Skater's Legacy

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Vash01, Aug 21, 2011.

  1. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

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    Legacy (dictionary meaning): anything handed down from the past, as from an ancestor or predecessor: the legacy of ancient Rome.

    Legacy may be a lot more than this, but for a skater I think a legacy could mean how he/she contributed to the sport and left something behind for the next generation(s) of skaters.

    With that definition, here is how I see the legacies of some skaters:

    Ladies:

    Midori Ito- Triple axel, 3-3 combinations, the power of her jumps and her personality on the ice

    Elaine Zayak- multiple triples in a program, leading to the Zayak rule

    Irina Slutskaya- her 3-3 combinations, but to me her legacy is bouncing back from a serious heart condition to win a world championship in 2005.

    Michelle Kwan- 5 world titles and 9 US national championships; she will be known as one of the toughest competitors ever.

    Sasha Cohen- She took the spins and the spiral sequence to whole another level. Many skaters today do the I-spin.

    Denise Biellman- Need I say it?:lol:

    Surya Bonaly- Back flip

    Lucinda Ruh- Her spins

    Katarina Witt- Carmen and her ability to play characters on the ice

    Kristi Yamaguchi- Her consistent jumps, particularly 3LZ-3t combination

    Tara Lipinski- Her 3loop-3loop and as the youngest skater ever to win the OGM

    Yu na Kim- Her OGM- the first ever by a Korean, and her skating

    Oksana Baiul- Her artistry, particularly in the early years (the Swan, Meditation, Ave Maria, etc.)

    Shizuka Arakawa- Her OGM at age 24 gave hope to late bloomers :)

    Joanie Rochette- Overcoming personal tragedy

    Mao Asada- Three triple axels by a lady in the Olympics


    Men:

    Brian Boitano- 'Tano Lutz and a whole lot more (jump consistency even as a pro among them)

    Brian Orser- Two triple axels in a long program

    John Curry- His beautiful lines and posture

    Kulik- Awesome jumps and his 1998 LP costume:lol:

    Yagudin- Athleticism & Passion

    Plushenko- Very consistent quad combinations

    Elvis Stojko- The quad. His ability to land it consistently in competitions pushed other skaters to do it and more (like Yagudin & Plushenko)

    Lambiel- Spins (many skaters today are imitating his spins, with less success)

    Kurt Browning- His artistry, and his Casablanca program

    Petrenko- He made the 3axel-3toe combination a must for men (before Elvis pushed them to do the quad)


    Ice dance:

    Torville & Dean: One word- Bolero (and their creativity)

    Klimova-Ponomarenko: Their technical perfection and passion on ice

    Anissina-Peizerat: Lady lifting the man

    Grishchuk- Platov: Incredible speed, and her twizzles

    Pakhamova-Gorshkov: First OGM in ice dance


    Pairs:

    Mishkutenok-Dmitriev: Passion (particularly Artur) and using her flexibility to create beautiful artistry on ice

    The Protopopovs- Their balletic grace changed pairs skating

    Shen & Zhao (actually this one goes more to their coach Yao Ming): High throws and split triple twists. It impacted skaters from other countries to try to do the same.

    Gordeeva-Grinkov: Perfection

    Irina Rodnina- her 3 OGMs
    Sonia Henie- her 3 OGMs, and also the way she impacted the skating costumes (she shortened the skirts)

    Berezhnaya-Sikharulidze: Sadly, they will always be known in N.America as the pair involved in the judging controversy/scandal. B&S fans in the rest of the world though will remember their beautiful skating. I think on a positive note, their legacy is their Chaplin prograams. They will always be remembered for those, even in NA.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2011
  2. miki88

    miki88 New Member

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    I think Michelle's legacy is much more than her medals. And I don't like how the legacy of some skaters are reduced to one or two elements.
     
  3. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

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    Can you be more specific, and add your own ideas to what you consider their legacies? After all, this thread is meant to only Start a discussion. It's not like a finished, published article.
     
  4. Moka-Ananas

    Moka-Ananas Man's Ruin

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    I'd add "1st man ever to perform a Biellmann spin", "4-3-3" and "3ax-half loop-3flip" to Plushenko and brilliant footwork to Yags.
     
  5. attyfan

    attyfan Well-Known Member

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    ITA. I think that Michelle (and Kurt Browning) left critical legacies in teaching others that success is not limited to the OGM. Michelle's legacy also includes the importance of sportsmanship as well as joining Debi Thomas in leaving a legacy about transitioning out of a skating career into something else.
     
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  6. miki88

    miki88 New Member

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    Ok. For starters, I think Michelle should be credited as a skater who pushed the artistic aspects of skating to a higher level. Yamaguchi's legacy lies more in her contribution to professional skating. I also think there's more to Orser's and Asada's skating than the axels.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2011
  7. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

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    I agree about Kristi's legacy being more in the pro skating. In the eligible ranks I did not feel she really left that much for the future generation. Her 3Z-3t was mainly to keep up with Midori technically. Professionally Kristi was brilliant, landing difficult jumps consistently for years, and developing her artistry in many different ways.
     
  8. Habs

    Habs Well-Known Member

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    For Kurt Browning, I would add the quad as well as making triple-triple combinations a standard in men's skating. His LP in Munich in 1991 set the bar.
    Kurt was known as a technician early in his career, much more than he was regarded as an artist - that came later.
     
  9. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

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    Although Kurt is credited for the 1st quad in competition (worlds 88), it was not his trademark jump the way it was with Elvis. He landed (2-footed) it at next year's worlds but after that never attempted it, IIRC. Elvis landed the quad consistenly and even landed quad combinations consistently. IMO the quad was Elvis's legacy.
     
  10. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Kristi Yamaguchi- for being the most complete skater of her era, and for taking womens professional skating to a new level after her major amateur titles.

    Midori Ito- for taking womens jumping and athleticsm to heights it has in many ways still not reached 2-3 decades later. For being the first Champion skater from Japan.

    Irina Slutskaya- for being the first dominant champion in the ladies event from Russia (even though Maria won Worlds first). For being the best womens jumper of her era. For amazing longevity where she even outlasted Kwan who herself has great longevity and is 2 years younger, and fighting back from a career threatening illness to become a champion skater again.

    Michelle Kwan- for being the name all modern skating fans most associate with the sport, especialy ladies singles skating. For being the most dominant skater at U.S Nationals in history.

    Elaine Zayak- the women who first made the push for other women to have to include alot of triples in their program to be competitive. For overcoming a horrible lawn mowing accident to become a champion, and for her ability to keep fighting through adversity and coming back, including her inspiring 94 comeback.

    Tara Lipinski- for being one of the most consistent 7 triple jumpers and 3-3 jumpers ever. For an amazing ability to do almost any kind of combination jump. For being a true prodigy who was the youngest ever to do almost everything. For her famous albeit brief rivalry with Kwan which a huge selling point to skating popularity, especialy in the U.S.

    Sasha Cohen- for flexability, and amazingly bendy and stunning to watch spins and spirals. For her long pursuit of major titles which always just eluded her. For her rivalry with Kwan.

    Yuka Sato and Shizuka Arakawa- skaters skaters, skaters who could do a bit of everything on the ice, continuing on the tradition of great Japanese skaters started by Ito. Both excellent pro skaters.

    Yu Na Kim- for being a groundbreaker for Korea, for being one of the best, if not the best, triple-triple jumper ever seeen.

    Mao Asada- for being another true prodigy who could have won the Olympic Gold at 16 had she been allowed to compete, and who had achieved so much at a young age. For her rivalry with Yu Na Kim. For pushing the envelope technically again with the triple axels, a jump that had rarely been seen for decades.

    Oksana Baiul- another true prodigy who literally went from a total unknown to a World and Olympic Champion overnight, something even Lipinski who was a much hyped and successful junior as early as 1995 did not do. She failed to qualify for the World Juniors and medal in her minor internationals in the fall of the season she would win silver at Europeans and gold at Worlds. For her wonderful artistry and maturity on ice at such a young age. For her rivalry with Kerrigan, which gained extra attention due to the attention on Kerrigan at the time.


    Men:

    Yagudin- everything skating should be. The modern day GOAT. For the soul and the amazing intensity of his performances, combined with enormous 3 axels and quad jumps.

    Plushenko- for being another true prodigy who was already a contender to win Worlds at 15 and 16. For his amazingly strong and consistent jumps, for his fast feet and energy in his youth. For his longevity in the sport and winning gold or silver at 3 straight Olympics. For his rivalry with Yagudin.

    Stojko- for pushing the technical envelope of mens skating by continuing to push the quad forward with more difficult combinations, and more regular attempts and completions of the jump. For always being true to himself despite the critics. For being one of the grittiest and toughest competitors ever, winning Olympic silver on a busted groin which he could barely walk on.

    Stephane Lambiel- for his soulful and wonderfully interpretive skating, and for his amazing spinning ability.

    Brian Boitano- for being technically a pretty much flawless skater, for winning the Battle of the Brians with a historic performance in Calgary, and for pushing mens professional skating to a whole new level.

    Brian Orser- for being one of the unluckiest skaters ever with his string of runner up finishes in major events, for being the best free skater of the 80s, for his rivalries with Hamilton and Boitano. For being the first guy with a truly strong and reliable triple axel, even landing them solidly in practice back in the 70s when journeyman Taylor Taylor had his ratty triple axel try ratified, eventually pushing others to start doing it as well. For later being a successful coach and continuing to be a popular figure in Canadian skating.

    Kurt Browning- for being the quintessential performer and entertainer on ice, kind of like the Canadian version of Scott Hamilton, but with far more jumping ability than Scott. For being the dominant skater of the first half of the 90s with 4 World titles in 5 years. For his rivalries with Petrenko and Stojko. For his failures at the Olympics, but coming out of them stronger, and becoming one of the dominant figures on the professional circuit both as a show skater and competitor.

    John Curry- for putting classical art and ballet on ice like no skater before or possibly since ever has. For being a groundbreaker for mens skaters to follow who were now freed to allow themselves to be more artistic on the ice.

    Toller Cranston- along with Curry for breaking new ground in artistry in mens skating, yet with a completely different style than Curry. For his bad luck of not winning a major title due to figures. For continuing to be a face in Canadian skating for years with commentary work, years as a top show skater, books, and other ventures.

    Robin Cousins- for an amazingly talented free skater, and still popular figure in the sport. For his amazing versatility as a performer, his huge jumps, and how he flew over the ice with ease.


    Rodnina & Zaitsev- For their amazing speed and power over the ice, probably still unmatched in pairs skating all these years later. For their technical brilliance and dynamics. As machines who never missed, and annihilated the competition not through emotion, drama, and beauty, but through sheer firepower.

    Gordeeva & Grinkov- everything pairs skating should be. Their emergence as a prototypical big guy/little girl pair who could do huge tricks, including the first ever quad twist, to eventually one of the most seamless, beautiful, and together pairs the World had ever seen. For their love story off the ice evolving, and for their comeback as an even better team to win another Oly Gold.

    Miskutienok & Dmitriev- for their Dreams of Love which still might be the best pairs program ever. For the amazing versatiilty they showed over the years, returning to do a totally different but equally effective program in their comeback in 94 to Rachmanioffs which was a program full of innovation, wild energy, and dramatic interpretation, still all done with style, great unision, and technicall excellent. For their rivalry with G&G.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2011
  11. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

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    Nice thesis, JudgeJudy!:)

    I like the way you described Michelle Kwan's legacy.

    I can't believe I forgot Toller and Robin. Both were great artists. Toller was before my time, and I only watched Robin as a pro (he was a great artist on ice).

    About R&Z's speed- I have to write that Peter Carruthers once said while commentating during a 1997 GP, when B&S were skating in their first real season together, Peter said that he thought he would never see a pair skate as fast as R&Z, but these two (B&S) do. IMO B&S had a lot more than speed, of course, but they were not technically consistent like R&Z and G&&G. Unfortunately they often get overlooked (not by me, of course) while talking about great pairs.
     
  12. museksk8r

    museksk8r Holding an edge and looking dangerously sexy

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    I'm really surprised that Chen Lu has been overlooked. She really is the one who started the great Chinese renaissance of champion figure skaters. She is China's first ever World Champion, World medalist, and Olympic medalist (consecutive bronze medals) in figure skating. What a legacy to have!
     
  13. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

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    You are right about Chen Lu. When we think of Chinese skaters, we often think of Shen & Zhao and forget about Chen Lu who was the first Chinese skater to win a world championship, IIRC. She was a lovely, lyrical skater. we have not seen anyone like her from China.
     
  14. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I still have more to add. I was just running out of time as I had other things to do. I will post some more later.

    I like watching Chen more than Shen & Zhou btw.
     
  15. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze- for her brave and amazing comeback from an abusive former partner who almost killed her in a practice accident. For their amazing lines, beauty, and elegance on the ice. For their amazing and effortless speed over the ice. Unfortunately as well for the infamous SLC event, where they were falsely potrayed by nearly all.

    Shen & Zhou- for their incredibly spectacular tricks, even with their flawed technique on some. For their incredible longevity in the sport. For being groundbreakers for Chinese pairs skating that created a tradition of top pairs from that country ever since. For evolving as artists and skaters so much more as the years went on, basically being a rare team that gradually went from the very bottom to the top.



    Lu Chen- for being the groundbreaker for all Chinese skaters as the first truly top Chinese. For her quiet elegance and simplistic beauty on the ice. For her ability to interpret various types of music so well, and as she got older to feel them with her soul like few have. For also being a very reliable competitor with consistent technique and who consistently won medals over so many years.


    Torvill & Dean- Bolero as Vash01 said, but for having so many original and groundbreaking programs in their prime from 82-84. Really being the first team to buck the rules of ice dancing with so much success, and having the excellent technical abilities to make it work.

    Klimova & Ponamarenko- For their amazing longevity which saw them as the only team to win an Olympic medal of every color. For evolving continously before our eyes throughout their career. For doing some of the most technically difficult programs ever seen. For truly being a man and women on ice, and creating magic.

    Virtue & Moir- For being the first North American team to win an Olympic Gold in ice dancing, a major breakthrough for the sport and for skaters from this part of the World.
    For being true prodigies who were noticed for their impeccable edge quality and technical skills almost from day 1.

    Anissina & Peizerat- for their wonderfully interpretive and dramatic programs on the ice. For always tackling difficult content which was balanced between both skaters doing equally as much, even if they didnt always perform it perfectly. For being the first French team to win Oly Gold after a series of excellent teams just fell short.
     
  16. shah

    shah Shhh...

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    let's go classic - Ina Bauer for her signature move, not to mention Axel Paulsen, Ulrich Salchow, Alois Lutz and Werner Rittberger for the jumps :).
     
  17. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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    I'd amend that to say "For being the most dominant skater in U.S. history." Michelle was a beast at nationals, true; but she also holds the distinction of being the most decorated figure skater in U.S. history. That is a major part of her legacy in addition to the contributions of pushing the sport artistically, her longevity, the impact she's had on those who come after her, and her amazing success outside of skating.

    Tara's legacy is she was first and foremost a competitor. Credit her with the 3lp-3lp combo and the fact that she won everything at such a young age, but I think her competitiveness was her strongest point.

    I'd scratch that whole "rivalry with Kwan" thing simply because it's so lopsided; Sasha beat Michelle twice in her career--finishing 2nd to Kwan's 3rd at worlds in 2004 and 2nd again to Kwan's 4th at worlds in 2005. I'd say Sasha's legacy has high and low points. The high being she can be credited with raising the bar in terms of spins, spirals and flexibility. Her influence is seen every time someone attempts to pull their leg over their head in an I-spin. The low point of her legacy was her inability to win major titles despite the high level of her skating and her inability to skate clean programs back to back at major events.

    Agreed, though I'd say "if not the best, most consistent triple-triple jumper ever seen." I'd also add to that that Yu-Na will be remembered for her speed and excellent technique, as well as being the record holder in terms of CoP.

    Also I think Mao will be remembered in terms of her style: the graceful, floaty, ethereal qualities she possesses that I have never seen before.
     
  18. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Cecelia Colledge- Invented the Layback Spin and Camel Spin, including the catch foot variations. Performed the first one footed Axel by anyone. Performed the first multi rotation jump (a double) by a lady.
     
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  19. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    Janet Lynn gave the joy into a program.
     
  20. ciocio

    ciocio Active Member

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    I would add Sex Bomb to Plushy's legacy!:p:D
     
  21. MikiAndoFan#1

    MikiAndoFan#1 Well-Known Member

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    :scream: :p
     
  22. ciocio

    ciocio Active Member

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    And the mullet!!!!:p:lol:
     
  23. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    LOL
    Elvis Stojko was his model !
     
  24. MikiAndoFan#1

    MikiAndoFan#1 Well-Known Member

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    :rofl:
     
  25. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

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    Michelle won 5 world titles! How many skaters have that distinction, outside of 10 each for Henie and Rodnina, and 5 for Carol Heiss? After the abolishment of compulsory figures, Michelle won the most world championships. How can you limit her success to the USA alone?
     
  26. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I guess it depends what one values. Many might argue Heiss with 5 straight Worlds titles, Olympic Gold, and Olympic silver was "most decorated U.S skater" (most decorated but not the best, most even think Albright who won less medals was a better skater) which is why I didnt go there since I knew it would spark a debate.

    Agreed.

    Definitely agreed.

    Well judging only from 2003 onwards, which is the only period they were hyped as "rivals", Michelle and Sasha met 6 times in National or ISU events and it was 4-2 Michelle so fairly close. Finishing ahead 2 of the 4 times they met at Worlds (counting 2002 as well) is pretty significant IMO. Sasha also beat Michelle a couple times in cheesefests, so beat Michelle 4 times total in competition. If Sasha had not peaked vs a much older Michelle I doubt they would have ever been rivals, but as it was they were fairly competitive IMO.

    I do think they were rivals, if for no other reason that people got excited to see them face off and wonder who was going to win in the years after SLC. Michelle's rivalry with Irina had died off since they were never healthy and competing at the top together again, so they needed something to spark interest.


    Totally agree.


    Agreed. Although I do think she is the best triple-triple jumper ever. Tara was amazing in her ability to do so many but they werent of the same quality. Midori could probably do even better ones, but she didnt do nearly as many of them since it wasnt that important then.


    I agree but she isnt really appreciated for those things as much as she should be.
     
  27. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    Great thread! :)

    Surya Bonaly - For being a rebel on the ice in pretty every respect from not wearing tights to taking off her medal at 1994 Worlds. And of course the FU backflip and landing with her back to the judges in Nagano. For not only being the first woman to do the backflip, but the only one, male or female, to land it on one foot AND sometimes to a triple sal straight out of it. For her wild and colorful costumes, interesting music choices, her fearlessness in trying all kind of different jumps and combinations, variations on spins and spirals, and coming back from an achilles tendon injury. For all the crazy stories about her mom and her being an orphan from reunion island. Plus she is a world junior champion in two sports, figure skating in 1991 and World Junior Tumbling Champion in 1986.


    Totmianina/Marinin - Truly one of the most complete and rock solid pairs of all time. Amazing jumpers. I don't remember her ever missing a throw and they landed their sbs jumps 99% of the time too - all the more impressive since they were the first pair to do two different sets of triples in an LP. In the athletic sense, IMO their Olympic programs would rank #1 of all time - they had the most difficult program jumpwise of any Olympic champions, and had high level and well performed non-jump elements (were not able to slack off on elements they didn't like due to CoP), and they did it all with the grace and basic skating skills you expect from the Russian pairs. And of course there is her amazing comeback from her head injury, and never losing a competition after that fall.

    Phillipe Candeloro - Most creative and for me the most entertaining skater of all time. He did a four-part Godfather program! He actually went to a fencer to choreograph the footwork for his D'Artagnan LP. He regularly had his music composed especially for him. He portrayed strong, historic figures like Napoleon, but he could also do silly stuff like his Spaghetti Western LP or George of the Jungle. Of course his other legacy is being a ham, going into the audience, and stripping. Definitely one of the biggest crowd pleasers in skating.

    Grishuk & Platov - The best technique, speed, and edges ever in ice dancing. Very versatile dancers who started their career doing cheesy folk dances, then moving into stuff like the 92 Robots FD, St James Infirmary blues, a couple of years of ballroom stuff, and finally a voidy period with The Feeling Begins and Memorial - they truly represented all styles of ice dance in their careers (and IMO are mischaracterized as overly theatrical by many). Pulling off one of the biggest upsets in ice dance history to defeat reigning world champs U&Z and reigning European champs/previous OGMs T&D, then going unbeaten for four seasons and never relinquishing their crown (with injuries and age working against them). And they did all that while creating the most entertaining off ice drama ever, with all of their affairs and near-splitups, her changing her name so she would not be affiliated with the creeeemeeeenal Oksana Baiul, and of course the lavender skates and Marilyn Monroe happy birthday video. :D Last but not least, for bringing us one of the greatest FSU posters, esta.

    Lobacheva/Averbukh - Being the Jesus people with their 98 FD to JCS, and always courting controversy with their costumes and music choices and the color streaks in Irina's hair.

    Elena Liashenko - For making it ok to skip the triple loop! For having amazing longevity and actually getting better with age and adapting well to CoP. For winning bronze medals at Euros 10 years apart (1995 & 2005 plus silver in 2004).

    Katarina Witt - For being a true movie star on the ice. Not only did she have one of the most successful careers medalwise, but she brought ladies' skating into the 21st century. She could be a bombshell but she could also portray a masculine character like Robin Hood and then make you cry with her tribute to Sarajevo. For her humility in returning for the 1994 Olympics, with zero hope for a medal, just so she could skate for a unified Germany and have her parents in the audience for the first time.

    Chait & Sakhnovsky - For incredible improvement in their basic skating over the years and staying classy amidst major unwarranted hate and the petition against them.

    Navka & Kostomarov - For the sexy posing! And the headbands. And the sex scandals.

    Alexander Abt - For the most gorgeous sweeping edges in skating, overcoming crazy injuries, and having the most wasted potential in skating ever (personal life as well as on the ice).

    Ilia Klimkin
    - For being a sensitive arteeste on the ice and inventing amazing moves like the camel spin into the 3sal, and bringing back classics like the cantilever.
     
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  28. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

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    Nice list, Cherub!

    Yes, Surya brought a lot to the sport where ladies were supposed to be pretty dolls. Her one foot landings on the backflip were amazing. She was a very entertaining show skater and she always excited the crowd.

    Totmianina-Marinin: Although many posters here found them boring, I am happy that you mentioned them. I think in their entire competitive career, they missed a throw just once, and it was shocking when it happened (I think it was a competition in Russia, but I am not sure) because she had never missed a throw. She had one of the most secure edges (may be even The most secure edge) on her landings of the throws. I liked this team as soon as I saw them at the 2001 worlds practice session. I was happy that they developed into Olympic champions. After the 2006 Olympics they skated exhibitions that were very demanding technically and they had developed passion in their skating too. I wish they had been around longer.
     
  29. mkats

    mkats New Member

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    I know you meant Yao Bin but it made me :lol:
     
  30. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Totmianina & Marinin are another underappreciated pair. People call them boring, lacking in chemistry and magic, not very emotional, which some of is true to a degree. However one should also appreciate all the excellent things about the pair, that they are one of the most consistent and precise technical pairs ever, that they always did programs loaded with very high content, their impeccable unision, their outstanding basic skating quality, their beautiful lines, the way their choreography, movements, and body language went perfectly to the phrasing of the music even if the facial expressions werent always there.

    People also talk about them winning the Olympics only because Shen & Zhou were injured yet forget Totmianina & Marinin had a winning record vs Shen & Zhou in 03-04 when both were healthy and in their primes, that is without even counting their sound defeat at the 06 Olympics when coming back from injury. A totally clean S&Z probably beat T&M, but T&M have a big edge in consistency over S&Z or anyone else as they are one of the most consistent pairs of all time. S&Z had to skate cleanly to beat a clean T&M, and they more often than not dont skate totally clean, which explains the losing record when both were in their primes. Not to mention whereas Totmianina & Marinin won their Olympic Gold by 15 points, Shen & Zhou barely on their gold by a couple points over Pang & Tong, and lost the LP to Pang & Tong. Pang & Tong btw finished a whopping 18 points behind Totmianina & Marinin in Turin and did not medal, despite skating close to clean there as well. Neither the 06 or 2010 events were exceptional overall, but safe to say Totmianina & Marinin from Turin would have beaten any pair of Olympic performances ever done by Shen & Zhou.