Skaters moving up from JGP to senior GP?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by haribobo, Feb 18, 2012.

  1. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to GP & U.S. Sectionals!

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    Refer back to last year's ISU Grand Prix selection thread:
    http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?t=79281&page=24 (starting with post #467)

    Of course we will have to wait for the 2012-13 ISU Grand Prix Announcement to be published to see if any changes have been made in the GP selection process for next season.

    ETA: The reduction of GP singles slots from 12 to 10 definitely had a negative impact on the number of GP opportunities for skaters just up from junior. Here's a list of JGP and/or Junior Worlds competitors from the 2010-11 season that were assigned to at least 1 Senior Grand Prix event this season:

    Men - Dornbush USA (2), Rogozine CAN (2), Majorov SWE (1), Ponsart FRA (1 host pick)

    Ladies - Sotnikova RUS (2), Tuktamysheva RUS (2), Gao USA (2), K. Zhang CHN (1 host pick), Silete FRA (1 host pick), Q Zhu CHN (1 host pick, was on 2009 JGP)

    Pairs - Sui/Han CHN (2; have done both JGP/GP for 2 years now), Takahashi/Tran JPN (2; GP only this season), Stolbova/Klimov RUS (both JGP/1 GP), Cain/Reagan USA (1), Yu/Jin CHN (1; also did JGP), Steele/Schultz CAN (1), Jones/Gaskell CAN (1), Purich/Schultz CAN (1), Kadlecova/Bidar CZE (both JGP/1 GP this season and last)

    Dance - Monko/Khavalin RUS (2 but WD from both), Pushkash/Guerreiro RUS (2), Lichtman/Copely USA (1), Alessandrini/Vaturi ITA (1; had 2 last season but WD from both), Hurtado/Diaz ESP (1), Zahorski/Miart FRA (1 host pick but WD)

    2011 Junior Worlds competitors that aged out of ISU Junior but were not picked for a GP this season: Messing USA (4th), Aaron USA (5th), Bush RUS (11th) in men; Cannuscio/McManus USA (7th) in dance.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2012
  2. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    I thought Bush had to withdraw. I'm glad to hear he's skating.
     
  3. love_skate2011

    love_skate2011 Well-Known Member

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    ^

    where did you hear that ? if its true hope they replace him with Kovtun.

    Bush competed in B Competitions as a senior this season
    but not counted as any of those for a SB ?
     
  4. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    I'm confusing Bush with someone else. Bush is fine.

    This year, the Season's Best list consists only of Junior and Senior Grand Prix's, including Finals, Championships, and Youth Olympic Games. When a Senior B serves as an Olympic qualifier, then that score can count, as well as the Olympics in Olympic seasons

    This year, a skater/team could meet the GP minimum in one of the listed fall Senior B's in the GP announcement. All Senior B's on the International Competition list put out each year by the ISU for count for earning minimum TES scores for championships, which are a much lower bar than minimum GP scores.
     
  5. Nomad

    Nomad Well-Known Member

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  6. love_skate2011

    love_skate2011 Well-Known Member

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    Miner yes he has been a bit consistent now but still he is still forgettable,
    I made the comparison to Farris, sure he has good donut spin, beillman, balletic feminine style skating, jumps but his overall skating isn't that memorable enough, we have plenty of that from Dornbush, Rippon and even Miner. whos to say Borwn wont get his 3A. It will take time but if gets them all together, no doubt Brown has a brighter future ahead than Farris, imho
     
  7. DORISPULASKI

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

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    One thing Brown isn't, is forgettable.

    Learning to be not forgettable is harder than learning a triple axel, if it isn't born in you. There are very, very few skaters who have learned to be memorable, IMO.

    Brian Boitano comes to mind as a skater who learned to be unforgettable, having previously been forgettable except for his death drop and 3A. Right this minute I'm drawing a blank as to others. Clearly they were forgettable, because I've forgotten them :lol:

    And it is possible to be athletically or artistically or personally or musically memorable. There isn't just one type of memorable.

    Tonya Harding and Gracie Gold both fall in that athletically memorable bucket for me ("that's the most amazing jump I've ever seen" type memorable). It is possible to be crowd pleasingly memorable (Chris Bowman & Ryan Bradley). It is possible to be "that's just so cool" memorable (Jason Brown and Keegan Messing, in different ways, by doing movements and stuff that is different and pleasingly memorable). It's possible to become so much a part of the music that when the music plays, I see a skater skating to it-usually ice dancers ;) )


    YMMV, but I find Ricky Dornbush, Max Aaron, & Joshua Farris (well except when he was skating on a broken bone, and that's a terrible way to be memorable) all forgettable so far.
     
  8. Jammers

    Jammers Well-Known Member

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    Miner reminds me a bit of a male Rachael Flatt. Consistent but forgettable and will probably never make a World Podium.
     
  9. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to GP & U.S. Sectionals!

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    Way to rile up pinky166 some more, guys! :lol: Isn't "forgettable" in the eye of the beholder, like beauty? ;)

    ETA:
    Interesting post, Doris! Worth starting a new thread to discuss further?
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2012
  10. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Brown definitely has something special, but idk, I personally think Farris does as well. I agree that Ross is a little boring, but he's still managing to get the job done and his consistency and the medals he's won this season will only help his internationals scores increase, regardless of if he stays boring or becomes more interesting.

    I mean, Lysacek IMHO is a bit boring, and was definitely quite boring earlier on in his career, but he won OGM. I think Dornbush has his own unique style that really comes out when he is skating well, which explains why he scores so well when he delivers. He is very theatrical and gets into character well, he is struggling now but he can bounce back and when he does I expect him to do well on the international stage. Rippon has a lovely lyrical style and if he was stronger in the jumps department he could be a World beater I bet. The only thing holding him back is his jumping ability which isn't so strong. He's like Johnny Weir. Which again brings me to Brown, who yes is fab and has a great style, but for the men, not being able to jump well/consistently hurts more than being a little boring in style, so the no 3a yet really worries me. I mean, look at Euros, Plushenko has pizazz but his skating is so.robotic, and Gatchinski is just like his 17 year old clone. Joubert managed to win a World title and all those European medals with his meat and potatoes skating. So therefore...being boring isn't as big of a setback as it might seem.

    Johnny Weir is a big fan of Farris, and he usually doesn't like the boring skaters so much. All the commentators at nationals talked about how talented he is, and he really is, both in terms of jumping, spinning, and emoting. He's maybe a little bland now but he just turned 17 and if you look at his artistic progression since leaving Tom Z. just last year, it's really impressive. Plus I admire his resilience. That kid is made of tough stuff. Idk. I like his style and think he could go far. He reminds me a bit of a young Savoie. I really hope he can medal at JW next week.
     
  11. toddlj

    toddlj Livestreams at 1am on Thanksgiving weekend? OK!

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    Wow I hate comments like this one. Must everything be in some gender box like only females can do one kind of thing and only males can do another? Annoying.
     
  12. Cheylana

    Cheylana Well-Known Member

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    Totally agree.

    I would say Angela Nikodinov; she always had the potential to be memorable but she still needed the right coach to make it happen.
     
  13. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Truth. I don't think skaters like Adam or Josh are feminine at all. Since when does being flexible and elegant make one "feminine"? Come on...


    Also the point I was trying to make was that in figure skating, a lot of "forgettable"/boring skaters can still win big titles. For as good as Jason Brown is, if he doesn't get a 3a and soon, chances are the "forgettable" skaters like Miner, Dornbush, and Farris will be beating him in competition. I know he was able to win the JGPF, but he did so by a small margin and was only able to at all because he skated 2 clean programs while both Yan and Farris had some major boo-boos. Also the international judges don't give him nearly the PCS the US judges do, and give Farris PCS just as high soo yeah. I think if he gets a 3a soon though then the international judges might bump up his PCS significantly, but I think they are holding off until the 3a materializes in competition. I mean Max Aaron beat Jason at JW last year and he's a quintessential jumps focused Tom Zzzz skater.
     
  14. winterone

    winterone Banned Member

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    Tim Dolensky Are you serious. GP ??
     
  15. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Let's see how he does at JW first. Maybe he'll be the highest ranked American man there, you never know. Like I said Aaron beat Brown at JW last year, ice is slippery. Has Dolensky ever tried 3a in competition?
     
  16. DORISPULASKI

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

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    I agree about Angela Nikidinov being a skater that learned to be memorable. Definitely :kickass:

    OTOH, I disagree about Ross and Rachael-both are interesting skaters who sometimes crossover into the memorable and sometimes are amazinly forgettable. In their most memorable moments, both are better live than on TV. I say this having been surprised by both of them in live competition last year at Nationals: Rachael's short was a standout, but her LP was a snooze. Ross was the reverse-his short was just OK, but his LP was great, with an extremely enthusiastic standing ovation by the crowd. This year they reversed-it was Rachael's long that led to a standing ovation at Nationals, and Ross's short at 4CC's.

    Dornbush I found to be a snooze in both his programs last year at Nationals. But it's clear that some others did not find it that way.

    I don't find Farris interesting on streaming video, but I've never seen him live when he was healthy, so I'm reserving judgment.
     
  17. winterone

    winterone Banned Member

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    Max beat Jason at JW because he is far more athletic and he landed his jumps. By the way Max beat Jason at nationals this year as well. Jason Brown does not have a 3x yet. But Jason does have the support of USFSA. After making three mistakes in the last half of his long program at nationals he still got a 75 in Program Component scores.

    Honestly why are we sending Dolensky?
     
  18. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to GP & U.S. Sectionals!

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    I can't recall if he tried a 3A in the 2011 Broadmoor Open Jumps competition back in June, but he has not attempted 3A in his competition programs this season, AFAIK, though he has worked on the jump.

    Because he earned it at Nationals and won a JGP bronze this season.
     
  19. DORISPULASKI

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

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    And because Nathan Chen is still too young to go to Jr. Worlds, AFAIR? And because the boys at Senior Nationals were too old, with the exception of Jason & Joshua. Timothy had the highest finish of a junior eligible boy at Nationals.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2012
  20. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to GP & U.S. Sectionals!

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    Yes, Nathan Chen will turn 13 in May and be ISU Junior age-eligible next season.
     
  21. dinakt

    dinakt Well-Known Member

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    I don't find Farris forgettable at all- nor feminine :D His SP this year, when skated well ( like his GP events and GPF, not the Nationals) is one of my very favorite programs of the year.
    He has yet to have a LP that I loved, but that's less to do with him than with his packaging and choreographers. I think he has great potential to express, he's just not fully tapped into it yet ( I like his new Rachmaninov LP, but it's just too new to feel completely realized).
    For example, here- 2009 JGP SP http://youtu.be/4bN3FxKlcnY - while he is skating to typical "Sing Sing Sing" ( oh, Tom Z., must everybody?)- he shows excellent feeling of rhythmic synchopation- and what was he then- 14 going on 15, I think. Between this and "Clair de Lune"- that's two distinctly different styles where he is paying a lot of attention to music. I hope it develops in the years to come! Add great spins, variety of jumps, good SS- and I like the package.
    Not everybody ( hardly anybody) could be Jason Brown, when already at 15 he had performance magic. Most people come into it much later, even the ones who have it in them.

    Back on topic- I'll keep my fingers crossed that Junior Worlds scores are really HIGH.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2012
  22. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Dolensky is going because of all the senior men at Nationals, only Jason and Josh are young enough to go and are already being sent. Chen is too young to go, so Dolensky is next in line. In my opinion though, Warren should have beaten him at nationals, I think he is the stronger skater. He and Dolensky got nearly identical FS scores at nationals but to me Warren's skate was great while Dolensky's was tentative. But Warren did have a mistake in the SP, so I guess the results are alright. Plus Warren did not fair as well as Dolensky on the JGP this season.

    Also regarding Jason, I think I had mentioned this earlier, but all season on the JGP, he and Josh have been receiving very similar PCS. Then at nationals, well I'll disregard the SP because Josh's was messy and Jason went clean, but in the FS where they each made a similar number of errors, Jason's PCS were 75 and Josh's 65. At the JGPF they both got 69, and that was with a clean skate from Jason and a flawed one from Josh. USFS loves Jason, clearly, but I think the international judges are holding out handing him huge components until he starts trying the 3a in competition. Meanwhile, it's pretty obvious Farris is received well internationally considering his monster SP scores put up at his JGPs this season.

    Regarding Aaron, his programs at Nationals were very strong technically, and yet his scores in both the SP and FS were quite near those of Jason's, who had no 3a in the SP (while Max had a 4s!) and no 3a and 3 falls in the FS (while Max was cleaner and attempted a quad and two 3as). So it's just different internationally. If Jason beats Josh at JW, I am fairly certain it will be because Josh will have made a bunch of silly mistakes. If Josh skates well, I am fairly certain he will place ahead of Jason.