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Silver and bronze medalists for men (behind Chan) at Worlds this year

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by judgejudy27, Nov 20, 2010.

Silver and bronze medalists at Worlds this year for men

Poll closed Mar 30, 2011.
  1. Takahashi

    84.6%
  2. Joubert

    11.5%
  3. Abbott

    35.6%
  4. Oda

    19.2%
  5. Brezina

    2.9%
  6. Rippon

    7.7%
  7. Verner

    24.0%
  8. other

    8.7%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Reynolds on the podium? I would be pretty surprised but I guess crazier things have happened. I hope for a top 10 from him this year, and top 6 would be amazing. Thank goodness the useless Chipeur has retired who had the CSA had a bizarre lovefest with, so Reynolds can now be promoted as our #2.
     
  2. senorita

    senorita New Member

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    Let Kozuka get a world medal at last and I dont care then if Chan is on the podium with 84 falls, one for each pcs point he gets.

    Some people said it correct, Takahashi is stupid to fall once in Olympics, 3 more falls and he would have been Olympic Champion now. D
     
  3. mia joy

    mia joy Well-Known Member

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    That is just riddiculous... Next time we won't have an Olympic champion without a quad, we will have one who does a bunch of quads and falls on all of them :rolleyes: and then he'll fall on a couple of triples, but hey, they will all be fully rotated and the guy will have such amazing edges! :p

    Poor Reynolds has no chances of beating Chan even if he does 10 quads in the event...
     
  4. Clytie

    Clytie Member

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    OK I am assuming this is sarcastic? I do get that Patrick scoring this high is a somewhat of joke. At the same time I think back to Grishuk and Platov and the early nineties falling on their butts and coming in the top 3 of the worlds I think I was shocked. A fall in ice dance and you win a medal? Back then when ice dance looked so much easier to me without any jumps. But then Paul Martini of all people(not exactly diplomatic) said that G and P were so far superior in terms of skating skills ahead of anyone else that is did'nt matter if they fell. They deserved to place where they did. That was my skating wake up call. In other words, even if I could'nt see it there were some skaters that were so mind-blowing only the judges could see their brillance. Grishuk and Platov were such skaters apparently so is Chan. I like both but honestly do not see their breath taking beyond others ability.

    I also have to add I remember Kurt falling on his a** during his short program at the 92 Olympics. The judges put him 4th - a total gift. I also think B and S got a gift at the 1998 Olympics. Its not like this has never happened before, even under 6.0. Certain skaters being held up. I just think with Chan its so more obvious with so few reasons most of us, who even like him, can see. And of course COP is supposed to eliminate all this. When it comes to human judging I am of the opinion this is impossible to be total nonbias. Its why eye witness evidence is so notiously unreliable in court cases. Of course it gives us skating fans endless fodder for bit**ing though.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2010
  5. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Falling once and winning a bronze cant really be equated to falling a whole bunch of times and winning golds.
     
  6. bek

    bek Guest

    Heck, I'd even say falling once and winning the competition, isn't the same as falling four times and winning. I've got no issue with G/P being allowed to win with a mistake, even a major one. And I have no issue with Patrick Chan winning the short program with one major mistake. But the concept that of Patrick having a 3fall cushion is just incredible to me. Why bother even having jumps then?

    And Judy I have to say in defense of Patrick's jumps getting high GOE, that Chan actually does have really difficult entrances going in and out of most of his jumps...

    I just don't understand why people keep on comparing Patrick winning with 3 falls, to other skaters winning with one fall. There's a HUGE difference between one fall-and three falls.
     
  7. Clytie

    Clytie Member

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    Honestly I am not trying to get into an argument just trying to generate some discussion to clear up my confusion.


    But what I talked about was during the early nineties when practically no one in ice-dance fell.(Unlike say the Torino OD) To see Grishuk and Platov fall and win a medal was shocking. Shae and Vic fell at the end of their Olympic 2002 program and lost a bronze. Even to the Italians who did not have a perfect skate. But people argued they were better. When is a fall or falls considered to so significant that they destroy a program? Do the rules dictate when a fall or falls should be considered so significant that a program should be considered a failure? And marked accordingly.

    I am not saying what is going on with Patrick is right. I don't think it is. I know his skating skills are fantastic. Even as just a viewer I can see that he does things fewer other skates do - skate in both directions, covers the ice well, takes almost no rest breaks. Do I think that entitles him to win with 3 falls? No. But at the same time I have been hoping that good spins, good footwork and good interpretation would be rewarded. Along with good jumps. I am not sure that we will ever get to a system that does that. I am personally happy Tomas won COR. The fact that he won it because Patrick did too many combos, to me does not sit well. He skated better overall and the score should reflect that. I don't think there is any kind of Chan-Aid going on per say but the marking is strange. Of course having watched skating for over 20 years I often find myself shaking my head. COP has not changed that. I did love that it gave Jeff Buttle a world title in 2008. I am still not sure 6.0 would have. Paul Wylie seemed shocked by it.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2010
  8. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Bourne and Kraatz are not at the level of Gritschuk & Platov, even a younger Gritschuk & Platov. A team like Bourne & Kraatz will definitely not medal with a fall at a World or Olympic event since there are multiple top teams either their level or better. They are a team that has to skate at their top level to have a shot of a medal.

    I think you are referring to the 1992 Worlds perhaps? Well at those Worlds yes G&P took a fall and stayed in 3rd, but Usova & Zhulin had a worse fall than Gritschuk & Platov and still easily held onto their 2nd place silver. For the record I didnt disagree with any of those results. With the Duchensays out the 3 Soviet teams were far better than the rest. G&P being behind their teammates and the Duchensays the last 2 years had not yet won a World medal so it wasnt so much that the judges considered them that amazing at that point, just that they were that much better than a team like Callegeri & Camerlengo (who were yet another overrated Italian dance team and should have never been above teams like Rahkammo & Kokko and Moniotte & Lavancy this year anyway, let alone winning a medal). Then at the 94 Worlds Gritschuk & Platov won with a quick fall but the silver and bronze medalists from the Olympics and their main 2 rivals Usova & Zhulin and Torvill & Dean were both absent. Had either been there that probably would have cost them the gold considering how close all 3 were this season, but as it was it was, it was understandable they still won. Moniotte & Lavanchy who were only 5th at the Olympics which G&P had won received marks very close and took 2 1st place votes off G&P, so it is not like the judges ignored the one quick fall either. That is the only time Iever remember M&L coming close to beating G&P.

    As for Bourne & Kraatz vs the Italians in 2002, I actually prefered B&K's free dance performance since their fall was less disruptive and the Italians were a bit of a mess. However the Italians were the reigning World Champions so the knockout theory was in effect, B&K couldnt realistically expect to fall themselves right after the Italians opened that door. And anyway neither team really deserved the bronze, Drobiazko & Vanagas clearly were robbed of atleast the bronze in SLC.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2010
  9. Cheylana

    Cheylana Well-Known Member

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    Eh, wasn't Patrick a surefire bet to win 2009 Worlds? Yet there Patrick skated a cautious but clean short program and got buried in third behind Joubert and Lysacek. And he only moved up to silver because Joubert forgot how to land his double axel in the free. :p
     
  10. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Good, hopefully the thread will blow up in my face as some of my past threads have. That is my wish anyway in this case.

    Funny how once upon a time a couple small mistakes could lost Chan a gold medal. Now all of a sudden 4 falls cant lose it for him. You would think his skating had improved by mountains and valleys since then, when really expect for adding the quad it is just the same, but with weaker triple jumping now.
     
  11. Ozzisk8tr

    Ozzisk8tr Well-Known Member

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    Too funny. Someone's bitter... :shuffle:
     
  12. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Whats funny. I never meant anything I said as a joke. And a bitter individual would be blind to the facts and refusing to accept them. I however am observent to the truth and accept the way things are, hence the poll debating the available silver and bronze medals for the mens event.
     
  13. Ozzisk8tr

    Ozzisk8tr Well-Known Member

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  14. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    Well, anyway, he won Skate Canada with 4 falls, not Worlds !
    He didn't even win Cup of Russia with 4 falls !
    I am one of those who think his skills are far superior to anyone else (and I'm an Abbott fan). But winning Worlds is not the same.
    At Worlds, I hope the other skaters will be at their top. And if this is the case, Chan will need to fall less than twice to win ! ;)
     
  15. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    He competed against everyone noteable except Takahashi, and Takahashi barely beat Oda in his second event (would have lost without Oda doing an extra combo). So obviously Chan doesnt need to do more than he already has to win Worlds. As for losing Cup of Russia with 4 falls that is only due to the extra combo, otherwise it would have required atleast a 5th and maybe a 6th fall for defeat to occur. So no he didnt really lose Cup of Russia with just 4 falls in the true sense of things. I think it is wishful thinking to believe 4 falls would be enough for Chan to lose Worlds. 5 maybe he would lose, depending on who skates clean and lights out I guess, but that is probably even a stretch, especialy as the CSA will likely pour even more money into this plan by then.

    There is no gold competition at Worlds. Only a silver and bronze one. And that one should be quite a battle with the # of contenders.
     
  16. museksk8r

    museksk8r Holding an edge and looking dangerously sexy

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    You are aware that the only reason Chan didn't repeat as a 4 fall champ at the Grand Prix of Russia was because he did an extra 4th illegal jump combo that he received absolutely no credit for, right? Had he only done a solo 2Axel at the end instead of a 2Axel+3toe combo, he would have won a second straight gold medal with 4 falls in a competition. So, in the judges' minds, a 4 fall Chan is better than Verner with no falls, a clean SP, and an 8 triple LP. :confused: Any sane, reasonable person can see the great flaw in that. :EVILLE::wall:
     
    flutzilla1 and (deleted member) like this.
  17. NMURA

    NMURA Active Member

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    Even if Chan didn't add extra 3T to the 2A, the score would be a little more than 230. The judges could "adjust" not to let him win. And it's clearly impossible to win WC with this kind of score.
     
  18. mia joy

    mia joy Well-Known Member

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    I just think falling 4 times in a competition should affect the SS score a bit... slightly at least. In this case, he got 8.50 in comparison with Verner and Abbott's 7.89 (in the free). Also, there is such thing as intepretation - did he really interpret the music the best of all the guys? Highly doubt it. And then, how can you praise a guy's jumping technique (difficult in and out of the jumps), if many of those jumps end up with him down on the ice?
     
  19. NMURA

    NMURA Active Member

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    Did you hear the crowd cheering after they knew Chan didn't win? I can expect exactly the same reaction in Tokyo.
     
    flutzilla1 and (deleted member) like this.
  20. clarie

    clarie Well-Known Member

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    I sincerely hope that Patrick skates a super clean program at WC's, and wipes the smiles off all the haterz faces. I would think then that since he would shut the naywishers up, but, then again, I'm sure there would be those who would "wuzrob" their favorites.......am I right? For a 19 year old, he's damn good, perhaps even one of the "greats". I hope he sticks around for a while. :)
     
  21. kittyjake5

    kittyjake5 Well-Known Member

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    I did not vote because I think either Dai or Jeremy will win Worlds.
     
  22. Nomad

    Nomad Celebrity cheese-monger

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  23. Allen

    Allen Glad to be back!

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    I think Patrick has amazing skills, but I really don't think he's going to win Worlds with 3 or more falls. In my gut, I actually feel like Takahashi will win worlds again this year. I don't think his skills are that far below Chan and I actually like his performance quality much more. I can see Chan winning worlds with a fall in the long program and maybe a fall on the quad in the short, but I hope even that doesn't happen. Chan may have the best basics out there, but I want whoever is World Champion to skate relatively clean. I know that under COP skating clean is not that important, but it's still something I hold on to :)
     
  24. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    It depends. Takahashi skating cleanly with quads would probably still deserve to beat Chan skating cleanly with quads, and it would be expected a defending World Champion would get the benefit of a close decision on his home ice anyway, so in that scenario yeah you would probably be right. On the other hand that is in the fantasy World of fair judging, in the real World I am sure most of us will just be relieved if Chan wins the first of his series of pre ordained World titles with only 3 or 4 falls rather than 5 or 6 he might still be given it with. If he wins it with less than 3 all the better.
     
  25. museksk8r

    museksk8r Holding an edge and looking dangerously sexy

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    clarie, the very idea of Patrick skating "super clean" is just absolutely unfathomable given his history. The last time Chan skated an error-free LP was at the Canadian Nationals in 2008 three seasons ago and there he only attempted one 3Axel and no quad.
     
  26. ks1227

    ks1227 Well-Known Member

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    :eek: Ummm ... obsessed much? :shuffle:
     
  27. Jenna

    Jenna Well-Known Member

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    :lol: This thread is truly entertaining. How many times can someone say the same thing in a slightly modified context?
     
    ks1227 and (deleted member) like this.
  28. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Liza, Julia, Elena, Evgenia, Russian pairs

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    I assume this whole thread is meant to be a tongue in cheek, so I will play along.

    I picked Takahashi and Abbott. I think Jeremy is overdue for a world medal. I hope he has two very good skates and can find a place on the podium. Sorry Jeremy, the gold is not available.:lol:

    As much as I like Takahashi, I think he is going to make just enough mistakes to allow Chan to win the gold. Of course a clean skate against Chan is not a guarantee, even if Chan falls 3-4 times, even for the reigning world champion.:lol:
     
  29. DarrellH

    DarrellH New Member

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    I hear Dick Button and Plushy are already boxing up their Gold medals to send to him.:D
     
  30. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Liza, Julia, Elena, Evgenia, Russian pairs

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    It won't matter how many deductions he has. He will still get the gold.:lol: