Skaters retiring due to impression that judges have "dropped" them?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Seerek, Jun 8, 2011.

  1. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Wylie, Galindo, and Shizuka were always huge threats if they put it together. They just had awful consistency problems. The judges didnt dump them, Wylie was held up to even make it out of the U.S often including for the 92 Oympics, so they were clearly waiting on him after all those years. And Ando mainly capatilized on the worst year of ladies skating in decades.
     
  2. luenatic

    luenatic Well-Known Member

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    Obvious? What was obvious? The lack of SBS triple jumps?
     
  3. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

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    I'm not saying they didn't deserve to be dumped, maybe they did, but regardless, they were dumped and it was obvious that they were dumped.
     
  4. snoopysnake

    snoopysnake Well-Known Member

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    That was Eltsova and Bushkov.

    Bourne and Kraatz seemed to fall out of favor with the judges after a seemingly meteoric rise up the ice dance ladder of their time. They finally did win Worlds, but they might have not broken up so soon thereafter if they'd not had so many frustrations competitively.
     
  5. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, it seemed they were totally dumped for Anissina and Peizerat, Fusar-Poli and Margaglio, and Lobacheva and Averbukh (although they did win Worlds over L & A once). Although I think they deserved to lose to A & P often, I think in general they DIDN'T deserve to lose to the other two teams I mentioned.
     
  6. pollyanna

    pollyanna playing the Glad Game

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    I always wondered what happened with Sophie Moniotte & Pascal Lavanchy. They won World silver and bronze, and then nuttin'.
     
  7. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I think Moniotte & Lavanchy lost their position in the World when they missed a full season with injury. Younger teams like Krylova & Ovsiannikov, Bourne & Kraatz, and Anissina & Peizerat improved alot from 95 to 97 and Krylova & Ovsiannikov especialy were already a far better than Moniotte & Lavanchy by the time they returned. These teams always had more long range potential in the first place, the main reason M&L were ahead of them for a bit is they were newer and still developing. Moniotte & Lavanchy were a very good team and I always enjoyed them, but they were the kind of team that was probably destined to have their best success in the post Olympic period anyway. Many of the usually second tier skaters have their greatest success after alot of the top people retire after the Olympics and before the next generation of top skaters mature enough to reach the top.

    The only time I thought M&L were majorly dumped was in 98 when the French were putting all their support behind Anissina & Peizerat, but they were injured most of that season too and very rusty for Europeans and the Olympics.
     
  8. shady82

    shady82 Active Member

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    Chait/Sakhnovsky were very obviously dumped. In the 2002/2003 season they were dropped quite a ways behind several teams, even though I thought their long program was very strong. They probably should have fallen behind Denkova/Staviski, but behind Navka/Kostomarov and the Ukranians I'm not so sure. They got further dumped in the 2003/2004 season. In the Olympic season, they were getting fairly decent marks until the Olympics/Worlds, where their marks were approaching the level of Domnina/Shabalin's.

    Dumping seems to be more of an ice dancing phenomenon. Other teams I saw dumped were Nowak/Kolasinski and Gudina/Beletski. Scott/Dulebohn were also visibly dumped post-2002, but their skills had gotten worse so I wasn't surprised.
     
  9. DBZ

    DBZ Well-Known Member

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    Yoshie Onda comes to my mind.

    I remember she performed two clean skates at Japanese Nationals one year and was still placed behind skaters who had made mistakes, leaving her off the world team.

    I think she announced her retirement not long after, and I wouldn't be surprised if that had contributed to her decision to do so. It must be incredibly frustrating and demoralizing to feel your best isn't good enough no matter what.
     
  10. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    I don't think skaters get dumped but agree with the comments that there are younger competitors who end up overtaking them. Or they have given the judges reason to place them lower.

    Moniotte and Lavanchy were just not the same after the injury and their Riverdance FD in 98 really was not a very good FD. Pretty much everyone else in the top 10 at the Olympics that year were so much better (except for the Ukraines were very questionable).

    I also don't think B&K had anything to complain about. Their OD at 98 Olympics was lazy and sloppy and just trying to be crowd pleasing. And even though I really liked their Riverdance FD, it just wasn't performed very well (they were much better at the following Worlds). Then they had injuries which really took them out of the running. But they did persist. As much as I didn't really think much of their FD when they won Worlds, they really skated it very well and I could see why it won.
     
  11. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    If you're talking about the 2006 Japanese Nationals, then I have to say that Yoshie Onda gave my personal favorite LP performance at that championship and it was one of the best performances that whole season, to be perfectly honest. Yeah, it probably wasn't COP-friendly and her skating was inferior to that of the top contenders, but man did she win me over by the end of her career. I remember starting to enjoy her skating when she moved to Audrey Weisiger in the 2004-2005 season and had that awesome SP.
     
  12. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

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    I tend to agree. But I'd agrue that in this case, it's almost cyclical. They felt they weren't getting the respect they felt they deserved from the judges. So consequently (post-Nagano), they didn't seem to work as hard to improve. Other teams did. Then they lost a season (the 1999/2000 season) - which saw the rise of Fusar-poli/Margaglio and Lobacheva/Averbuch (and Drobiazko/Vanagas, but really, that was a fluke medal and they deserved so much more). I'm glad they won worlds when they did (cause really, Lobacheva/Averbukh having two titles is one too many)
     
  13. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    These days I don't think it is in anybody's interest to push retirement at the international level, but I guess it might be at the national level when your country only has one spot for Worlds.

    This is so true.

    Do you think Lobacheva and Averbukh's Bird Is the Word dance was underappreciated?
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2011
  14. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

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    I thought Bourne and Kraatz did improve but didn't really get any credit for it. IMO, the programs they skated at the 2002 Olympics (the tango/flamenco OD and the Michael Jackson FD) were the best programs they'd ever done, far superior to those of 1998.
     
  15. Pratfall

    Pratfall Active Member

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    And of course , the reverse question begs to be asked..Were the "dropped" skaters previously advanced a bit prematurely because of hype or on the strength of promise ?
     
  16. Carmen Ovsiannikov

    Carmen Ovsiannikov Well-Known Member

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    For the most part I agree that B&K shouldn't have finished behind F/P&M and especially L&A all that often. But in a couple of cases both teams fairly (IMO) finished ahead of B&K. For F/P&M they really :kickass: in the 99/00 and 00/01 seasons. In the 99/00 season B&K had horrible programs and Shae-Lynn was injured. I remember some fans and the NA commentators blaming the rise of D&V, L&A and F/P&M on B&K being punished for their comments on block judging the previous season. For me it was clear that B&K were not at their best and I'm not sure who signed off on those programs. I'd place the Harry Connick piece and the "Latin" OD in the same category as the "Greased Lightning" OD from 1998. IMO B&K were lucky they didn't place lower than they did during the GP.

    I do think F/P&M should have dropped back in the pack for the 01/02 season while D&V should have moved forward. Even without Maurizio's fall in SLC F/P&M didn't deserve the bronze. I feel it should have gone to D&V.

    Looking back I was a glad as a fan of L&A that they won the bronze in 2001 but in retrospect B&K could/should easily have taken that spot. It was in the 01/02 season where I felt that L&A's programs were superior (dubious subject matter in the FD notwithstanding). I think L&A's Olympic silver and World gold were deserved.

    I do think skaters get "dumped" and at times it is because those skaters have peaked or even fallen behind while younger teams have improved and at times (IMO) it's because those skaters might still be competitive but other teams get more of a push behind them from coaches and federations.

    I don't think the judges dumping certain skaters neccesarily has anything to do with the judges encouraging a team to go away. Rather those "dumped" skaters end up retiring because they feel they will no longer be allowed to compete on an even field. We can only speculate as to whether or not that would have held true or not.

    Pratfall, you raise a valid point about some teams being given a push by the hype and excitement surrounding them when they first enter the senior division.
     
  17. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I dont think there are many major events that Bourne & Kraatz deserved more than the bronze, and IMO there are quite a few there were other possible teams who also deserved the bronze so I dont think overall they were really underrated.

    1996-1998: Gritschuk & Platov and Krylova & Ovsiannikov were both clearly better teams during this period. Anissina & Peizerat were quite closely matched with them as well. They still managed to win the 97 Grand Prix final in an upset over a well skating K&O as well.

    1999 Worlds: They were injured and made 2 mistakes in their free dance including a slip/semi fall near the end. They were lucky to win the bronze over Lobacheva & Averbuhk who skated all phases of the event well and cleanly.

    2000 Grand Prix final: They were a mess this season, and they finally made their long overdue coaching stage. Their last place finish of 5 teams at the GP final behind the 3 teams we are talking of and Drobiazko & Vanagas was the correct result here.

    2001 Worlds: Anissina & Peizerat and Fusar-Poli & Margalio were clearly better at this event. Possibly they deserved to beat Lobacheva & Averbuhk for the bronze, but possibly Drobiazko & Vanagas deserved to beat both teams for the bronze. Not an obvious wuzrobbed.

    2002 Olympics: Anissina & Peizerat were again clearly superior. Lobacheva & Averbuhk were gifted majorly in the compulsories, but had a superior OD while Bourne & Kraatz fell in their FD, so no real argument for beating them either. Bourne & Kraatz probably deserved to beat Fusar-Poli & Margalio who won the bronze. However Drobiazko & Vanagas were again robbed, even moreso than the 2001 Worlds. They skated wonderfully and deserved the bronze or silver here. No way did either the Italians or Bourne & Kraatz deserve to beat them both with falls in their free dance.

    2002 Worlds: the unofficial real top 3 of Lobacheva & Averbuhk, Bourne & Kraatz, and Drobiazko & Vanagas were all a toss up for the top 3 spots here really. I actually felt D&V had the best final free dance performance to be honest. They could have been given the gold but I didnt feel they were obviously wuzrobbed with the silver either.

    2003 Worlds: this time they won in a close decision with L&A which I agreed with their win this time.

    I think overall they were rated by the judges about right. Teams like Fusar-Poli & Margalio and Lobacheva & Averbuhk were propped up at times by the judges more than B&K being held down.

    I liked Bourne & Kraatz but they were never going to be a Virtue & Moir or even Davis & White. They definitely had the basic skating and edge quality, they were creative and interesting, and worked hard to improve their whole career (other than the 99-2000 funk). However they never had the technical astonishment, polish and peerless unision, or the captivating magic to dominate and win a string of major titles. They were mostly a 3rd or 4th place kind of team and that is how they were scored.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2011
  18. arakwafan2006

    arakwafan2006 Active Member

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    Not go away and fix it?
     
  19. zotza

    zotza allergic to brainless skaters

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    I think that B/K were at that point, a victim of their own hype.
    They entered the scene with a bang and I've always felt that it was too much of a push for a team that just wasn't ready.In 1995 they seemed fresh and different from other teams, I really liked their exhibition back then,but the hype around them,imo, was more than their actually abilities.
    It's not that they didn't win medals,they were a steady bronze medalist for the next few years but it was only than predictable that they had to lose to A/P at Nagano.A/P were simply better that season, and maybe even the season before.

    I guess that they believed they deserved more and were dissapointed.Or the judges expected more from them but just didn't see them improving.Generally,when judges give a boost to a new team it's because for some reason they have high expectations.If the couple doesn't meet these expectations soon enough,they usually drop in the rankings.

    Re their programs.I always thought they were skating the same thing year after year,changing music and all.'Meet her at a love parade' was a mistake,you need to be a very gifted off the ice dancer to perform adequately something like that.And it seemed that for a while they just settled for what made them popular in Canada.But this is my personal problem with most of the Canadian skaters.Skating is loved in their country,there are very loyal fans,and sometimes they don't feel the need to get outside the cocoon.

    But anyway,B/K didn't leave even when they felt they were being dropped,and turned it around.They have really improved when it mattered.
     
  20. geoskate

    geoskate Well-Known Member

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    It possibly was a mistake, but it's also my absolute favourite among all their free dances.

    Successful dances (i.e. ones that are in line with a team's skill level, showcase those skills well and go over well with the judges) aren't necessarily the most memorable programs from a team.
     
  21. Pratfall

    Pratfall Active Member

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    My sister and I always felt that their biggest mistake with "Met her at the Love Parade" was that they didn't go all the way and dress more like La-la-la Human Steps..you know, sort of eclectic and punkish. I remember at the time, when people were talking up the new program, they mentioned the dance group as inspiration , so why those costumes ? We found it strange..and sad that they missed a chance to make a really memorable statement.

    Oddly, these many years later with C/P's Dean choreography..same thing. We thought the program would have been so much more effective in street clothes or a simplified , modern dance-like version of street clothes..In both cases the costumes struck us as strangely out of touch, and out of sync with the music and program.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2011
  22. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    Interesting world that you live in.....
     
  23. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    The real World apparently since most in this thread seem to feel the same way. :rolleyes:
     
  24. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    If you choose to read it that way, then, yes, I suppose it would say that.
     
  25. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    I disagree the costumes had anything to do with how the program was viewed. They kept the costumes simple which provided no distractions to what they were meant to do on the ice. Which is how it should be. It was not an artistic competition where costumes would matter. And in terms of judging it was the last thing the judges would have been looking at. I have found the clip on youtube.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3F3DP1u_Co

    As a program I really liked it, but you could tell that Shae-Lynn had been injured and they didn't skate it to their full potential. On rewatching the program doesn't stop moving and it has oodles of content which kind of kept in character with the music. But at times you feel they lose the connection with the music. And it looks like hard work (as you can tell by Victor's expression at the end).

    Also on reflection it almost looks like a training exercise. That is the kind of music you use in a figure session to create mood for skaters to warm up to. So I am not sure that it really worked as a program because the repetition of moves look like drills.

    Still I think they were brave to put a program like that out there and good on them for doing it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2011
  26. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I agree. Although punk/street clothes (something neon and rave-ish) would've definitely worked for "Meet Her at the Love Parade", I thought the costumes that B/K wore worked for the music and choreography.

    Anyway, "Meet Her at the Love Parade" is probably my favorite routine by B/K...by far.
     
  27. geoskate

    geoskate Well-Known Member

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    I liked this version better - earlier in the season, and I think it had more of the original choreography. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LywDzZa3Xqo

    Like Dean's program for C/P this year, this is a program that I think didn't improve over the season.
     
  28. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for posting that clip. I thought it had some better moments than the Worlds performance.
     
  29. professordeb

    professordeb Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps a better way to phrase that would be it seems to be the majority of posters in this topic feel that way. Just because some of us haven't posted that we disagree with yours (and others) belief that B&K were never more than 3rd or 4th rate skaters doesn't mean we agreed with the assessment.

    Speaking only for myself, I just couldn't be bothered to begin another round of arguments on why I would disagree with that statement. Too much argument took place back in the day and I don't want to go down that road again. Just because a number of posters here "seem" to agree with you does not translate to meaning that "most" of the people here - and in the Real World - share your opinion. That's not a presumption or assumption that I would want to make. After all, what you posted is your opinion and as one poster said somewhere on the board - opinions are like assholes, everyone has one ;) and it would seem I don't agree with yours. :lol:
     
  30. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    Third or fourth place at the world championships is hardly "3rd or 4th rate skaters" in the grand scheme of things. I think you're arguing against a claim that judgejudy27 never made.