Sochi Olympics will test gay rights

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sugar, Feb 7, 2013.

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  1. valyrian

    valyrian New Member

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    In theory I'd agree with you, but seeing as there is a (former?) USFSA official in this thread spouting homophobic garbage...looks to me like those grown-ass men with careers might be rightfully cautious, to say nothing of skaters in more conservative countries.
     
  2. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    The Soviet Union had severe restrictions on Jewish education and the public expression of a Jewish identity, and no one suggested that this was a reason for boycotting the 1980 Olympics, even those who did support the boycott. IIRC, the U.S.S.R.'s poor record on human rights was discussed at the time Moscow was bidding for the games, just as Russia's record was discussed at the time of Sochi's bid, but the I.O.C. obviously found other considerations to be more important.
     
  3. danceronice

    danceronice Corgi Wrangler

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    Never mind the millions of people in their "satellite states" and "republics" (ie militarily-oppressed countries like Ukraine, Lithuania, etc) the Soviet Union spent the twentieth century arresting, deporting, starving, and outright murdering. The major difference between the USSR and Nazi Germany is they got away with it a lot longer. That didn't come up regarding the boycott (considering what that was about it's ironic that by now, who HASN'T invaded Afghanistan?) It would be somewhat petty to start caring what Russia does to violate human rights at this point, especially when some of the screaming comes from the same end of the political spectrum that closed their eyes to Russian atrocities for decades because their political philosophy SOUNDED fair and collectivism is a good goal, right?
     
  4. dots

    dots Well-Known Member

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    At it boy! Speaking like someone who couldn't give a sh!t about others.

    We should stop caring about those pesky "gays" right now!
    I mean whatever man, I have problems of my own. :rolleyes:

    ----
    Ughh! I just heard the news Russia is going to start arresting Gay tourists. Ugh! We can start boycotting now.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2013
  5. dots

    dots Well-Known Member

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  6. Anita18

    Anita18 Well-Known Member

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    So...Johnny Weir can't go to Russia anymore? :(
     
  7. dots

    dots Well-Known Member

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    Only if he goes back into the closet. :p
     
  8. Anita18

    Anita18 Well-Known Member

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    But he's openly gay and married to a man. Would the Russians be ok with it if he left Viktor at home? :p
     
  9. dardar1126

    dardar1126 Well-Known Member

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    Twitter:

     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2013
  10. judiz

    judiz Well-Known Member

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    When Johnny went to Russia for the grand prix last fall, he tweeted that he put married to a man on his visa application for Russia, he's not going backwards.
     
  11. judiz

    judiz Well-Known Member

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    The biggest problem Russia had to tackle is its orphanages which are understaffed and overcrowded, where babies go for days without being held and older kids have to fight over toys, food and attention from staff.
     
  12. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    It wasn't illegal to write that then.

    When I was last in Estonia, I watched a re-run of a very popular Russian variety show, and the men appeared to be about as straight as Liberace. Will Russia have to close down that TV genre?
     
  13. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    Can Russian police target high-profile foreigners, such as Olympic athletes, who are known to be gay and outspoken in the past/in their own countries, even if avoid doing anything against this law while in Russia?

    If an out foreign athlete gives an interview to a news medium from their home country while on Russian soil and matter-of-factly refers to being gay, would Russian authorities construe that as actionable propaganda?

    Will homophobic Russian citizens be able to get away with attacking visiting foreigners who are known or suspected to be gay? Presumably physical attacks would also be against Russian law, but enforcement might be overlooked in this context.

    How many gay athletes will decide to go, compete, and deliberately keep a low profile to avoid anything that could get them into trouble? Or act as they would act in any venue without such laws, and take their chances? Either way, a shame that worrying about this would be a distraction from what they're really there for.

    And how many will choose to take a stand, either by refusing to go to Russia or by publicly challenging the law while there? Brave and risky, if principle is more important to them than Olympic competition.
     
  14. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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  15. judiz

    judiz Well-Known Member

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    From Johnny's twitter:

    Johnny Weir-Voronov ‏@JohnnyGWeir 3h
    For all that keep tweeting me regarding Russia+Anti-LGBT+Me, I'll be writing about it for my next column with @fcnp out next Thursday.
     
  16. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    And where were gay activists in 1974, when Moscow was selected to host the Olympics? In 1980, when Moscow hosted the games? Or even in 2007, when Sochi was selected, and, as I mentioned upthread, Russia had a well-known record of persecution of gay people?

    Ultimately, all of us should care about the treatment of gay people, Jews, neighboring countries, journalists, etc. What I find disturbing is the concept that things should stop because of the concerns of one group when other groups are treated just as badly, if not worse, and that one group does not express solidarity with the others.
     
  17. dots

    dots Well-Known Member

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    Really Vagabond? Really?? :huh:

    1) I'm 33 yrs. of age, hardly a kid, and I can tell you I wasn't around back then. I'm sure a lot of us were not around back then.

    2) This new wave of LGBT activism only got serious momentum up until around 2010. You might as well be talking about the 1800's.

    3) What I find disturbing is that you called us "That one group" :confused: worse you just called us selfish for calling out others who discriminate us.

    I'm waiting with anticipation when you come back to explain what you mean by this. Please Vagabond, don't hold back! Be as explicit & honest as you can be. :watch:
     
  18. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Blaming a lack of solidarity (when there should be, I agree with that) or ignorance of other incidences that happen that may be just as oppressive to other groups doesn't really deal with the ultimate issue at hand. All controversies and movements that gain wide recognition and publicity do so because the narrative captures the attention of a majority or a big proportion of the population. Sad that PR and marketing plays such a big role, but it does. Hopefully, there will be sects in that "one group" that will bring attention to other forms of oppression that happens.

    Anyway, the reason why this controversy is ripe at the moment is because not only have the LGBTQ community made some strides in being recognized as people deserving of equal treatment, but that Russia has recently passed an explicitly antagonistic law right before one of the biggest public spectacles that will make the country go under scrutiny on a global scale.

    Again, other forms of oppression do need to paid attention to, but there's no sense of blaming "one group" (whatever that means) that people have sympathized with their cause. Not to mention that "one group" is pretty heterogeneous and can't be painted with a broad brush. The LGBTQ community is full of people with different attitudes and politics regarding race/ethnic issues, war and security issues, economic issues, social issues, etc. Again, I agree that when one group is as explicitly oppressed as the LGBTQ community is in Russia, then you'd hope that members of that group on a global scale will also care about other forms of oppression, but there will always be self-serving people who only care when something affects or attacks them personally. That goes for ALL groups.

    I can maybe understand some exasperation that "gay issues" are taking ahold of the public consciousness and it seems like homophobia, as of late, is getting attention that seems disproportionate to other kinds of animosity towards other groups, but it's not as if the LGBTQ population isn't under attack in Russia. Sorry that you feel that things shouldn't halt because of the oppression of "only one group" but I don't see how it is in anyway disturbing that people would want things to "halt" because they care about that group. I mean the narrative for World War II for the longest time was the genocide of the Jews whereas many other ethnic and sexual groups were targeted in a similar manner but haven't gained nearly the same amount of attention and sympathy until recently. Does that take away what the Nazis did to the Jews? No.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2013
  19. dots

    dots Well-Known Member

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    To assume that LGBT (or the more recent LGBTQ (Q for QUEER/ others have it for "questioning")) community does not care for other oppressed groups is right down insulting.

    It's like it's ok for other groups to tell their stories, but how dare the gays do so. If not now, when will it be ok to do it then?

    I want to know why pushing for equality makes people think we don't want the same for others. What makes people think we can't do both? :confused:

    As a gay man who has done charity for Unicef, children International, and donated thousands of dollars to MSF (Doctors without Borders) this is right down insulting.

    Being gay makes us less likely to help others? According to who? :confused:
     
  20. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

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    I don't think anything will happen on this regard at Sochi Olympics no matter how much you hope it to happen.:p
     
  21. DarrellH

    DarrellH New Member

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  22. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    If you ask me, the "ultimate issues" here are whether Russia's deplorable human rights record (1) warranted not awarding the Games to Sochi back in 2007 and (2) warrants boycotting the Games now. The treatment of gay people is only one aspect of this record.

    As I mentioned in Post #178, Russia's record on gay rights was well known in 2007. As far as I remember and from what I have been able to find by hunting around on the Internet since this thread was started, gay-rights groups -- both inside and outside of Russia -- did not speak up during the bidding process. The time to speak up was then, and, in fact, other groups such as Greenpeace, the World Wildlife Federation, and organizations representing Circassians and local residents did speak up.

    The Games could have been to awarded to some other city. Pyeongchang, which was the runnerup and which will host the Games in 2018, would have been a good choice. So would have Salzburg. But they were awarded to Sochi, and the athletes, NOC's, federations, and organizers have all been preparing for the competitions.

    In my opinion, it is myopic to suggest, with less than a year before the Games, that some new legislation, which is in fact of a piece with Russia's overall treatment of gay people, somehow changes things to such an extent that athletes should be expected to boycott. If, on the other hand, fans choose not to travel to Russia precisely because of the legislation, I certainly understand and respect their decision.

    History doesn't begin when one individual becomes conscious of current events. :shuffle:

    People and organizations have been actively and publicly fighting for gay rights since before the Stonewall Riots in 1969. If you ask me, the only things new about LGBT activism in the past three years are (1) its focus on marriage, (2) a measure of success in legal recognition of gay marriage and in public acceptance of gay people as an integral part of the larger community, and (3) the participation of certain individuals.

    The gay-rights movement was hardly quiescent back in 2007 (or even farther back in 1974 and 1980 -- but this thread is really about Sochi rather than Moscow). The International Lesbian, Gay, Bi, Trans and Intersex Association was founded in 1978. The The International Gay & Lesbian Human Rights Commission was founded in 1990. The The International Lesbian & Gay Law Association was founded in 1999. LGBT Human Rights Project GayRussia was founded in 2005. The Russian LGBT Network was founded in 2006.

    As far as I can tell, these organizations didn't do anything back in 2007 to advocate for awarding the 2014 Games to some other city than Sochi. What's more, they don't seem to think a possible boycott merits any discussion on their websites!

    I am sure that there were LGBTQQI individuals involved in the anti-Sochi lobbying by Greenpeace and those other groups back in 2007, but there is a difference between arguing on environmental grounds that the Games should not be held in Sochi and arguing that on gay-rights grounds that they should not be held there (or should be boycotted). There is also a difference between the actions of one gay man and an entire gay-rights organization.

    Now, when gay-rights groups say that they have a common struggle with the Circassians and Russian journalists, I will have a different view of the matter.

    Having said that, I do think that this post

    reflects, at the very least a total lack of understanding of what danceronice was saying -- that the Soviets oppressed millions of people and many different groups inside and outside their country. Whether it also reflects a lack of caring on your part for those who had their rights and cultural identities trammeled by the Soviets, I will leave for you to determine.

    You got that one right.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2013
  23. Visaliakid

    Visaliakid Well-Known Member

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  24. Jazz

    Jazz Active Member

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    Did you know at Caucasus the Russian regions are Krasnodar Krai, Stavropol Krai, and the autonomous republics of Adygea, Karachay–Cherkessia, Kabardino-Balkaria, North Ossetia, Ingushetia, Chechnya, and Dagestan?! Sochi is located there. It is good to know that more than 90% of Caucasus people are voting for Vladimir Putin, because he always takes into consideration opinions of those people.

    Russians voted for this law, which not allows any gay propaganda for underage children, less than 18 years of age. It has nothing to do with the action against any adult’s lifestyle; adults choose to be gay or lesbian. It was underlined by lawmakers many times in Russian media.

    Before anyone starts claiming something about this issue, the best would be to investigate the roots and analyze the reasons or at least to read the law.

    The Caucasus is one of the most linguistically and culturally diverse regions on Earth. Remember, Russia is not one nation country and opinions of every nation are important to the lawmakers. If 140 million or 99% of the Russians are agreeing with the law, why not to respect it?!

    Don’t do any gay propaganda in Russia when children under 18 years of age around you, that is all.

    You might not agree with the Russian law, but you don’t live there and you don’t know every culture there. Please, do some studies first before starting to criticize something you don’t even have the knowledge. People from developed counties should respect people’s opinion from developing countries ; they might need some time and to come their own way, so please stop to teach your lesson.

    It is hard to believe some people can't to come to this conclusion on their own.

    Many regions in Russia still don’t have the gas and water in houses, Caucasus including. (watch third link below)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5okNCcShRE8
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9LkKIyJAR8
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTj5V1B9fQ4
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwTwH69UZ8U
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ls3e8RUu3pk
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPX8ZN8h2R4
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXQS4V2rhJQ
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rSq6KdVG0Y
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwTrqfnc3vM
     
  25. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    What is propaganda has not been defined. People are saying if a landlord who owns a building with kids under 18 and decides to knowingly rent to a gay couple he might be engaging in propaganda aimed at kids under 18! I've read that! If a man or woman is walking down the street and has a pin with Elton johns face on it he might be engaging in propaganda aimed at kids under 18! I have read that! A shirt with a rainbow on it might be equal to if you are passing out literature about homosexual sex being just as acceptable as heterosexual sex to 13 year olds.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2013
  26. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    I calmed down a bit, so I have a bit more understandable. I'm high interest in Russia, enthrall the size, diversity. Russia is a great potential, and really believe the Russian people are the most strongest people on the World. I love the Russian culture, beautiful buildings, music and ballet. I'm amazed at the country's development of what people achieved during the 20 years of democracy. And then came the news about the law .. I was really surprised, I could not believe it!!! And sometimes we tend to forget just how vast this country is not only made ​​up of a modern metropolitan of Moscow and St. Petersburg. Thank you for the links, great dancers!!! I especially love the first!! (I recognized Roberto Carlos :) )

    This is Russia http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqI8QsAZAYQ so great and incredible.. :lol: and crazy...
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2013
  27. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    I think parts of this thread (if not all of it) may be a better fit in PI.


    Define "gay propaganda". Is it anything that might make an LGBT teenager (because not everyone under 18 is "a child") realize that who they are is not some awful thing and that they are not alone and don't deserve to be ashamed or bullied? Is it anything that might make straight people think that The Gays are not horrible people with some kind of agenda to convert the straights? Anything that makes it clear that being LGBT isn't someone that one "chooses" in adulthood?

    I also don't know the culture in countries where abortion is outlawed even for 11 year old rape victims, or where female circumcision is allowed, or where freedom of speech does not exist, or where children can be put to work in sweatshops. Should people refrain from expressing their opinion in all those cases, too? I think that it should be obvious that cultural relativism can only be taken so far.

    By the same logic, it would appear that many in Russia don't have much knowledge about LGBT issues. Maybe they should educate themselves before legislating anti-gay policies?

    You know, this for the most part I do agree with; sometimes people can be very smug and superior in judging the choices of those from other cultures. But there is a difference between making choices and governing your own life and using bigoted opinions as a basis for legislation that infringes on the rights of others.
     
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  28. dardar1126

    dardar1126 Well-Known Member

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    The opinion of an American gay rights activist...via Twitter:

     
  29. PeterG

    PeterG Argle-Bargle-ist

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    Russia Says It Will Arrest Openly Gay Tourists

    The article doesn't really add much new info to the discussion and some would argue the tone is overly dramatic. No word on whether any ice skaters performing to the Brokeback Mountain soundtrack will be escorted off the ice in the middle of their performance however. ;)
     
  30. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    Russia doesn't say that travel and escape says that based on their reading of the law and that propaganda is everything imaginable! Effeminate actions from a male in a TV sketch show program is illegal to some!
     
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