Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by sk8ingcoach, Jul 11, 2013.
Who are some skaters that you believe have good PCS but don't receive the marks
There are a few Australian skaters I would like to nominate.
Cheltzie Lee, Nicholas Fernandez, and Danielle O'Brien & Greg Merriman.
Davis and White
I'm a huge Davis and White fan. I don't understand your comment about their PCS. Aren't 9.75-10's sufficient?
Is this ironic ?
The ladies in general tend to receive lower PCS than in the other disciplines: for instance, in 2012 Carolina Kostner won Worlds without getting a single component score over 8.4 in either program (and none above 8 in the SP), while Patrick Chan got high 8s/low 9s, and the ice dancers are close to 10 at times (unjustifiably close, in some cases). That was really perplexing, and though the ladies did get higher PCS at 2013 Worlds, I fail to see why they're not in the ballpark of what the top pairs and ice dancers get.
I'm having a tough time coming up with specific examples, especially as there are quite a few skaters whom I haven't seen live. Akiko Suzuki's marks tend to be low at times for what she does, and I thought there were times last season when the judges could have gone a bit higher with James/Cipres. Jonathan Cassar's weaker jumps really hurt his PCS when he competed.
This thread looks like it was made to mention Akiko Suzuki... apart from her, I'm not to sure. Maybe Kozuka would be another candidate, his skating skills are to die for and his SP this last season was amazing.
And then there are probably a lot of unknown skaters or newbies, that just don't get any love because they don't have any reputation.
Taka!!!! who immediately comes to my mind..
Well there was a judge who didn't give them 10s for P&E and IN at Worlds, so clearly they are underscored worse than Akiko and Kozuka combined.
Wait, what!?! I thought the new system was supposed to do away with reputation judging.
Well, it can decrease the degree of reputation judging, but I don't think you can do away with it entirely as long as you're dealing human beings. Even 100% honest well-meaning judges will be unconsciously influenced by reputation. And by skate order.
And also by how many years the skater has been in international competitions. That's not always the same as age. Akiko probably suffers from breaking into the Japanese team so late in her career.
People say Kiira gets beauty PCS, but she was just as beautiful under 20 and her scores were a lot lower. It's age/perseverance PCS.
Some of it is reputation -- but also some of it is skaters actually getting better at the various component criteria.
Even just watching on video, it seems to me that Korpi's basic skating was much better the last time I watched her skate than the first time.
Even though it seems Kiira gets the SWP (Skating While Pretty) PCS boost, she really does have nice PCS. Good speed, clean crisp edges, lovely presentation, programs and interpretation...her TR are decent but not great. I think her easier jump content pisses people off and they feel she doesn't deserve to get high components for lower level technical content but that's the way the system works.
I think Akiko is consistently undermarked (duh) across nearly every field. I think Christina deserved a slight hike in her PCS particularly in the SP last season for her CH and IN. Zijun got low PCS until her FS at worlds; after that her marks magically jumped into the 7s instead of the mid 6s.
I think a number of skaters are overmarked in areas but I won't go into details...
PCS are still a crock of sh*t and are used as a way to boost/hold down skaters...
O'Brien and Merriman are underrated. While there are a lot of improvements they could make technically, they always perform the heck out of their programs (especially her).
Definitely Suzuki. Sometimes Kostner. I'd argue that Osmond was underscored PCS wise in some areas, not in others.
Kozuka. Viktor Pfeiffer and Peter Liebers.
I agree with Suzuki but c'mon, Kostner? She is undoubtedly the queen of PCS, the only one can surpass Kostner's PCS is Yuna's, but I even doubt it, if Kosnter clean no one know what will happen
Akiko of course is under-marked. It is ridiculous when people like ashley wagner have higher PCS than Akiko
Someone who doesnt get good PCS is Amelie Lacoste. i think deserves higher than what she gets
Skaters who didn't win any medals are all under marked in PCs!
Liebers is just underscored all around!
Suzuki and Kozuka are the winners of this dubious prize, in my view.
A couple other skaters who she have received higher PCS (mostly retired):
It's impossible to make a sweeping argument about all components and all competitions of a particular skater. A skater may get the SS score he/she deserves, but not the IN score. Or a skater may deserve her/his component scores at a certain event for a certain program, but not other events and/or other programs.
A good example is 2010 US Nationals men's free skate. Ryan Bradley got 7-8 across the board. 8 may be well deserved for performance/execution and choreography, but 7 was too high for his skating skills.
I don't think there is a widespread conspiracy to "keep someone down." Hence anyone is hard pressed to identify more than one or two skaters who are widely considered undermarked for components. It is more apparent, on the other hand, that Patrick Chan is often overmarked for IN and CH, but marked correctly (ie, according to the rules) for SS, TR, and PE, while Akiko is often undermarked for IN and CH, but the other components are usually marked within reason. Kozuka may deserve higher SS scores, but his performance and interpretation are frequently awkward and lack a freedom of movements or connection/projection with the audience and therefore deserve the low P/E and IN scores.
One cannot make a claim of undeserving component scores for every competition and every program. A usually excellent skater can have subpar choreography and/or performance at a specific event and should be penalized accordingly.
The criticism of reputation judging is valid. A subpar program and/or performance of a usually reliable "star" skater SHOULD be penalized as heavily as the faces unknown to international judges. The system needs to make an effort to better minimize reputation judging (probably unintentional in most cases).
Chan is often undermarked in PCS. Suzuki as well. Kozuka looks down at the ice and doesnt project at all so his PCS are right. Oda is undermarked in PCS sometimes.
Asada is overmarked in PCS when Kim and Kostner arent around, then undermarked when they are.
I dunno. Zemgirl's point is interesting - that despite her often intriguing choreography, strong interpretation skills and the like, she's a mid to high 8 skater. Objectively, it just strikes me as weird that the "queen of PCS" can't crack 9s, but someone like Kevin Reynolds can score 8's.
I find most pairs overscored PCS wise.
CHAN is undermarked in PCs? Whaaaat?! Chan receives high scores for everything! How much higher can his PCs possibly get?!
Evora & Ladwig were much undermarked on PCS. They were by far the most polished U.S pair at the time but never got credit for it. How can Caydee Denney and her various partners get higher or comparable PCS when she has the ugliest leg lines and style of any female pair skater ever.
Liebers (not just PCS, in everything, thank goodness he finally got the scores he deserved at Worlds this year and secured himself 2 GPs!)
Mura (great skater, way underrated)
Murakami (her interpretation is so much stronger than someone like Gold who gets compared or higher PCS as a total newbie)
Gao (artistic marks should be higher than Zawadzki and Gold IMO, by a few points)
Korobeynikova (she never breaks the low 50s in the FS, I don't understand, she has strong basics, moves beautifully, and is not tone deaf like others)
Simancikova (such a strong jumper, if she'd finally start getting some decent PCS from the judges she could threaten for a Euros medal)
Interesting. Single skaters are listed more than pair/dance skaters. Single's judges are tend to be worse?
Akiko Suzuki takes first prize,
Honourable mention goes to Brooklee Han...that was the consensus of everyone sitting around me at worlds
Simply because she was NOT clean, unless the score will crack 9s
Beside Kostner, who else could scored around 70 PCS with the flawed program???? (2013 Worlds FS)
Patrick Chan wasn't clean at the 2011 or 2012 Worlds in the long program. He got nines (ditto Worlds 2013, but it wasn't his average). Patrick Chan was squeaky clean in the short at Worlds 2011. He couldn't get nines.
Virtue/Moir had a huge fall in the GPF SD of 2011. Got nines
Voloszhar/Trankov had a fall in the LP of Worlds 2013. Got nines.
Now, I agree that very few could get away with a flawed program scoring that high in PCS, but I believe that's because she's quite strong in a lot of areas. Having said that, I find it intriguing that even being that strong doesn't always lead her to break that ceiling.
Case and point - her SP at WTT 2012. A perfect performance of an intriguing and ambitious short program. Her PCS: 33.14. That translates to mid to low 8s (8.285).
Hmm, I compared Kostner in the ladies field What the point you compare her with Chan - the one usually overscored? The fact she got lower score than Chan doesn't mean she underscored. I don't think we can really compare the scoring for ladies with the men or dance
But anyway, we have own opinion. Peace!
I suspect that Kevin's PCS also reflects the multiple quad jumps he consistently attempts and that he would never crack 8s - maybe not even 7s - if he had Carolina's jump content?
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