Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, Aug 15, 2012.
I believe she done Broadmoor and Detroit comps too
Charbonneau's highest summer competition score that I know of is 132.77 at Skate Detroit (91.63 in FS Final round), up from her 112.16 total at Broadmoor Open in June (where she intentionally doubled most of her jumps in her FS).
I don't disagree with giving Lacoste and Osmond the senior Bs. I just don't know what they are thinking in regards to the host pick for Skate Canada. And not using the second spot at the US senior B doesnt make sense since they are using both spots for mens, pairs, and dance.
Yeah, I agree with you there. I guess I had assumed that perhaps the US didn't want a second Canadian lady (and I wouldn't be able to blame them if so ), but if we really are entitled to send two ladies, it does seem silly not to send Charbonneau, given that she has met the SC standards.
According to the event announcement, the US can send three for each discipline, Canada two, and all other Feds one. Whether the US wants or doesn't want a second Canadian Lady should be irrelevant, because they officially invited Canada to send two. (They should be happy: entry fee plus relatively easy competition for their skaters.)
Next year, when there's history, they could follow the Nebelhorn example and make spots based on the prior year's results, but unless Canada launches its own Senior B, that would be nasty, since it's the only Senior B on the NA continent. I wish the privilege had been extended to Mexico, too.
Why do you think that he didn't deserve the PC scores that he got? He had a couple of poor performances, especially in the free.
Godfrey made even Ten look scratchy by comparison.
I believe Skate Canada has basically washed it's hands of the current crop of Senior Ladies - Charbonneau and Grenier included - and is focused on developing the promising crop of Junior talent, with the hope at least a few will survive puberty and save Canadian ladies skating.
Lacoste is obviously an exception at this point, but if she loses the National title to Osmond or anyone else, I suspect Skate Canada will be pretty much done with her as well, barring significant improvements.
Based on the results of this year's summer competitions, IMO, this may be a wise strategy.
I'm actually surprised SC hasn't washed their hands of Lacoste too.
It'll be interesting to see where Phaneuf fits in to all of this.
SC can't discard of Lacoste yet. She is national champion.
Unless Phaneuf improves her jump confidence she may have to reconsider her skating career
So that might partially explain your thoughts on skating skills. What about the rest of them? There is a lot more than skating flow to PC marks, fyi.
According to the criteria:
Balance, rhythmic knee action, and precision of foot placement
Flow and effortless glide
Rhythm, strength, clean strokes, and an efficient use of lean create a steady run to the blade and an ease of transfer of weight resulting in seemingly effortless power and acceleration.
Cleanness and sureness of deep edges, steps, and turns
The skater should demonstrate clean and controlled curves, deep edges, and steps.
Varied use of power/energy, speed, and acceleration
Variety is the gradation – some of which may be subtle
Multi directional skating
Includes all direction of skating: forward and backward, clockwise and counterclockwise including rotation in both directions.
Mastery of one foot skating--No over use of skating on two feet.
It's very difficult to have flow -- true flow, not just powering through -- without having cleanness and sureness of the edges, steps, and turns, and he managed to maintain through varied use of speed and acceleration. He didn't appear to me to have significantly less multi-directional skating or significantly more two-footed skating than other some of the other men in the competition who scored at least 2 points higher than him and among the junior skaters who scored higher than them. (CoP judging doesn't have separate standards for Juniors.) When moving, on the whole he looked well centered and controlled, although he was clearly demoralized by the end of his FS.
His jumps were a mess, but, on the other hand, Liam Firus fell four times and had at least one very skating spin entrance as well, or major failures on 40% of his elements. I wouldn't put Godfrey in the same league as Firus -- I think there are two types of skaters, the strength skaters and the softer ones (Reynolds these days, Takahashi, Abbott, Korzuka, Gachinsky for example), and that of the strength skaters, only Patrick Chan surpasses him on his blades. However, looking at how close the range of PCS were for each skater, similar to most international judging, was a huge but familiar disappointment, as the point of CoP is to give credit where it is due, and what I see was the equivalent of ordinal placements, and the dismissal of what I saw were a skater's strengths.
I agree that Charbonneau deserves to be considered for a Senior B based on her summer performances (Skate Detroit FS Final, MN State Champs SP), but maybe Skate Canada is only sending 1 lady to Salt Lake City because they are trying to give Lacoste the opportunity to gain more ISU World Standings ranking points to improve her Grand Prix starting order number? This what I posted in the Salt Lake Senior B thread in GSD:
Here's how the Skate Canada SP start order would look like based on the current ISU World Standings:
?? TBA CAN
82 Kaetlyn Osmond CAN - 338 points
55 Gracie Gold USA - 700
26 Caroline Zhang USA - 1315
21 Amélie Lacoste CAN - 1536 (has a chance to move into 2nd group IF she places top 4 in Salt Lake and Liza T. doesn't compete in a Sr B before SC)
14 Elizaveta Tuktamysheva RUS - 1694
11 Ksenia Makarova RUS
10 Elene Gedevanishvili GEO
6 Kanako Murakami JPN
2 Akiko Suzuki JPN
Lacoste wouldn't be the first ladies national champion SC has discarded.
Firus fell FOUR times? Ugh. Any sign of a 3A?
I suspect Charbonneau's season last year is also factored into the decision of not getting any assignments.
As for Skate Canada caring about Lacoste's start order, I'm not quite sure why they'd care....it's not like she has a shot of the podium or anything.
What does one vs. two ladies being sent to SLC have to do with her ranking? Or are you saying that they're only sending Lacoste in case Charbonneau were to happen to beat Lacoste there?
Yes, Firus attempted 3A in his FS and fell (got credit for rotating it according to the protocol) -- kwanfan1818 wrote up a Senior Men's FS report in the BC SummerSkate thread here: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?p=3661960#post3661960
Yeah, that's what I was trying to say -- just my hypothesis.
at 0:59 sec
He fell on 3A attempts in both the SP and FS, both fully rotated at least. The landings didn't look close though, like when a jump is great until the blade slips out on landing at the last minute. He downgraded a combo in the FS to 1A/2T: I'm not sure if that was supposed to be a 3A/2T or a 2A/2T/2T (since he didn't have a three-jump combo), and his other two combos were 2A/3T and 2Lz/3T, which I assume was supposed to be 3Lz/3T, like in the SP.
Do you mean by not sending another Canadian Lady, there's not another Canadian Lady who can beat her and push her down the results, causing her to lose points?
The only two I can see who meets the SC criteria are Osmond, and she's going to Nebelhorn, and Kitty Qian, although since her hardest jump is 3Lo -- which won the Olympics for John Curry and Robin Cousins -- with 138.X at BC Summerskate, she might not "have attained a score that demonstrates a top 5 placement at that level of competition."
The way I'm reading the International Selection criteria, they can waive the minimum score from a 2012 summer competition requirement for JPG and Senior B's "in extenuating circumstances," but they don't have a provision to allow skaters to skip summer competitions and be assigned, unless they are top 5 at Worlds and assigned two GPs. They could claim "extenuating circumstances" for deSanctis, who was seen bleeding from her hand during her Thornhill FS, but she'd have to recover from that. She would have needed an 82 in the FS to meet the Sr. International minimum, which she did easily at Canadian Nationals last year (FS=96.61), but then so did Najarro, Charbonneau, Grenier, and Rheault. (Chartrand missed by under two points.)
That's probably because she is last year's national champion and still does not have a Worlds qualifying score (SP TES =28, FS TES=48). Here are LaCoste's TES scores from last season's events.
Worlds (16th) SP 25.80, FS 44.89
4C (7th) SP 25.84, FS 43.84
Skate Canada (7th) SP 26.71, FS 43.22
Rostlecom (8th) SP 25.03, FS 46.98
World Team Trophy SP 23.72 FS 45-05
In each case she was at least one big error from achieving the Worlds qualifying score. She does also have one GP assignment this fall (Canada) but I guess they figure she needs as many tries as she can get to lay down a clean SP and reasonably clean FS.
On the one hand, last year's consistently weak performances make one think "why bother?" On the other hand, the next ranked Canadian lady is Phaneuf and she not only needs a qualifying score but will miss the entire fall season recovering from surgery.
Yeah, I'm actually a bit surprised that Skate Canada hasn't discarded Lacoste, too. But I guess that most of the younger ladies are still developing and Osmond still doesn't have a long track record. If anything happened to Osmond or if she starts becoming a head case, SC could be stuck without anyone meeting the minimum score for Worlds if they stuck all their eggs in one basket.
On reflection, I wish that SC had decided to use the second spot in SLC for Osmond. She really needs the points after not getting any fall assignments last year and I don't think that helping Lacoste get a better start order at Skate Canada is a good enough reason to keep Osmond at home.
I found one of Charbonneau's program's from this summer.
Skate Detroit LP
Sorry the other links were actually from 2011, though they had 2012 in the title...
If this is her Skate Detroit initial round FS in late July, she scored 72.90. Charbonneau improved her Final round FS score to 91.63 (finishing 4th behind Hannah Miller, Gracie Gold, and Kaetlyn Osmond).
Yes, it's confusing - 2012 Minnesota State Championships took place in August 2011.
ETA: The official results for the recent 2013 Minnesota State Championships have been published online and Kate Charbonneau scored a total of 122.16. chipso1 had posted in the U.S. Club Competitions thread in Kiss and Cry that Charbonneau scored "49-point-something" in her SP (her Skate Detroit SP score was 41.14) and "120 something [total]... so her FS score was somewhere between 70-80 points."
Sandrine MARTIN (N5 at 2012 Canadians) and Kitty QIAN (qualified for Canadians in Senior but WD) are the 2 new ladies' alternates listed for JGP #5 in Slovenia on the ISU site (link is posted in the JGP Entries thread in Kiss and Cry).
Martin competed at Liberty in July and scored 119.84 total to win Junior Ladies Group A. She then placed 3rd in the FS Final with a score of 77.70 and landed a 3F and two 3S. At the Québec Summer Championships in August, Martine edged Julianne Séguin (77.10 to 73.75) in the Junior FS Groupe 2 - here's Martine's winning performance to Liszt's "Liebestraum" (4 triples including a 3T that she doubled in her Liberty FS Final): http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/24662291
Here are Kitty Qian's Senior programs from BC SummerSkate:
SP (48.68): http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/24761695
FS (89.62): http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/24787627
2013 Minnesota State Championship results are finally online, and Kate Charbonneau had a total score of 127.16 to win the senior ladies event.
(All IJS results from MN State)
That's very close to the 130 benchmark. I wonder if she'll get Skate Canada.
Charbonneau scored 132.77 at Skate Detroit if her higher FS Final round score is counted (41.14 SP + 91.63 FS Final). I wonder if Finlandia Trophy is an option for her?
I just hope they give our senior women a shot. I know it's fun to make fun of the Canadian women's skaters, but you can't get better if you don't get a chance to compete.
I think Skate Canada has made good choices with our JGP assignments for the women.
Are there any other club competitions the Canadians might be entering?
I agree they should provide opportunities especially to those senior who are still developing and improving like Charbonneau..
This is the general Canadian club competitions thread in Kiss and Cry: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?t=84304
I'v compiled some of the known high total scores to date for Canadian skaters in U.S. club comps here: http://unseenskaters.wordpress.com/...tional-skaters-competing-in-u-s-competitions/
If that's the case, she's the only Senior Lady besides Osmond who met the Senior B requirements, since Lacoste only skated one phase of a summer comp.
I am thinking the front runner right now is Charbonneau. Close second would be Desanctis. Maybe they are waiting for the High Performance camp next week to decide. They may be holding out hope for Samson. or perhaps Najarro is ready.
Seguin has been assigned to a 2nd JGP in Slovenia. She did skate well in France. Hopefully she can fix the few mistakes and pick up her speed. Good "go for it" attitude.
Could this be a provisional assignment for her? Skate Canada has yet to post their entries for Slovenia (JGP #5) on their site: http://www.skatecanada.ca/Developme...ts/tabid/234/language/en-US/Default.aspx#jrgp
Her name is listed here with others being substitutes.
Unless SC just had to submit names?
I hope someone else gets the chance, hopefully Kitty Qian, she was great at BC Summer Skate while Seguin was less than impressive at her JGP.
Kitty is so "hit and miss". Seems like for her if there is any pressure she crumbles. 3 years ago in Junior she had a huge lead after the short program and had a disasterous long to fall way down i nthe standings. 2 years ago she managed to keep it together in Victoria. Last year she didn;t even make it past Challenge. Not much competition for her at BC Summerskate this year. Skating at home with no pressure. I really don;t think she would be a good choice for JGP, especially without a 3Lz or 3F.
Kitty Qian reportedly suffered a concussion in a collision with Kate Charbonneau (who sprained her back) in the warm-up before the FS at Challenge last December. That's why I assume Qian could not go to Canadians as the 1st alternate and Christina Yan (who placed behind Qian at Challenge) went instead. Speaking of Yan (14th in Senior at Canadians), she trained this summer in Colorado Springs and competed in a couple of U.S. club competitions (her high total score was 123.03 at Broadmoor Open in June), landing some clean 3S and 3T and attempting 3F (not quite there yet).
That what I was wondering because USFS normally submits "placeholder" names and later finalizes the assignments after results from the skaters' 1st JGP competitions are known. I believe entries/substitutes had to be submitted for Slovenia before the conclusion of the JGP in Courchevel.
With the entry list for the SLC Senior B posted, where would you expect Lacoste to place?
I guess similar with Nebelhorn, where would you expect Osmond to place.
Assume of course that both skate the way they have been. Is it realistic to expect top 5?
Separate names with a comma.