Skaters and Doping

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by TheIronLady, Mar 3, 2013.

  1. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2007
    Messages:
    11,092
    What is even more sad about that is I don't think Mervin is actually Team Japan anymore :( At least, I'd assume he is trying to get released.


    Here is a tweet from Ross Miner. Doesn't sound like these visits are quick...
    Here is an article from a track athlete about doping control. It sounds like they get tested out of competition VERY frequently. Three missed tests equal a positive test- so they have to be diligent about alerting the agency to any schedule changes.
    http://espn.go.com/espnw/athletes-life/7862074/hurdler-lashinda-demus-drug-testing-track-field
  2. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2010
    Messages:
    3,541
    If he's not with team Japan who is he with? Is it official that he's done with Japan and skates for Canada? Doping control doesn't know (and shouldn't care) what team he may be with now. They just want his sample; I'm sure they could care less about what country he skates for; he's an eligible skater who still needs to be in compliance, that's their one and only job.
  3. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2007
    Messages:
    11,092
    Doping control definetly cares what team they are on- USADA does the out of competition for US athletes, for example. They have no jurisdiction over non-US athletes (by my understanding), maybe the countries contract with each other for overseas athletes through WADA? JADA is in charge of Japan's doping control.

    Yes, he is still with Japan, as they would need to release him, but since he is now non-active (until he finds a partner, and I assume that since he won't be able to get citizenship, it is unlikely he'll want another Japanese one) a 7 a.m. wake up call adds a bit of insult to injury.
  4. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2010
    Messages:
    3,541
    Since Tran is still an eligible skater (not officially retired) and although he now has a new skating partner from Canada, he still skates for Japan until they release him (which I haven't heard they've done yet.) So doping for him is still in effect for the country he represents...Japan.

    Some people seem to think the testers care if he skates for Japan or Canada, they don't. They get the doping request and go out and do it.

    7:00 AM, 12:00 PM, 9:00 PM, no one likes it anytime but it's a necessary evil in sports. You can let them know you have pressing personal business like you are getting married or a have a funeral and they usually honor that request; although they don't have to.
  5. Prancer

    Prancer The "specialness" that is Staff Member

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2001
    Messages:
    38,325
    Argh! I cannot believe that these stories are still circulating.

    The agent's credentials were NOT expired; she didn't have a new sticker yet because WADA hadn't sent it to her. Kyoko did not notice this at the time, anyway.

    The agent showed up when she did because when she notified Kyoko that a drug test was due, Kyoko sent her a fax saying she was going out to dinner and would be home around 10. The drug test was supposed to be done that day (which was stated in the request), so the woman showed up then to do it.

    Kyoko refused to give a sample because she didn't think she had to, as she was planning to retire. The man who accompanied the agent (not her boyfriend, but someone who was there so the agent wouldn't be alone at night) advised Kyoko to call a lawyer before she signed the paper refusing to give the sample, which she also declined.

    All of this came out at the hearing, Kyoko was sanctioned, and then she issued her statement about being confused about whether she had to give a sample.
    julieann and (deleted member) like this.
  6. Cant Skate

    Cant Skate Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2012
    Messages:
    143
    "Since Tran is still an eligible skater (not officially retired) and although he now has a new skating partner from Canada,"

    Has that been officially announced? I know he's had try outs but didn't know a choice had been made....
  7. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

    Joined:
    May 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,218
    Nothing has been officially announced AFAIK. This is the only (hearsay) info that's been posted that I know of: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/sho...-and-updates&p=3853458&viewfull=1#post3853458
  8. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2010
    Messages:
    3,541
    Thank you, that clears up a lot.

    If he doesn't get a partner who is already Canadian he will run into the same citizenship issues as he did with Narumi and even the 2018 Olympics may be out of the question. No matter who he tries out with, she needs to be Canadian; but at any rate he still represents Japan.
  9. smileyskate

    smileyskate New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2007
    Messages:
    667
    Princess Leppard wrote: I think some of you may not realize that you are observed as you pee. You can't just go into a bathroom like you do in the doctors office.


    I wondered about that. Maybe Kyoko was tired of that, plus trying to go when someone shows up late and while an unknown dude is standing nearby, or anywhere in your home ,while nobody is there to oversee what he's doing, would be tough.
  10. judiz

    judiz Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2006
    Messages:
    3,196
    So do the skaters have to let them know

    if they will be away from home for more than one day, do they have to submit their training schedules so the agents know when they are at the rink?
  11. Prancer

    Prancer The "specialness" that is Staff Member

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2001
    Messages:
    38,325
    Or maybe Kyoko refused because she was planning to retire and didn't think she had to, exactly as she said.

    There is no requirement that they be at the rink except after competitions; the agents contact the athletes and the athletes tell the agents when and where they will be available for testing. When Kyoko sent the fax to the agent, the agent took it as Kyoko scheduling an appointment, as that is what the athletes are supposed to do.

    If they are away from home and their names come up, a local agent is sent out to do the test.
  12. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

    Joined:
    May 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,218
    Mervin Tran is included in this ISU Figure Skating Registered Testing Pool 2012/13 document (scroll down) which is why he was eligible to be tested out of competition when someone knocked on his door in the early morning hours in January 2013:
    http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-204898-222121-173492-0-file,00.pdf

    More information can be found on USFS' site: http://www.usfsa.org/shell.asp?sid=40786
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2013
  13. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2007
    Messages:
    11,092
    Read the article I posted from the track athlete. It does sound like they are responsible for letting the agency know a pretty detailed schedule.
  14. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2010
    Messages:
    1,520
    If she just didn't feel like giving a sample, that sounds pretty haughty or arrogant at best. How was that not going to get her the trouble she ended up getting?
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2013
  15. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2005
    Messages:
    18,029
    I don't think that was mentioned that she didn't feel like giving a sample. But you really should stop putting assumptions on things that you cannot verify or confirm.
    Kasey and (deleted member) like this.
  16. danceronice

    danceronice Corgi Wrangler

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2006
    Messages:
    6,463
    Have you given a lot of urine samples? It took me about fifteen minutes to pee in the stupid cup having KNOWN I was taking a drug test today, drank water, and having been alone in the bathroom without someone watching me try to do it. If someone showed up at my house in the middle of the night and demanded I produce a sample on the spot they'd better hope I'd just had a lot of water and not just used the toilet because if so, they'd be waiting a very, very long time.

    (Mine was an employment test, not a USADA test, obviously, but still, it's a lot of pressure when they tell you to go on command.)
  17. dawnie

    dawnie Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2004
    Messages:
    348
    I've actually been curious about this since I saw the Anti-Doping video with Rachael Flatt. I know the representative goes in the bathroom/stall with you but are they actually watching you pee? Or they just stand there and not watch you but listen for the sound?
    TheIronLady and (deleted member) like this.
  18. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2010
    Messages:
    1,520
    Now I wish I hadn't started this thread. :lol:

    It's clear that the testing regime would make it necessary to mask or conceal any use carefully.

    So do we think any skaters could benefit androgenic steroids? Enough to make it worth the risk of being suspended? It seems unlikely to me. Now diuretics seem more worth the risk for a skater, especially one who is older and trying to control her weight.
  19. PrincessLeppard

    PrincessLeppard Pink Bitch

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2003
    Messages:
    22,013
    I've been drug tested at jobs twice. Yes, they watch you pee, because they have to make sure you aren't substituting fake pee.

    It is truly a :scream: worthy event.
  20. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2005
    Messages:
    18,029
    Are you advocating drug use as long as it can be covered up?
  21. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2010
    Messages:
    1,520
    No, but I think lots of people take medications to improve their quality of lives. Some people take prescription diet pills. I do not judge what people deem to be appropriate for their own bodies if a doctor is supervising it. Now in the case of sport, I think it's important to discourage and punish chemical enhancements because it will be taken to extremes otherwise. Realistically, though, the questions I'm asking are important if you want to know what athletes may actually be doing.
  22. Kasey

    Kasey Loving on babies!

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2004
    Messages:
    11,811
    There is the assigned "pee nark" in the military as well (an assigned extra duty [hehe, duty] that you get randomly chosen for), and yes you do have to be looking during the event, to make sure that there is no substitution going on.

    Although to do a urine drug screen, it only requires 10ml of urine (although they generally ask to fill the cup up to a certain line, like halfway). Unless you've been in the desert for a week, haven't drunk anything all day and just peed, you should be able to squeeze out enough for a UDS.
  23. Bournekraatzfan

    Bournekraatzfan New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2005
    Messages:
    1,748
    exactly.
  24. 5Ali3

    5Ali3 Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2005
    Messages:
    434
    :lol: No, they watch.

    The procedures may have changed, but last I knew: the athlete pulls up their shirt; it has to be folded or tucked so it stays up with the very bottom of the shirt essentially covering the breast area and no more. Pants/underwear are dropped to the floor and the athlete needs to put their arms in the air and do a full 365 degree turn in front of the tester to show that there are no "false urine" devices present on the athlete. The athlete breaks the seal on the specimen container and then - well, hopefully then, maybe later, ohdearskategodswhycan'tIpeealready - urinates into the container. The athlete then divides the sample into two jars (the "A" and "B" samples) and verifies that the jars are correctly labelled with the athlete's identifying code/information. Then the athlete places the two jars into a container of some sort which is sealed in the presence of both the athlete and the tester. And then there's some paperwork. Athletes under the age of 18 may have a chaperone present; technically, the chaperone is supposed to be positioned so he/she can see the tester while the athlete is peeing but not be able to see the athlete urinating. A sledge hockey player told me that athletes who use catheters can provide their own catheter but it has to be factory-sealed and shown to the tester prior to being opened. I don't know how testing works for athletes who require assistance to use a catheter or are unable to hold the specimen container while urinating.

    During in-competition testing, the drug-testing bathroom and waiting areas must be isolated, so at U.S. Nationals it's a curtained-off area with some seriously crazy security - those USADA folks are serious. And if you inadvertently wander towards drug testing... :lynch: Out of competition, the testing area needs to be "secure." The testing protocols have actually become much more reasonable over the years. Although athletes are supposed to notify USADA where they will be at all times, there's a one-hour window each day where you MUST be available at a specific address for testing, and athletes can update the location online with a certain amount of notice. Most athletes seem to pick early morning at their home - sure, you get woken up a few times a year at 5AM, but at least you know where you'll be (well, as long as you're sleeping in your own bed :shuffle:). Testing can occur at any time, but figure skating is low on the priority list for out-of-competition testing.

    The out-of-competition rules for drug use have become more reasonable over time; I remember when most or all birth control pills were on the banned list, for example, and they increasingly allow OTC medications to be used outside of competition. The window to notify USADA for "emergency" medication has become slightly longer; they used to pick random fights (years ago, I remember someone with pneumonia having her Therapeutic Use Exemption petition for five out-of-competition days of oral steroids being turned down) and I haven't heard crazy stuff like that in the past decade. As more information has emerged about the systemic and sophisticated doping in other sports, USADA/WADA seemed to decide that pseudoephedrine was a battle with zero consequence in comparison to what's really out there.

    How much doping is there in skating? More than we think, I suspect. I'm not saying that from any :sekret:, but simply because there's so much doping in other sports: how can there not be doping somewhere, on some level? I will say that I think there's less doping in skating than there used to be, especially since the Eastern Bloc money/motivation/captive athletes that drove the doping is gone. Testing has gotten so much better that the risks of doping have gone up significantly.
    TheIronLady and (deleted member) like this.
  25. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2010
    Messages:
    1,520
    Thanks for this fascinating explanation of how USADA/WADA works in the practical world.

    Why are (or were) catabolic steroids (corticosteroids)--which do not help build but break down muscle mass--on the banned substances list? Do they interfere with results for other substances? I recall Terry Gannon claimed that Slutskaya had to get permission to take prednisone.
  26. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2010
    Messages:
    3,541
    Many medications prescribed or otherwise mask other things which is why Yuri Larionov was banned. They can petition WADA and will grant them special permission if they need to take prohibited substances to get back to normal-like if they had surgery and need painkillers or steroids. But they must ask first, if it's an emergency surgery WADA needs to know as soon as possible. Even if it's prescribed by a doctor, the athlete is ultimately responsible for what goes in their body and it has bit some of them in the butt unfortunately for relying on what a doctor said instead of checking themselves.
    TheIronLady and (deleted member) like this.
  27. danceronice

    danceronice Corgi Wrangler

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2006
    Messages:
    6,463
    I've never had anyone watch an employment drug test (thank God, or I'd be BEGGING for a catheter or a blood draw--I wish they'd do blood, it would be so much easier) but you have to take off any bulky clothes, can't carry your purse or any other item that could be hiding a fake sample, the bathrooms usually don't have a sink (ie drain), no trash can, you can't flush until they check (the one I just did, they blocked the handle) and they wait at the door.

    I would guess they need a waiver for prednisone because it might show up as a false positive-it's not helpful, but it might interfere with the results, so they need to know you're taking it. Though I just skated on a week of it for allergies, and it's miserable.