guardian.co.uk, Monday 29 July 2013 07.30 EDT
  38. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Jul 29, 2013
  39. dardar1126

    dardar1126 Well-Known Member

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    http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2013/07/2...-over-anti-gay-laws-ahead-of-winter-olympics/

    Canada: Vancouver Mayor attacks Russia over anti-gay laws ahead of Winter Olympics

    by Joseph Patrick McCormick
    29 July 2013, 11:41pm

    Excerpt:

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  40. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    Just to point out that Mayor Gregor has always been very supportive of the LGBT community in Vancouver, so it's not like his views have been changed because of what's changed in Russia. Plus it's Pride Week in Vancouver, so it's a very relevant issue.
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2013
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