Skating UP????

Discussion in 'Moves In The Field' started by Firefly123, May 7, 2010.

  1. Firefly123

    Firefly123 New Member

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    Ok. Just double checking if I understand this right. (Sorry, I tired to find a thread with this in it but haven't had any luck. I know you've probably explained it before but I just can't find it.....) :(

    Let's say that on a wing and a prayer (OK, wide wing and long prayer ;)), I am able to pass Intermediate MITF and FS. Then, I understand that I am able to skate Masters Intermediate/Novice. So far, so good. :)

    I heard you can skate "up" one division. Is this right? So, in my case I would be allowed to skate Masters Junior/Senior and make any corresponding changes I want in my program (ie. add 2flip, another spin etc.) to compete at this new level. Right?

    So..... which competitions allow this? I would guess you can't do this at sectionals or adult nats....But do all local competitions allow this? Or only some? Is it common? Are there any restrictions? (eg. Can not skate up one level unless you are signed up to skate your own level etc.)
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2010
  2. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    You can't skate up at qualifying competitions or Adult Nationals (even in the non-championship events, I think).

    I THINK that the adult sectional competitions also offer non-qualifying competitions (for example Bronze is a non-qualifying level, so I would think at sectionals a bronze skater could go to Silver if they wanted), but it's possible they don't for the qualifying levels, so maybe you couldn't skate up there either. I honestly don't know... so just pretend I didn't answer that part of the question. Because Intermediate/Novice is combined, I'm not sure if you were an Intermediate test level you'd be allowed to skate up to Junior/Senior. You can only skate up 1 level, and that seems to be 2 levels, even though since they are combined it's only 1. I don't know that either.

    However- this is the part I meant to answer- I have never seen a local competition that offered adult events past Gold. If you wanted to skate Intermediate/Novice/Junior/Senior, you would skate with the kids. And yeah, you could skate up a level, but honestly, with the kids, I wouldn't want to skate up. (I have seen an adult compete open juvenile before. I think he's passed his Intermediate now.)

    Your program should fit the level you are competiting in.
     
  3. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    Look at the competition announcement. If skating up is allowed, the competition announcement will say that.

    Obviously you are talking about the US system and I'm not in the US....but where I am, there is no firm policy that applies to all competitions, and allowing skaters to skate up is the decision of the competition organizers.
     
  4. purple skates

    purple skates Shadow dancing

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    I believe if you are novice you can skate either champ int/nov or champ jr/sr at adult sectionals. I don't think that applies to intermediate, though, and you should check with your section adult chair to be sure.
     
  5. Firefly123

    Firefly123 New Member

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    Yikes!! :yikes:

    Thanks for the good points, skittl. To be honest, I never even considered half of those problems/circumstances....

    1. If Masters Intermediate/Novice is combined then do I get to skate Junior/Senior with only the Intermediate (not novice test)???????

    2. I just assumed all adult levels were offered at every competition. :duh: If they only offer to Gold, then where would a skater who passed Intermediate skate? They couldn't/shouldn't skate "down" right? (Or is that because no one at the Masters level signed up? So if I signed up there would only be.......me???) :confused:

    3. Even if I were to skate against the kids (at Intermediate) is it permitted? (Since I passed the MITF at the lower adult average?) And skating up one level would make me Novice, then, right? (No, don't want to try THAT without at least a clean 2axel and 1or 2 triples.) :lol:

    4. The program can change to fit the level. Yes, that is what I was thinking. The program can change to fit the level. :)
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2010
  6. Firefly123

    Firefly123 New Member

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    Oh, so it's up to the individual competition, then. (Except qualifying competitions like Sectionals and Nationals.) I wonder if this a common practice (skating up, I mean) or if it is unusual?
     
  7. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    There are a few nonqualifying adult competitions that do hold masters events.

    Here are the IJS results for the one in the Washington, DC area: http://wfsc.net/docs/NYI_2010/index.htm

    I can't find a copy of the announcement online any more.

    If I remember correctly, the wording of the prerequisites allowed skaters who qualified for Gold by test level to compete in Masters Intermediate/Novice but did not have a similar provision for Int/Nov skaters to compete in Junior/Senior.

    However, if you did find yourself in that situation and would only be interested in entering if you could enter Junior/Senior, you could write to the referee and request permission to skate up to that event. Worst that could happen would be they'd refuse.

    And there might be a point, e.g., next year, where you would have tested only as far as gold but would want to compete in Int/Nov, so that should be possible.

    Peach Classic in Georgia is another adult nonqual that offers all levels of adult events. Look for the 2010 announcement on their website probably later this spring: http://www.gafsc.org/peachclassic/

    I'm not sure if there are other adult competitions closer to where you are. There used to be one in the Philadelphia area at IceWorks, but it was canceled last year and I don't know if they're planning to revive it.
     
  8. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    As far as most clubs are concerned the adult levels are PreBronze, Bronze, Silver and Gold. And even those aren't always offered- sometimes the category is just 'adult'. If you wanted to skate intermediate, you would just skate intermediate. If there are other Master's skaters in your area you might be able to petition a club to add the level to their competition.

    No- you definetly aren't allowed to skate down.

    From what I've read online people are saying that if you pass the moves test at any standard you are eligible to take the standard track freeskate test. The freeskate test qualifies you to skate in the level. So if you passed the intermediate freeskate test you are eligible to compete in that level. The majority of non-qual competitions allow you to skate up one level, so you could skate novice if you wanted to. But since most won't offer "adult novice" I doubt you would want to- kids skate much higher than their test level, where adults tend to stick to the elements near their test.

    Another option for you would be to go standard track. You could compete Open Juvenile, and it would likely be against older teens (since Juvenile has an age limit Open Juv is for those who have aged out before they get to intermediate. I've seen adults in this level.) No triples are permitted in open juv, but you'd get the full range of doubles and you must have a flying spin.

    I really think competiting intermediate would be tough for an adult.
     
  9. purple skates

    purple skates Shadow dancing

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    I don't think so, but the best source for this is individual competition chairs or your section adult chair for sectionals/AN.

    Quite often I have skated against masters skaters at local (non-adult only) competitions. I'm usually doing those competitions as a warm up for sectionals, so I don't really care if I get my backside kicked because I'm more interested in getting a judge's critique. Occasionally, though, I have beaten the masters skater. :)
     
  10. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    What level are you? Are you saying that master's skaters entered lower levels? A ref shouldn't allow that.

    Or was it the case of an "adult" event. (We get that here a lot- everyone will be shocked to know that the skaters tend to place according to their tests. It's also supremely unfair that the high level adults get more TIME for their programs- so even if the Bronze skater could do more elements, they aren't allowed the same amount of time as the Gold skater in the event, and the Bronze skater is restricted from flying spins, while the Gold one is not. Competitions in my area have issues.)
     
  11. Firefly123

    Firefly123 New Member

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    Thanks for that advice, gkelly. :) Yes, I could do that. :D

    Yes, that is what I am thinking. Maybe I can get up through Gold by next year and see how things are there. ;) Then, I can skate up to Masters Intermediate if it is offered. It is only the difference of the 2loop.

    I agree with skittl, that is unfair if only because the higher levels are allowed more skating time and more items.
     
  12. Debbie S

    Debbie S Well-Known Member

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    I think sk8er1964 is referring to when, due to lack of entries, Gold and Masters skaters are combined into 1 event - so technically, the Gold skater(s) is/are skating up to Masters. In a non-qual comp, such decisions are the discretion of the ref and the LOC. I've seen compulsory moves and spins events with combined levels (like Pre-Bronze/Bronze or Silver/Gold) but not FS, but I don't think there's a rule against it.

    At most adult comps (other than Sectionals and AN) "Masters" is offered as an all-encompassing level for anyone who has passed Int FS or higher (and Gold skaters can skate up, since it is non-qual). There usually aren't enough entries to split levels and at that level, it makes more sense to have as big a group as possible. I believe at AN, Masters skaters can skate up 1 level, so in order to skate Champ Junior/Senior, a skater would have to have passed at least Novice FS.
     
  13. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    Okay that makes sense. The way it was written it made me think they were entering lower levels. Combining levels makes a lot more sense (and like I said happens way too frequently, with levels way too far apart, here)
     
  14. Firefly123

    Firefly123 New Member

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    OK. So let's say that a skater who is gold level is skating up at one of these competitions. And let's say said skater is capable of 2flip/lutz for example. Now, the skater is prohibited from using this item in his/her routine as a Gold level skater, but since the skater is skating up a level (to Masters Intermediate which would STILL prohibit 2flip/lutz) and since all the Masters Levels are combined into one.....then, technically, this skater could use 2flip/lutz even though they are, technically, a Gold level skater? Right?:confused: Wrong? :confused: Help!!:duh:

    So....for adult nats, a Masters Intermediate/Novice skater would at least need to be Novice to skate up to Junior/Senior.....Yes, that makes sense (unfortunately). For a minute there I thought I found a loophole. Take MITF up to Intermediate and skate Masters Junior/Senior.:D Should have known it was too good to be true. :rolleyes:
     
  15. purple skates

    purple skates Shadow dancing

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    Yes. The announcements usually say gold/masters or that gold and masters can be combined. It doesn't bother me. It would at an all adult competition, but not at the regular ones.

    Skittl - I'm at the gold level.
     
  16. Debbie S

    Debbie S Well-Known Member

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    Theoretically, yes, but it depends on the rules of the competition. Check the announcement.
     
  17. Firefly123

    Firefly123 New Member

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    I will have to be very careful about reading the announcements....What is allowed, isn't allowed etc.

    Wow!! This whole skating thing is a lot like law school. :D No wonder everyone says get a lawyer...(I mean a coach.) ;)
     
  18. coskater

    coskater New Member

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    To skate champ jr/sr (Adult sectionals and nationals) you must have your nov fs test, period. That means Nov FM then Nov FS passed.

    Locally non qual comps are different, some events combine gold and masters others do not. If you find an event with a masters level event it may be open and you can skate a 3;40 program with no jump limit. As everyone has said read the announcement, that will tell you the rules for that event.
     
  19. Stormy

    Stormy Well-Known Member

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    Here's the thing with adult skating, I don't find skating up very common. With most of us having limited time and money, you want to concentrate your efforts on the level you actually can skate at. I did skate up to Gold at Non-qual Easterns once, but that was because it was basically my Silver program with an extra 30 seconds in the middle. It was easy to switch the two programs, but I was still Silver for the rest of that season.

    I understand what you're getting at, and I supposed if you really wanted to skate up at non-quals to Masters Jr/Sr after passing Intermediate MIF and FS you could. But since you couldn't skate at ANs or Sectionals under Masters Jr/Sr, I don't much see the point of it. I'd honestly suggest to you to try to pass the Intermediate MIF/FS first and try your hand at Masters Int/Novice and see how you fare before jumping in to the "big time". A lot of the Jr/Sr ladies are former competitive Senior level skaters and they skate like it. I know this sounds blunt and I don't mean it to be, but just because you have some doubles doesn't mean you'd be competitive in Jr/Sr at all, at the National (and sometimes Sectional) level, at least. For someone who hasn't passed any USFS tests at all, I think you might be putting the cart before the horse trying for Jr/Sr. Int/Novice sounds like a much more realistic goal, for the short term, at least.
     
  20. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    Well, it's not common, but there are several reasons it can happen.

    *Skater is new to USFS competition, switching over from ISI or another country or roller, and hasn't yet had time to pass all the tests to compete at the appropriate/desired level

    *Skater is returning as an adult whose last test was prelim, pre-juv, or juvenile, can still do flying spins, axel, and/or various double jumps and skate with good power but hasn't yet passed and doesn't currently have the skills to immediately pass gold or intermediate or novice MITF to test to the level where his/her favorite elements are allowed in adult competition, where the program length allows including more skills, or where IJS feedback is available

    *Skater started as an adult and can and wants to compete with some elements from higher levels (flying spins, axels, doubles) but can't yet pass the necessary MITF tests or maybe can't pass the freestyle test (can't achieve a recognizable sitspin position for the bronze test, can't sustain a camel spin long enough for the silver test, can land one or more doubles but not axel for the gold)

    *Skater could just barely pass the next freestyle test but chooses not to test up because then she or he would be stuck at that level and not allowed to drop back to the most appropriate competitive level as skills decline with age, but would like the challenge of competing at the higher level during the brief window when the body can handle longer programs and harder jumps they're likely to "have" only for a brief period of time

    *Convenient local club competitions to enter tend to have a good field at the next higher level and no one to compete against at the skater's test level -- given the choice to skate up or get their entry fees refunded and not compete at all, they choose to skate up
     
  21. Firefly123

    Firefly123 New Member

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    I do understand what you're getting at (and no offence taken). :)

    Recently, as you know, I have been considering taking the USFS tests and competing (primarily because the ISI competitions are so far away.) As I see it I basically have 2 options:

    1. (Probably reflecting most forum members' position) says: Stay at a lower level where the jumps are capped but work very hard on your transitions/footwork/presentation. In this manner you will improve your basic skating skills and become a much better and complete skater. And, under a 6.0 judging system, this may be the best approach if you want to get the hightest scores.

    2. While it's true that you have to take MITF in order to compete, you can "get away with" only taking the tests up to the very lowest level in order to use your jumps. If you can "skip" by using the "skate up" option then.....GREAT!!:D Then, you can continue working on the jumps and don't have to bother very much with the transitions and other elements that you are not fond of. Under ISJ this might actually be a doable strategy because the jumps are worth so much base value (although, granted, the adult skaters usually use 6.0 at local meets, so it's probably not a very good idea there.)

    The upside of this approach is that, obviously (because I am immature or lazy or whatever) this appeals to me the most. :) The downside is that I'd never be able to use the skate up option at qualifying events so I couldn't use my best items at any of them. :( Although, realistically, I cannot afford to travel outside my state, so I'd probably only attend Nats if it was a Lake Placid, anyways. So this option might work since I'd only be attending local events (where they often combine levels), in the first place. :D

    Not trying to make anyone mad. Just reviewing my options. :)

    Yes, I have seen some on youtube. :)
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2010
  22. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    I think part of Stormy's point though is that you'll be competiting against skaters with all the jumps and flying spins you like to do who ALSO have the footwork and transitions of elite skaters.

    And the former elites I've met may have lost some of their highest jumps, they rarely lose their edge quality. I think they'd be tough to compete against without the same command of the ice.
     
  23. Firefly123

    Firefly123 New Member

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    Skittl,
    Right now I'm just going over options. I'm not sure what I'm going to decide.

    I think maybe it is easier to explain if I use spins (since you are a spinner). ;)

    You said you are a very good spinner and are even working on the flying sit. That's awesome!! :eek: Now let's say you worked really hard on that move and you have a nice high, centered flying sit, but you are not allowed to use that spin in competition until Master's level. (I understand that you can use it beneath this level, I am just trying to make a point.) You worked really, really hard on that spin and you are proud of it and you should be!! :) ......But, because of the limitation rule on adults, you can't use it until you land an axel and at least 2 doubles (in order to pass the Intermediate Freeskate). Jumping is hard for you. Spinning is your speciality. It is your strength that can bring you the most points....And, as a really good spinner, that would be your strategy...to use the spins to gain the points. Now, some skater who can do a Level 4 spiral or footwork sequence at your level (I know it is unlikely, but theoretically, it is possible), she is allowed to put that it....But not your spins. Not until you get those jumps and go up several levels. Sorry. :( Wouldn't you be a bit.....fustrated and demoralilzed? Especially if we were not only talking about one spin but 3 or 4 upper level spins you could do really well (let's say an edge change camel, a flying camel and a deathdrop), but you were not allowed to use because of the test system/adult caps. That is why I am looking at options. MITF is very hard for me. I will do it because I have to .....but if there is a way around some of it, some sort of loophole, of course I will try to take it. Nothing wrong with that as long as it is allowed.

    You are right.:) But at least I could use my best moves and feel like I did my best instead of having to hold my best items back while others (spinners, footwork and spiral specialists) do not.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2010
  24. Stormy

    Stormy Well-Known Member

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    You hit the nail on the head. :) You could have a program with level 4 spins and spirals and still get slammed on your PCS scores. If you have weak skating skills, transitions, etc in Jr/Sr, it would be very, VERY obvious.


    Skating up isn't a "loophole". I still say even if you hate MIF and the way USFS testing is structured, you have to play by our rules if you want to play our games. :) There isn't a way around it. I haven't watched your videos in a while but honestly, if you're doing double loops, flips and lutzes with correct technique, MIF shouldn't be that hard for you. I'm not sure why you hate it so much. If you truly think you're a Masters level skater, then you shouldn't be saying you'd need a wing and a prayer to pass low level moves. Those should be cake for a true Masters level skater, even a Masters Int/Novice skater.

    I totally get your point about wanting to use your best elements, and it's a very valid point. But if you try to compete in Jr/Sr with only your Intermediate MIF and FS, you're at an extreme disadvantage. You're competing against people with their Senior MIF/FS and likely a bunch of dance tests too. If you just want to go out there with your best elements and see what happens, that's cool. Just make sure you have very realistic expectations of the outcome.
     
  25. Firefly123

    Firefly123 New Member

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    Stormy,
    Yup, I'd have to get as many points as possible on the jump/spin elements but concede the transition mark to the other skaters. (I understand that.) :)

    Now, that we don't have to be contortionists, I think I can hold my own on the choreo step seq. So it would only be the preformance/transition mark that would pose the difficulty. Admittedly, under 6.0 this could be a problem, but not so much under ISJ. I may be wrong here, but I do think that under ISJ if you can manage decent jumps/spins and get credit for them, then you can pull ahead of better skaters (ie. good at "skating" skills like transitions, smooth edges etc.), who might have difficutly with level 4 spins and jump combos. I just think that is how the scoring system is set up, but I could be wrong here. Obviously, at standard Novice, Junior and Senior this is not much of an issue (unless you end up with a Bonaly):lol:, because so many skaters have the "complete package," but within the adult structure, especially at my age level (40+) and with my own set of skills, I think I could compete best in this way.....

    I'm not sure how to explain this. Only an ex-roller or gymnast would understand. I think Kay understands, maybe she can help. The best way to explain it is to say that our edges are not your edges. While this did not hamper me on transfering the jumps/spins onto ice, it does affect a discipline that looks at nothing but "correct" edges......MITF. I still skate "roller" and probably always will. (It is a muscle memory thing like wrapping on jumps.) It really can't be "fixed." :( Question: Why doesn't Nakano just "fix" her wrap. (After all, most people agree it cost her several high level competitions.) Answer: Because she can't without loosing the jumps. It is too ingraned in her muscle memory. That is what I am saying... Maybe I'm not explaining it right. Do you get it? :confused:

    However....

    I feel really bad when everyone else goes to competitions and I am left behind at the rink. :( And it really bothered me this Adult Nationals...

    So....
    Yup. As much as I hate the idea, I guess I will be taking the MITF so that I can test up to Masters. Maybe "loophole" wasn't the right word.....But if I can find a way to do the lest MITF and be allowed to skate with the highest level jumps (which are my "stong point") then that would be best for me. :)
    Skating up would be one option. ISI is another (which I've already done.) Like I said, I decided to skate USFS because (for the sake of $ and time off work issues), I need to stay in my home state (NY) or very close by (maybe PA). Skating USFS would open up a whole bunch of competitions vs. the 2 or 3 a year I could actually attend under ISI..... So onward to the Pre-Bronze MITF :yikes:
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2010
  26. purple skates

    purple skates Shadow dancing

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    Firefly - do you have a subscription to Ice Network? You can get real good idea of adult skating under the IJS there, because they have video and the score sheets.
     
  27. southernskater

    southernskater New Member

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    I'm not trying to be mean, but if you got a moves coach to teach you the correct patterns with the right arm positions and intro steps it might not be as challenging for you as you think. I don't know exactly what is on the adult track tests since I tested standard, but if you just do a few moves lessons with a coach it won't be too hard. I have looked at the patterns and watched people on YouTube and in practice, but when I showed my coach some of the pre- juv moves patterns I was working on (that she had showed me in that past) there were some problems with my arms and shoulders that she had to fix. Also your edges will improve and your jumps will get much better. I know lessons are expensive, but you will improve much faster
     
  28. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    Oh come on- you're being ridiculously dramatic here. I can understand being worried about Intermediate MITF, or maybe even Gold- but Pre-Bronze?

    If you can do a double jump, you can pass pre-bronze. The edge quality needed there is non-existant. Want proof- my pre-bronze test is on youtube. Go to youtube and serach my user name (or the link is in my signature on skating forums).

    The patterns do need to be what the rulebook says- but the 3 turns don't have to be exactly on the top of the lobe like they will need to be later. Same with the waltz-8, it needs to be reasonly close to the pattern in the book- but this is an encouragement test.
     
  29. Firefly123

    Firefly123 New Member

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    Skittl,
    OK.......Bronze MITF,then. :yikes:

    Oh! I finally figured out how to explain the edge thing it so it makes sense.:D It is almost exactly like speaking a foreign language.

    Since I didn't start on ice I learned roller edges. (It is like growning up in Japan and speaking ONLY Japanese until you are 15. No English language contact at all).....Yes, I know foreign cultures learn languages early. It's just an example, bear with me. ;)

    Then this individual moves to the US were he/she must use English. There is the problem. The Japanese speaker can learn the English language.... But for many non-native speakers it is difficult to think in English. They will think in their native language and then very quickly translate what they want to say into English so they can speak. That is exactly how it is for me on ice!!!! Totally. Exactly. Bingo!! :D

    Now some foreign speakers with a lot of natural talent and/or people who have used English the longest may start to think in English instead of their native language.....But for some who aren't so gifted, well, they just continue to think in Japanese and quickly translate (especially for difficult concepts). That is why MITF is so hard for me. I can translate the jumps/spins much more easily than I can the MITF. (Probalby because I can "fix" a problem on those items by quickly adjusting my bodyweight to "save" the item if necessary vs MITF where I bad step is, well......a bad step. :duh:)

    I know many posters on this forum speak/read/write several languages. :eek: Do you know what I mean? Do you agree?

    I'm not saying that with a lot of effort the MITF can't be done. (They can)......But with a lot more effort than most people would suppose for a skater capable of deathdrops and 2flips.....:( :wall: :duh: :yikes:
     
  30. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    Fine, I'll give you this one.

    But the pre-bronze is going to be like learning to count to 10 in anothe language- I can do that in like 5 or 6 of them. No one is saying MITF are going to be easy. I've had to change habits from dance for skating, but I was never great at dancing, and I'm not really good at skating so it hasn't been too difficult. My biggest difficulties have been chronic injuries.

    Having been great at roller- it will definetly be a challenge. But the whole sport is supposed to be a challenge.