Skaters who can dominate both in IJS and 6.0.

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by torren, May 30, 2013.

  1. torren

    torren New Member

    132
    7
    0
    Are there skaters who do you think can dominate in both of systems?
    That skaters have to have all of these - consistency, high quality jumps, high-difficulty jumps, strong mentality, artistry etc etc.

    Here are another topics.
    Who do you think are most friendly skater with IJS, and most weak or having the disadvantage under 6.0 ? Or who do you think are most friendly skater with 6.0 system, and most weak or having the disadvantage under IJS?
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2013
  2. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

    8,217
    1,278
    113
    Midori Ito
    Yu Na Kim
    Rodnina
    G/G
    David Jenkins
    Slutskaya
    Young Kwan
    Biellman
    Fratianne
    Young Chen Lu
    Boitano
    Orser
    Plushenko
    Goebel
    Yagudin
    Kulik
    Demetriev
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2013
  3. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    13,704
    787
    113
    I think Yagudin and Plushenko for sure fit the bill. I think Gordeeva & Grinkov, prime Shen & Zhao, prime Totmianina & Marininm and Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze would all fit the bill. I think Klimova & Ponomarenko, Torvill & Dean, and Gritschuk & Platov would have been super strong and even harder to beat under COP. Slutskaya although she probably has more potential dominance under COP than she did under 6.0, especialy as her errors she inherently made were not as costly under COP as 6.0 as the 2005 Worlds proved. I think Ito would have been very strong under COP as well, just as she was under 6.0. I think Yamaguchi would have been very formidable under COP, not huge GOE on the jumps but would have collected enough points in many other ways to compensate. I think Kwan up until 2001 would have been very competitive under COP, but after 2001 much less so and thankful to be under 6.0 at that point.

    Boitano and Orser would have been great under COP too. Asada would have been even more formidable IMO under 6.0, although she has won 2 World titles and been fairly dominant under COP. Cohen is quite strong on both, especialy the 2004-2006 version of Cohen. Biellmann would have been devastatingly strong in her prime under COP I think, and of course was dominant in free skating even under 6.0. Lastly I think Debi Thomas would have been super strong under COP, especialy a COP that included figures too, but even without would have been. She really had all the attributes needed, quality elements in all respects, great combinations,, strong basics, strong programs with transitions, moves in field and difficult entries into jumps.


    Some skaters who are much more dominant under COP or would have been under COP than 6.0 would be Arakawa (although she won a World title under both),
    Ando, Lysacek, Flatt, Savchenko & Szolkowy, Duhamel & Radford, Chan, Davis & White, Buttle, Sato, and Eldredge. Chan, Lysacek, and Ando especialy I dont see being much of a factor at all under COP. Chan on a good day might be, but how often does he have those. Eldredge would have had a better career under COP probably, and I think Yuka Sato would have as well. Meanwhile some 6.0 skaters who COP would have been a nightmare for would be Stojko, Urmanov, Sale & Pelletier, Duchensays, Usova & Zhulin, maybe Anissina & Peizerat, for sure Fusar Poli, Lobacheva & Averbuhk, Hughes (her career highlight would probably be 7th at Nationals or something under COP), Baiul, Chen, Sumners, Witt, Scott Hamilton perhaps, Woetzel & Steuer.
     
  4. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    13,704
    787
    113
    Did I read that right.
     
  5. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

    4,366
    916
    113
    Of course, we'll never know for sure, but I believe that today's top skaters would do great under 6.0 (and probably produce some memorable programs, without the 35-second step sequences, never-ending spin combos and all the other restrictions).
     
  6. smartblade

    smartblade New Member

    52
    1
    0
    Kristi yamaguchi's Samson and Delilah and maleguena programs is slightly tweaked could win medals today 21 years later. outside camel spin, flying sit spin, catch layback... just needs the rotation count for higher level. now that the spiral step isn't as valued and like yu na kim has the triple lutz triple toe combo and struggles with the edge jumps. Kristi however benefits over kim cause she struggles with the salchow lesser value than the loop that kim seems to omit from her programs.
     
  7. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

    8,217
    1,278
    113
    He was dominant in that he was on the podium at everything level of competition for years on end.
     
  8. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    13,704
    787
    113
    Yes but all under 6.0. Once COP came into play he was finished.
     
  9. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

    10,805
    2,394
    113
    I have no doubt that, had some version of the IJS been introduced 10 or 15 years earlier, Michelle Kwan and Kurt Browning would have won at least as often as they did under 6.0.
     
  10. giselle23

    giselle23 Active Member

    618
    161
    43
    I don't know if pairs count, but Shen and Zhao.
     
  11. shady82

    shady82 Active Member

    473
    31
    28
    I think Ando would have been more competitive under 6.0 than CoP. She reasonably consistently lands her 3lutz-3loop and was penalized many times for URs on this combination. At her peak, she is definitely competitive under 6.0 because she can land the most difficult jump content and has ok artistry. While her artistry isn't that great, it isn't bad enough to keep her out of the running. Flatt as well, she was remarkably consistent with sound technique, and also consistently landed 3-3s in her prime. She would definitely have been medal material under the late 6.0 years if she skates consistently.

    Other skaters who would do better under 6.0 are Nagasu, Zhang, Nakano, and Joubert. Skaters who would do worse would also include Lepisto (lack of harder triple jumps).

    Despite the fact that Matt Savoie is reputed to have "CoP programs" before CoP existed, he really didn't do better under CoP (but was undermarked under both systems, anyway).

    I'm under the thinking that if most skaters under 6.0 were forced to do CoP or vice versa, they will generally be able to adjust accordingly. Of course, it would be hard for a skater like Butyrskaya to switch over in her prime when she is in her late 20s, but she could definitely have done it if introduced at an earlier time. For other skaters, like Bonaly, the technique might be too difficult to reverse.
     
  12. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

    11,556
    1,399
    113
    Absolutely. Kulik too. Maybe not the spins so much, but his programs were always amazingly complex and he moved around so very well.
     
  13. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

    11,556
    1,399
    113
    I think Zhang's jumping issues and some of Nagasu's and Nakano's URs are so obvious that they can't even disregard under 6.0. Don't forget though that spins and spirals are worth much less under 6.0.
     
  14. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

    2,129
    90
    48
    I'm not sure about Michelle because when IJS was instituted she fell in the standings. I think Kurt actually might have done BETTER under IJS, although maybe the same.

    Anyway, as for other men I think Patrick Chan would definitely not be doing as well under 6.0. Jump kings like VDP, Joubert, Fernandez and Reynolds would be doing better (heck, VDP and Joubert did have more success under 6.0). Shawn Sawyer would not have done as well under 6.0. Viktor Petrenko would have done even better under IJS. Elvis Stojko and Philippe Candeloro would not have done as well under IJS.

    There aren't any past women who clearly jump out at me as ones who would have done better under IJS.. maybe Josee Chouinard. Miki Ando probably would have done better under 6.0, maybe Kanako Murakami too since she gets dinged for underrotations a lot.. also Caroline Zhang although I don't think she would have been a top contender under 6.0 either.

    Denney/Coughlin might do better under 6.0 because they're very consistent and clean, which 6.0 often rewarded.

    I'm too tired to think about the dancers right now..
     
  15. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

    5,575
    1,832
    113
    Actually, Joubert and van Der Perren enjoyed some early success under 6.0, but their best years and results were after the IJS came in (although both did better under the earlier version of the system than the current one). I do think they'd have both done better if 6.0 had continued. Johnny Weir, too.

    Shen and Zhao and Plushenko succeeded under both systems, though Plushenko is really more of a 6.0 skater. Carolina Kostner had some early success under 6.0 before the change over to the current system. I think Takahashi would have been fine (indeed, he was fine in winning 2002 JW); his frequent UR problems with quads wouldn't have hurt too much, and he's got great content and showmanship.

    Patrick Chan would have done far worse under 6.0, as skating skills were not as valued and clean performances were; also, he had no quad in his earlier years, which would have put him at a disadvantage. He wouldn't have been competitive until he had one, which would have meant more time before he got the sort of reputation he had even early in his career. Berezhnaya and Sikharulidze would have done better under the IJS, which plays to their strengths and would have allowed them to get away with some mistakes. It would have been like S/S with more polish and somewhat less difficult elements, I think. By the same measure, S/S probably wouldn't have succeeded to the extent that they did if they had to skate under 6.0 (though Aliona did win JW with Morozov back in the day).

    It's really hard to evaluate dance teams, because that's probably the discipline that has changed the most, and I'm not sure how well current competitors would have done with two CDs or how past ice dancers would have adjusted to the demands of the current system.
     
  16. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    13,704
    787
    113
    Ando is a 2 time World Champion already. Already a massive stretch for a skater of her caliber to begin with, and I certainly cant fathom her bettering that under any scoring system. IMO she wouldnt do as well under 6.0 since her artistic marks would be very low compared to the others at the top, and the 2nd mark was always the tiebreaker under 6.0 (well in the time she presumably would have been skating anyway), and many of her high TES come more from clever jump layout and COP whoreing than any form of vastly superior technical skating. The only year she truly displayed technical superior jumping to others with competent artistry was in 2007, and even that year she was no match for Kim or Asada when in form. After 2007 she never put on any kind of stellar jumping display that would take her to a big title under 6.0, including and especialy her 2011 Worlds victory with only 5 triples, no impressive combinations, and not even a triple flip attempt. Before 2007 she was a 5.4 or 5.5 presentation skater, as the judges scores at the 2004 Worlds and some of the cheesefests that still used 6.0 indicated. Furthermore when one breaks it down in detail it is pretty obvious she would not have won either of her World titles under 6.0 (and of course no others was she even close to winning so no point even considering another World event besides those two).

    2011 Worlds for instance, if that was under 6.0 no way she wins. She and Kim both landed 5 triples, both had mistakes but neither fell, Kim had a triple-triple and Ando didnt even attempt one, and the judges consider Kims jumps as good or better as the GOE proves, and Kim is clearly considered the more artistic and all around skater. So under 6.0 it would be a blowout win for Kim, but under COP Ando won. Under 6.0 Kims short program miscue meanwhile would have probably meant her being 2nd in the short to Ando, as opposed to still 1st as she was under COP, but wouldnt have mattered in the end.

    2007 Worlds Ando won despite winning neither program. Under 6.0 it is highly unlikely she would have won this way. The same programs skated under COP Ando would have been placed 3rd in the short behind Kim and Kostner at best. Asada with singling the second jump of her combo, which actually wasnt as grave a mistake in the SP by the 95-2004 period of 6.0 would have been held up to 4th over Meissner I expect (especialy as Meissner wouldnt have won the 06 Worlds under 6.0), and maybe even been placed 3rd over Ando. Asada easily beat Ando in the LP and would have under 6.0 too, while Kim would have been 3rd at best in the long with her skate under either 6.0 or COP. So Asada wins.

    Lastly name a single competition Ando would have likely placed higher under 6.0 than she did under COP, or won under 6.0 that she didnt win under COP.



    As for Flatt the only times she was landing triple-triples and eligible for Senior Worlds in 09-2010 was when many women who were better than her were also doing them, and most of them more consistently and better ones ones than her- Kim, Asada, Ando, Rochette (well 3-3 sequences, but close enough comparing the quality of their skating). 5th placeish was always about the best she was ever going to get under either system. Frankly I doubt she would have even got that high since boring skating that does not excite or move people in anyway was far less rewarded under 6.0, and a couple years of her doing triple-triples would not have cemented her as some fab technical skater in the judges eyes, when many women were doing 3-3s by then. Anyway her only cleanish skate ever in a big event was the 2010 Olympics, and the level of skating at that event she wouldnt have been close to a medal period under any system.

    More likely Flatt would have lost to Wagner and Zhang under COP at both the 2008 and 2009 Nationals, lost to Nagasu (and maybe even Wagner too) at the 2010 Nationals, never won Nationals, and made less trips to Worlds than she did.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2013
  17. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

    11,556
    1,399
    113
    Which is why gkelly said if the system was introduced 10 to 15 years earlier - i.e. in the early to mid 90s. Kwan was fresh as grass then.
     
  18. Jaana

    Jaana Well-Known Member

    3,884
    168
    63
    I think that the skaters of today would have been great in 6.0, but the former skaters would not have been that great in CoP. Plushenko and Joubert are good examples of 6.0 skaters who apparently are not able to have transitions before their jumps (at least they are not havingt hem.....).
     
  19. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

    5,575
    1,832
    113
    You are aware, of course, that there is more to the IJS than transitions? Because sometimes I think people forget that it's one component out of five, not the most important thing in skating.

    Plushenko's record under the IJS includes an OGM, an Olympic silver, and three Euros titles; he had to WD with injury from his only Worlds under the current system. Joubert's IJS record includes a World title, four other medals, seven of his ten Euro medals and a GPF title. This compares favorably, I'd say, to most of the guys considered IJS-friendly skaters. As I noted, it's not just about having the most transitions.
     
  20. Jaana

    Jaana Well-Known Member

    3,884
    168
    63
    I especially mentioned transitions as the lack of them is most obvious in the skating of Plushenko and Joubert. Plushenko┬┤s choreograhy has been very lacking, too. But because of their reputation both Joubert and Plushenko are getting high PCS scores anyway... Of course some of them they deserve, but not all, in my opinion.
     
  21. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

    2,118
    200
    63
    Many Fs fans like Plushy's programs. And Zeemgirl is right, the TR is one component of PCS. Plushy's skating skills marks are high, his interpretation and performance are always among the bests, if not the best.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2013
  22. karlon

    karlon New Member

    163
    12
    0
    what about Yuna..? I think she can dominate under 6.0 system, like she did in COP, with her consistency, consistent 3-3, her jump's high quality
     
  23. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

    11,556
    1,399
    113
    Sure, but without transitions, there sometimes cannot be a lot of meaningful or complex choreography, there is less to show for performance and execution, there is less to show for skating skills (less changes in direction or skating on one foot), and interpretation easily becomes one dimension (instead of with full body and with blades).

    It's all somewhat inter-related.
     
  24. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

    10,805
    2,394
    113
    I think it's important to note that some skaters under 6.0 were able to win even when they did not skate clean or even when someone else did harder jump content. Sometimes it was because the quality of the jumps they did complete was superior. But usually, they (also?) had superior skating skills and/or superior technical content and choreography between the jumps.

    Kurt Browning, 1991-94, comes to mind as a good example.

    So I think at least some judges were always rewarding some of the things that were invisible to casual observers, because they weren't explicit in the rules and commentators rarely mentioned them nearly as often as they talked about the jumps. Which led to occasional wuzrobbing when the skater who won the jump contest didn't win the event.

    Now these qualities are explicitly written into the rules, which I think is great for the sport. There just needs to be continual improvement on the balance of what skills should be rewarded most highly and how good a job the judges are doing at rewarding them appropriately.
     
    alilou and (deleted member) like this.
  25. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

    5,575
    1,832
    113
    That's not really what the ISU guidelines say.

    As a skating fan for whom transitions are way down the list of things to care about in a program/performance, I find it really annoying that so many fans fixate on TR as though this one component is important above and beyond all other aspects of a performance. For me it's the least interesting component - if transitions serve the program concept, the interpretation and the choreography, great; otherwise I can't say I really care. And I don't like seeing skaters dismissed as inferior based on a single criterion, whether it's the perception that they have inferior jumps, spins, or their supposed lack of difficult transitions.

    Also, I don't believe that Joubert and Plushenko have enjoyed reputation scoring to a greater extent than, say, Chan and Lysacek. If the former are overscored on TR, I'd argue that the latter are/have been overscored in other areas.

    I think gkelly is right that writing things into the rules is a good idea, but I'm not sure it's possible to turn skating judging into a fully objective exercise, nor do I feel that it should necessarily be a goal. Sometimes skating is more than the some of its parts, and rewarding that isn't really possible anymore, and that's one thing about 6.0 that I do miss; I think it's part of what made the very best 6.0 performances special. Maybe they could find a way to include it under P&E?
     
  26. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

    2,118
    200
    63
    Skating skills: balance, flow, sureness, speed, direction.. Nothing to do with the TR to.

    You are right again, Zemgirl :respec:
     
  27. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

    10,805
    2,394
    113
    What if the first component listed were called something like Overall Impression?

    It could include all or most of the criteria currently listed under Performance/Execution. Any that should be taken out completely or moved to a different component?

    It could also include criteria such as "Success of the technical elements" or "General impression of mastery" or something like "Unity and wholeness" (moved from the Choreography component).


    I also wouldn't mind if Overall Impression and Skating Skills had larger factors than Transitions, Choreography, and Interpretation.


    Another question I have about overlap between components:

    Where should the (successful) use of counterrotated turns be taken into account?

    It's impossible to earn higher than level 2 in a step sequence without including at least a couple of brackets, counters, rockers, and/or choctaws, so using more in the step sequence would be rewarded there.

    Using these turns outside the step sequence or choreo sequence, either as entries or exits from jumps and spins or as edgework between elements or as means of turning between forward and backward stroking should be considered under Transitions as part of the difficulty and variety.

    The fact that counters, rockers, and choctaws also change between clockwise and counterclockwise curves could be considered under the multidirectional skating criterion under Skating Skills. And ability to hold the exits of these turns (and also, I would argue, exits of backward three turns) on one foot and even moreso the ability to connect several such turns and other moves (e.g., loops, edge changes) in a row on the same foot should be rewarded in the mastery of one-foot skating criterion.

    Does that seem like appropriate reward for demonstrating mastery of these advanced basic skills?
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2013
  28. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

    5,575
    1,832
    113
    Works for me, though I'd leave the elements out of it ;) I believe that the first component scored serves a sort of prime/anchor for the rest of them*, and I'd much rather the judges start with impression/P&E than skating skills, important as they are. I'd also like for there to be fewer components and especially for TR to be merged with CH, but I doubt that'll happen.

    * That could be a fun study to conduct - switch the order around and see how it affects the judging. Maybe the best way to go would be to have each judge get a different random order for each skater, to ensure that no one component is weighed too much compared to the others.
     
  29. girlscouse62

    girlscouse62 Active Member

    644
    96
    28
    I would like to suggest Virtue and Moir did really well with their CD's. In their early years in Seniors they certainly got better marks than a lot of more seasoned skaters who had skated under 6.0
     
  30. shady82

    shady82 Active Member

    473
    31
    28
    Ando under 6.0 was not at her peak, her peak year was 2007. If Ando skated like she did in 2007 under the 6.0 system, she would have won gold in 2000 and 2001. Ando skated at Worlds in 2004 with fairly mediocre presentation (many people liked her SP, but I don't think it compares to Scheherezade which was a great SP for her) but still got ok presentation marks. Not as high as Kwan, Arakawa, or Cohen's, but enough to keep her in medal contention. Imagine if she skated in 2004 with her 2007 programs and improvements. She would be 2nd in both the short and long, given her difficult combinations, improved presentation, and clean skates.

    Also keep in mind that Ando would have won 2007 Worlds if the competition was done under 6.0 (but of course not 2011).

    In Flatt's case, one example where she is at a disadvantage under CoP is that she gets lower TES than Nagasu at the Vancouver SP even though she did a 3-3 (but somehow Flatt gets higher PCS than Nagasu across all categories :confused:). Nagasu's high GOEs for spins and spirals put her ahead of Flatt, but this probably wouldn't happen under 6.0. They'd probably be close in marks under 6.0 but Nagasu would have higher presentation marks and vice versa.

    I disagree that boring 'Flatt' skating is punished under 6.0. Remember Volchkova?

    Zhang, Nagasu, and Nakano's jumping issues would be punished under 6.0, but not under the same extent as CoP. Remember Caroline getting 7th at the 2009 Skate Canada SP for a clean skate other than URs? :lol: She landed a triple-triple (albeit URed), and although she would get punished under 6.0, it won't be enough to place her 7th with a difficult triple-triple. That's why Sarah Hughes was a medal contender under 6.0, but wouldn't be in CoP.