Discussion in 'Moves In The Field' started by Firefly123, May 7, 2010.
I'm ok until you get to conjugating verbs. Is that Silver?
Yeah, more or less.
You shouldn't have any trouble with the prebronze or bronze moves as long as you take the time to understand the patterns correctly.
If you're not used to doing forward threes and mohawks clockwise, you'll need to practice them. But it's not that hard and the standards aren't that strict at those levels.
There should be no reason why you couldn't pass those tests within a month or two of learning how to do the moves correctly -- you already have enough power and probably don't get caught on your toepicks as much as some tentative adult beginners.
Silver may take you several months or even up to a year, depending whether you could already do back threes and outside mohawks on rollers, whether you bother to play with them on ice outside the context of the moves, and how much time you put into practicing them and checking your technique with a coach.
I really think it will be more cost efficient for you to have at least half an hour of lesson every month or every two weeks while you're working on the silver and higher MITF than to try to learn them all on your own. It'll take more months to unlearn bad habits than to learn skills and patterns correctly in the first place, and it will be a waste of money to sign up for a test and not pass it because you taught yourself something incorrectly.
Expensive and horribly discouraging....
Yes, as much as I do dislike the whole coach idea, I will definitely have to see one....Kind of like a dentist....
Ok, for the sake of understanding the "skate up" rule:
Assuming I did pass Intermediate....
1. I could not use "skate up" rule to skate Masters Junior/Senior because even though the divisions are combined I am technically skipping two levels (not one) because I am only an Intermediate not a Novice.
2. However, this might be a moot point since at many local competitions all of the masters are thrown into one event together anyways.
3. A little confusion here..... If I am in a local event where all the Masters level skaters are grouped together, then even though I am an Intermediate level I should be allowed to use any jump/spin and I should be able to use a longer program because, otherwise the Masters Junior/Senior skaters have an unfair advantage from the get go (more skating time, one more spin element, no cap on jumps.) So I would think I could "upgrade" my program accordingly. I thought I read this might be up to an official's decision, but there should be no question about this. Without allowing the lower level Masters skaters (Intermediate/Novice) to "upgrade" they are put at a severe disadvantage in the first place. Like I said, this one has me confused.
4. You cannot use the "skate up" rule in qualifying competitions (sectionals, nats), only in local competitions that state you can on the announcement.
Depends on what the announcement says. It is up to the referee to decide.
This confusion might be based on what I said about combined levels at my local comeptitions. We never know the levels are combined into "adult" until we get there- hence everyone having different program lengths.
If the announcement has the levels combined from entering the competition the information about the program length and element restrictions should be in the competition announcement.
Are all the Masters ever "lumped" together? (Intermediate/Novice/Junior/Senior).
If so, how could any official "defend" letting the Juniors/Seniors have:
1. A longer program
2. No jump limitation
3. One more spin element
I would think this sets up an "unfair" playing field from the get go????
I must have mistunderstood something here.......
Firefly, you have to understand something about local competitions, ie non-adult competitions. Usually there's one or two adults at each level. Quite often you're the only one at your level, because the higher you go the fewer there are of you. Some locals don't even offer adult events. I'm in an area that is pretty darn big for skating, and I can count on one hand the number of ladies competing at gold. Ditto for the masters intermediate/novice level, and again for the masters jr/senior level.
Bottom line, you can't go to a local for the medal/official results. You go for the enjoyment of competing, or to prepare yourself for a bigger competition.
All adult competitons are differrent. There you would most likely be broken up by level because there's usually more people skating at that level.
Ok. So it is because there are a very small number of adults then......oh.....Still seems unfair, sort of, I mean in theory....but, as you said, in practice it is probably a moot point given the small number of skaters it affects....
If there were sufficient numbers of adults who wanted to do more double jumps with intermediate-level skating skills, there would be a category for that.
The number of adults who do doubles is small. The number who didn't also learn good basic skating skills along the way is much smaller.
Acually, I think I found 4 last time.....No, still not enough for an actual catagory....
Sounds a lot like you're setting yourself up to fail before you even try. There's plenty of coaches who aren't expensive who can teach low level MIF. Believe it or not, a coach will know these moves better than you and you will learn them much faster and correctly from a coach. How is it discouraging to learn them correctly? Wouldn't it be more discouraging to try to do this all yourself and then go back and fix all the bad habits after failing the tests? I mean, you can skate. I've seen your videos. You shouldn't have a problem with the first few moves tests. I know what you posted before, but then I say back to that, if you want to be in Masters but you don't think you can do edges, three turns and brackets, then you don't belong in Masters. Double flip or no double flip. If/when you do decide to get a coach, maybe try have a better attitude with them than you do here? I mean, I really wouldn't enjoy teaching a student who hates everything about what I'm teaching them. They probably will pick up on it.
I teach a FS 1 class. One of the skills on the test is edges on a hockey line: FO and FI. The kids hate doing this. And I sure can tell. I make them do it anyway, otherwise they cannot pass the test. Then their parents will complain that I did not teach the skill, and rightfully so. I teach the skill, acknowledge that they don't enjoy it as much as waltz jumps, but stress that they cannot hope to skate well w/o decent edges. This helps and gets their cooperation for a while. Then we move on to something more fun. I try to mix the skills: something they don't like then something they like.
Let me preface this by saying I don't compete and have not tested for a long time,though I hope to get back to it nx yr. If you compete at a lumped masters/gold event, why not just do whatever the heck you want? There probably are official reasons why not, but if you just want to put your best out there, just do it and let the chips fall. Does your rink have shows/exhibitions? But your best together and debut it there.
Myself, I am a former roller skater, as Firefly mentioned. Rec only. I am assuming Firefly is a trained former competitive roller skater. For the most part, my roller skills transferred well to ice and made me an overall better skater. I still roller skate and probably always will. I can still cut a decent edge on wheels.
I can relate to Firefly's post about the hypothetical good spinner why is not as great a jumper. that is me, for the most part. At my peak, I could spin like a senior, but had no prayer of landing those 2jumps. believe me, I tried. Then I switched to dance and MITF; although I did MITF all along.
I wound up really liking MITF and dance. Spent huge amts of time working on them exclusively. Used to skate whole sessions w/o jumping or spinning. Overall, it made me a better skater. I can only encourage others to try these disciplines. The reward is worth the investment. Find a coach who understands your goals and learning style. If one does not work for you, try someone else.
Most of my students do not like working on basic skills. I encourage them to do a pattern then throw in a jump or spin. Then you get both: good MITF and a nice set up for the element. This translates directly to choreography. It also makes the exercises less dull.
Sorry. Can't like coaches. Never going to happen......But I will be civil, of course, (I'm not a complete psychopath.) And they will teach me the correct patterns because they want the $. I hope to get the basics in a few lessons and move on.....quickly.
Might just do that. Depends on what happens with the whole testing thing. Worst that could happen is that I'm hit with deductions. Lots of deductions.
Yup. I took lessons for 9 years and skated competively during most of the 1980s.
You have to be kidding. I tried dance a few times (on roller.) I'd rather be tied to a red ant hill covered in honey. Seriously. MITF reminds me of dance which is probably why I hate it so much. Some posters said it's not the same, but to me it sure "feels" like a dance. Torture. Pure torture..... Not even to skate with Brad Pitt as a partner (back when he was cute.)
I have tried it and I just can't stand it. Sorry, but it's true. Different strokes for different folks...
Actually, this is quite interesting and relates to the thread about features for jumps (difficult entry.) Um......
I don't want to get into why you feel this way, but it seems kind of self-defeating - and, as others have tried to point out, kind of rude to coaches as a whole, to dismiss them all because you have had bad experiences with a few.
Not all coaches are mean and/or stupid and/or too expensive and/or too demanding, or whatever. There are horrible coaches and there are really good ones. It might take a while to find a really good one that you like, but given what you seem to want to do, it might be worth the effort.
Actually, there are a lot of reasons why I feel that way...but I can't get into it because many of the skaters on the forum are coaches and..... well.... And the thread will get locked....
Suffice to say, I have reasons....
You might have reasons to dislike particular individuals who are coaches. But unless you've taken a lesson from every single coach on Earth and not been able to get along with any of them, it's unfair to dismiss all coaches as being useless.
Exactly. I had a bad experience with my first coach, but my 2nd coach, and another coach I've worked with on my programs, have been great. Most of the other coaches I've come into contact with are also good people. It's just like with other people - some are nice, some are PITA's - if you have a fight with a friend/former friend, do you swear off all friends entirely?
And if you haven't been able to get along with multiple coaches, you might want to ask yourself why. B/c while it's normal to not get along with a few people here or there, if you've had problems with everyone, it might be more your fault than theirs. Just sayin...
First, thanks for anwering my questions on the original thread. I get how "skate up" works now.
As for the coach thing....
Just want to let you know that I'm not ignoring you, but I can't answer because of...... & LOCK.
But....If anyone (especailly any coaches) are really that interested in knowing my reasons (doubt it), but if you really want to know, you can pm me and I'll write you back. (Like I said, I doubt anyone cares that much about it.)
The only thing I will say is that this "personality disorder" only seems to be an issue with skating. This will suprise most of you, but I generally get along with people. Seriously. I do. I hold a job and am well liked, (or at least not disliked) by my co-workers. I have friends. (Not a lot, but serveral good, close friends.) And I do understand why this is an issue with skating.....But I will stop right here.....
I have learned my lesson about this stuff on the threads.
Keep in mind that there ARE coaches out there who WILL take your money and teach you any darned thing you please, right or wrong, because that's all they want is the money. They aren't GOOD coaches and their students don't pass a lot of tests or win a lot of medals. But they're out there earning a decent living every day and their students are on the ice helping to keep the rinks in business...
And they certainly aren't typical of the majority of coaches, who know their stuff, work at keeping up with skills, and actually enjoy imparting that knowledge to students along with the joy and fun that is part of the sport. That's the kind of coach you need to find.
But if you walk in with the gigantic chip on your shoulder you've demonstrated in this thread, the good coaches aren't going to bother with you and you'll be stuck with the money-grubbers - which will only allow you to add more weight to that chip.
Yep, this. Just like students can vote with their feet (like my parents did with my first real riding trainer when they realized I was so terrified I was faking sick to get out of lessons), good coaches don't HAVE to put up with students with serious attitude problems--they can always get a paying customer who ISN'T going to give them lip, and they can and will fire students. Heck, I watched some of the top coaches in the country teach, and they don't take crap. At the highest level, the coach auditions YOU, not the other way around.
And unless you live in/near NYC (in which case good luck, my brother has to drive a 140-mile round trip to get to a barn that gives affordable lessons) it shouldn't be hard to find a good coach with their Senior MITF who ISN'T an arm and a leg. My MITF coach was $40/hour, my dance coaches $60, which is decent for the Boston area. Now, if I had wanted a lesson with some of the TOP coaches, it would have been more like $100/hour. So it would have been $20-$30 for a half hour with my regular teachers (I usually took a full hour.)
I have to admit, now I'm dying of curiosity about what put you off coaches so much...PM me? (If it's an individual psycho I will happily swap stories, I have a couple of those from riding and dance...see above about faking sick to avoid lessons!)
OMG- That's what coaches out here in the middle of nowhere charge. That sounds fantastic for Boston.
Maybe I missed it, but why is it you want to compete? Most of the adults I know compete because they enjoy doing a program to music and performing in front of people. It sounds as though you really only want to jump and spin which means you would not enjoy an awful lot of your program, or the performance. Competitions are not cheap to participate in (ESPECIALLY nationals) and the judges are working within the system--so that if you have good jumps and spins, but no artistry and "in-betweens" that are marginal, if there is strong competition, you might not do as well as you are hoping. The system is really designed to reward skaters who have learned the way the USFS wants skaters to look, and there is still enough room in the IJS system through the GOE scores to allow for that. If you really think you want to compete, you might try skating up to Pre-Bronze at a local competition--which you can usually do without having taken ANY MITF--and see if you enjoy the experience before spending a ton of time and money getting to AN and finding it you dislike the experience!
Since Firefly can do double jumps through flip, I would hope she would realize that she is waaaay above the Pre-Bronze level, and would either compete at the level appropriate for her tech ability (which would be Gold or Masters, and would require the passing of MIF tests) or just continue to compete ISI.
IMO, USFS made a big mistake when they removed the disqual rule based on ISI testing, but I hope ISI skaters will realize that just b/c they haven't passed any USFS tests, doesn't mean they should steamroll over beginner adults.
Believe me, I tought about it. I thought about it HARD. I thought of doing it just to point out what I think is wrong with the USFS competition stucture: Forcing (yes forcing) skaters to pass MITF in order to test/skate freestyle. Let's see...I could put in 2 Level 4 spins and 1 Level 3 spin. Single jumps off difficult transitions and/or with hands over head etc.....The only thing that stopped me is that I realized that the ice skaters all love their system so much (by that I mean the MITF requirement) that they would never question the validity of it and I would come off looking like the jerk.....Not the System.
So no, I would not skate under Masters level even if they did repeal that rule that says I can be protested because I am a Gold (hopefully Platinum in July) level ISI skater.
That is no problem. I don't expect to (or even want to) win the competition. In fact, I fully expect to come in dead last. That's fine with me. (I have a box full of trophies and medals from roller collecting dust in my cellar. Don't want any more. That's not why I'm doing this.) What I do want is to "win" the jumps and spins. Hands down. Obviously. Clear as crystal to any obvserver. And skate the program I want to skate....Not the one the USFS wants me to skate. Think of it like a "civil disobedience" type thing. Not one transition in the entire thing except for those leading directly up to jumps for more points (and to prove I can.) Sure, I'll throw in a spiral sequence if I have to meet that requirement (why not?) but that's it. Nothing else. Only turns will be to set up jumps and spins. No musical interpretation or attempt at a "preformance." I will skate in a plain black unitard or a plain black dress. Absolutely no decoration. Nada. Nothing.
Like I said, I draw the line at acting jerky to the Bronze level skaters to prove my point.....But at Master's level the gloves are off so to speak. The only way for me to really make this point is to have very good jumps/spins and make it obvious that I am deliberately choosing not to do any artistic components because I do not agree with their system and resent having been forced to test MITF. Yes, I will get hammered....But I will feel so much better. This whole thing is not about winning. It was never about winning.
You'd be suprised at how much $ I am willing to spend to make my point. Heck, I may even break my NY/PA rule.
Your jumps seem pretty good but your spins (at least the ones I've seen in your videos) travel, so not sure you'd win a spin comp. Perhaps working on MITF would give you the edge control you are lacking and correct that issue.
Double checked spin video.
Definitely not elite level spins, but I honestly did not see tons of travel there. (Maybe 2 spins.) Did you mean the other ice video when I do jumps, too. I just got back on the ice and things were....freaky. (Yes, I defiitely see much more travel on that video.) But on both videos several spins are sloppy (LIB invert tuck has "loose" edge, toes not pointed down, arm positions etc.) Going to have to work hard on fixing body positions. And I definitely don't like the exits. I'm definitely going to have to fix those, too. ......But that's all doable. If toes ever heal....
Oh! And did you guys notice that under the new spin features we cannot use RIF sit or either upright for the edge change?!! Going to have to start working on LOF sit and camels. Much harder. (Of course, I suppose that was the point.)
Admin Edit: I fixed the link. We don't need to see the entire code on the board.
Why not skate exhibitions? Then you can skate whatever program you want to skate.
I really just do not understand wanting to compete in a sport whose rules you hate so much. I'm excellent at dribbling a basketball, but the hoop is just way too high for me to shoot. I don't b*tch and moan about how the rules are unfair. I realize that my one talent for the sport isn't enough for me to do well in that sport.
Why not stick to roller- since the rules of that sport seem to suit you?
Because I don't want to stay "in the closet" so to speak....Sometimes "civil disobedience" is the only way to bring attention (good and/or bad) to your cause. I do want to compete....just not in the way they want me to. And I am angry....But I have no power ...So what do I do? Think of it as a "sit in." I know I will get arrested and have to pay a fine, but I don't care.
Like Kay said:
Yup. That. Nothing says I can't skate the type of program I want...Yes, I will get hammered on the scoresheet....But then that is the point. Also, several posters in the Dying Swan thread suggested just throwing on whatever music for time and skating the program you want to do. (Which is basically a series of jumps and spins with nothing inbetween.) They wared me that I won't score very well but if that is ok with me then hey knock myself out. (I'm paraphrasing here, but that's the gist.)
So I am just following their advice. But if the jumps and spins are done poorly, it is not a statement. It's just someone who can't skate. The items would have to be done very well for this to work as a sort of protest for a tech event. Under Showcase we have art without a tech mark.....So why not the reverse? OK, no reverse event offered? ...Fine. Well, maybe I'lll just skate it anyway within the only event I'm allowed to skate. Want to stay within the rules, you know.
Well, basketball is a team sport so that makes it a bit different.....But if you can figure out how to set up a "civil disobedience" thing there, I think you should go for it.
Maybe someone else can add more info here.
As I remember back to adult testing before the MITF requirement, I seem to recall the program for the test had to include footwork sequences. Don't remember what they were, but someone here can probably clarify. Didn't these require certain skills we now call MITF and test under that system?
Even at the low levels I coach, edge and turns skills are required for freeskate tests. Kids don't like them as much as jumps and spins, but they are important and I make them do those skills. When they get older, they will thank me.