Should US World and Olympic Team Placements Be Made After 4CC?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by bardtoob, Jan 16, 2014.

Should US World and Olympic Team Placements Be Made After 4CC?

  1. Yes

    13 vote(s)
    28.3%
  2. No

    33 vote(s)
    71.7%
  1. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

    8,205
    1,276
    113
    Should US World and Olympic Team placements be made after 4CC since the current years Nationals alone does not really matter?
     
  2. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

    8,205
    1,276
    113
    Seriously, even Russia waits until after Euros.
     
  3. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

    12,019
    1,356
    113
    Will 4CCs be moved further from the Olympics?

    Maybe it could be justified for Worlds- but requiring Olympic skaters to go to 4CCs seriously cuts into the training time and is just incredibly harsh on the body adjusting to the times. Looking at New York to Taipei- it's an 19 hour trip. Colorado Springs to Taipei is a 23 hour trip!!! No one should have to do that a week before the Olympics.

    And while there are likely some European skaters who have brutal flights to Euros and jet lag to deal with: everyone there at least represents a country on the continent already. Moscow to Budapest is 3 hours, London to Budapest 8 hours.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2014
  4. euterpe

    euterpe Well-Known Member

    11,908
    1,152
    113
    4CC is in Taipei two weeks after Nationals and ends 12 days before the start of the Olympics.
    JET LAG!! TOTAL EXHAUSTION!! NO WAY!!

    USFS would be sending limp dishrags to the Olympics to do a team event (up first), which would take them right out of any possible medal.
     
  5. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

    8,205
    1,276
    113
    4CC could be earlier as could Nationals, and not very skater has to go. They could just see how the skaters that go to 4CC do before selecting the team.

    In fact, that would be better for 4CC because people would pay attention to it.
     
  6. Jessiebanana

    Jessiebanana Well-Known Member

    1,482
    56
    48
    1. Euros is a bit earlier than 4CCs and competitors are coming from nearby areas in close time zones. Traveling to 4CCs and simply not knowing where you stand until the end of January, is terrible for an athlete mentally. I wouldn't even send the same people to 4CCs and the Olympics, so in my opinion it's best to know that information early.

    2. Euros might be the more significant competition for smaller European countries, so they may value those results more than nationals. Many countries, I know not all, that participate in 4CCs have very strong national showings. I can't imagine anything being more of a hot pot than Japanese nationals. There is no need for Japan or the US to wait.
     
  7. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

    12,019
    1,356
    113
    Could it? Do you think the ISU will move 4CCs just so the US team can be named after it? Why would the ISU change their calendar for the United States?

    The ISU schedules the events, and they are well aware how close it is to the Olympics. It is clear that it is viewed as a second rate championship and they don't care who attends it. Scheduling it as they did, they had to expect that almost no Olympians who were not based in Asia (or had available training in Asia) would attend.

    I wonder about this. Other than the timing being traditional (and it was earlier this year than I think it usually is, as it usually falls on or near my birthday which is late in the month, so I think they DID move it earlier this year on purpose) I think NBC plays a large part in the scheduling. They have to wait for the college bowl games to be over to get the prime TV time they do. Because while we think the TV schedule sucks, they did have 2 multi-hour blocks on a Saturday and a multi-hour block on a Sunday.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2014
  8. Jessiebanana

    Jessiebanana Well-Known Member

    1,482
    56
    48
    When was the last time 4CCs was earlier than US Nationals?

    When was the last time they held US Nationals before the end of the holiday season?

    4CCs is in a great spot strategically for non Olympic years. Competitors going to Worlds get the extra exposure, while still having enough time to recuperate between competitions.
     
  9. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

    8,205
    1,276
    113
    I'm certain the ISU would do want ever would get people to watch it since it is their championship (ie their broadcast rights).
     
  10. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

    20,569
    1,599
    113
    4CC is one week after Euros, there is hardly any difference there.

    And yes it should. So that you can see how skaters are scored by an international judging panel.

    For example, IIRC Kostner was the only lady in the Euros Ladies SP who had a Lv4 step sequence. And how many of those there were at US Nationals?
     
  11. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

    12,019
    1,356
    113
    Euros ends on January 19th. 4CCs ends January 26th.
    The pairs short starts February 6th. I think a week makes a difference. It's the difference between 10 days before your event and 17! Now, a week doesn't make a difference if it is 30 days or 37, but 10 days? That's nothing.

    Especially with the extreme flight times to get from some of the training locations to Asia? Some of the flights I looked up from Colorado Springs to Taipei took 3 days to complete all the legs of the flight- where will the skater train from the time 4CCs end to the time they need to get to Sochi? Just getting to 4CCs and then getting back (not sure if they could even do this with only 10 days to go until the next event) the travel eats into a lot of the training time, not even dealing with the back and forth of various time zones?

    Though some of the Euros skaters aren't training in Europe- most are. Getting too and from Euros and then to the Olympics isn't nearly what getting to and from North America/Australia/(Anyone from South America?) is.

    Additionally- 4CCs is not a prestigious medal. Many Olympians are going to Euros because it is a notch in their belt only slightly lower than Worlds. I hope skaters are proud of their 4CCs medals, but I have never seen someone proclaimed "4CCs Champion" in the same way a Euro champ is.


    How many countries are waiting until after Euros to name their team? I think Russia is only doing it because they want to name Plushenko but have no justification for it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2014
  12. Jessiebanana

    Jessiebanana Well-Known Member

    1,482
    56
    48
    Just like the Grand Prix, a week does matter. Having grand prix assignments that have three weeks apart, versus one or two, makes all the difference in the world to the improvement of a program. I don't see how an additional week could be anything but beneficial, especially this close.

    Also, I'm not saying every country should wait for Euros either. I simply do not believe it's in the best interest of US skaters heading to the Olympics to wait that long for a decision. Every country is different. Not all countries skaters have the same access to international competition. I don't think that's the case for the US.
     
  13. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

    12,019
    1,356
    113
    I'm not clear which point you are making but with all the Senior Bs in Europe- I think small Euro countries actually have much better access to international competition than the US does. Though in small federations the skaters tend to fund themselves, so it is just money on whether or not they can actually go to them.


    Ziggy- I know it was rhetorical but the answer is probably lower than you'd think. In the free, only 3 skaters got L4 steps: Mariah, Leah, and Mirai. Six skaters managed it in the short.
     
  14. Jessiebanana

    Jessiebanana Well-Known Member

    1,482
    56
    48
    I was thinking outside of the Senior B. Honestly I don't know how those competitions are viewed from the perspective of smaller European countries. I've always thought Euros was considered bigger.
    The only point I was trying to make is that some countries might want to wait for a stronger more competitive pool, before they made final decisions, but with the US having a good number of skaters in the grand prix, I don't see the point.
     
  15. KimGOAT

    KimGOAT Active Member

    741
    44
    28
    I think if anything a skateoff at 4CCs between Wagner, Nagasu, and Edmunds might have been appropriate this year. Despite her "body of work" if Wagner couldnt stand up to the pressure twice (and we know the only way international judges would place her below both Nagasu and Edmunds is if she bombed) she probably wouldnt deserve the Olympics. Nagasu and Edmunds are self explanatory.
     
  16. watchthis!!

    watchthis!! Active Member

    457
    116
    43
    If the ISU wants 4CC to gain the respect that the European Championships have...then yes. I wonder about the future of 4CC sometimes...it's like the bastard child of the skating world or something...

    Why did you put body of work in quotation marks?
     
  17. MrLucky

    MrLucky New Member

    639
    47
    0
    I say if you are a Russian, (where your skaters have a minimal travel requirement to get to Euros) it is your business.

    If like me you happen to be an American then a fairly judged Natls is all we have ever needed to pick our Olympic team.

    As an American I shudder at Pat S tPiseev's directive to silence our senior elite skaters for talking about their feelings.

    Gracie, Polina and Mirai skated their way onto the Olympic team at Natls.

    Ashley should have been a Russian where such a favorable placements would have been the norm.

    Forget Mirai leaving to skate for Japan, it is Ashley who should go skate somewhere else. Her name sounds German so maybe they would be happy to make her something she is not in USA.
     
  18. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

    20,569
    1,599
    113
    I get your point. I think that in the Olympic season, they should move Euros to 6-12 January and move Four Continents to 13-19 January (although that would require cooperation from USFS and Skate Canada in scheduling their Nationals earlier and they would probably refuse...).
     
  19. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

    12,019
    1,356
    113
    I really wonder if it is less about USFS and more about NBC... Both USFS and the ISU are in their pockets. They are apparently why the team event is first and not last, at least from rumors. December isn't good for NBC- too much football- so Nationals wouldn't be then. I guess skaters only got a week to 4CCs this year, so maybe they could just do nationals the first week of January; but if it is an Olympic trial, I don't think they want skaters rushed to competition they aren't prepared for.
     
  20. zippy

    zippy Active Member

    575
    99
    28
    Actually I think sometime in the first 2 weeks of December could work for Nationals, if all parties were willing to move the competitions earlier. They already do push Nationals up by 3 weeks to a month during Olympic years, so I don't know that there's anything sacred about the timing of Nationals. As for appeasing NBC, early January actually has a ton of football and Nationals was directly conflicting with NFL playoff games this year. There might be more college football games in early January in the future with the college football playoffs too. The timing of 4CC in Olympic years is tricky for everyone, not just the US/Canada. The distances are long from Australia too, and from Asia when the event is held in North America. A lot of these countries don't have a B-team to send to 4CCs so they're sending their Olympic team and having to cope with the travel just before the Games. Seems like it would be better for all parties including the ISU if they did look into moving it to early January in Olympic years. Maybe they'd get better attendance from the top skaters, assuming the individual countries were on board with changing the timing of national events.
     
  21. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

    12,019
    1,356
    113
    "The distances are long from Australia too, and from Asia when the event is held in North America. "

    I actually looked up the Australia travel times too (they are worse than most US) but then realized this thread was only about the US.
    Would putting nationals in December penalize a skater who made GPF? (Loss of training time, dealing with her lag) or even prevent them from going? You might say GPF skaters get automatic 4CC entry but in good years that could be very limiting.
     
  22. UGG

    UGG Well-Known Member

    1,854
    370
    83
    FYI Mirai is not on the team, so she actually did not skate her way onto it. Ashley is actually on the team. :D
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2014
  23. euterpe

    euterpe Well-Known Member

    11,908
    1,152
    113
    Having 4CC before Nationals makes even less sense, because it would be sandwiched between GPF and Nationals---right during the holidays (and therefore, Japanese nationals). That wouldn't work.

    USFS uses Nationals as the selection for 4CC. In an Olympic year, Olympic-bound skaters DO NOT go to 4CC because it is more important for them to practice than to travel and lose practice time due to jet lag.

    I realize that many of the suggestions that 4CC be used as a skate-off are being made by Mirai fans who hope that somehow Mirai would push Polina or Ashley or Gracie off the Olympic team, but the reality is that is not going to happen.

    I just hope Mirai is practicing and will skate well at 4CC and is not sulking and slacking off.
     
  24. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

    20,569
    1,599
    113
    Which is why my point was that US Nationals should be moved to some time in December when most other ISU Nationals are held.
     
  25. MrLucky

    MrLucky New Member

    639
    47
    0
    If you think Ashley actually skated her way onto the team at Natls I won't argue with you it about it.

    You did see Natls ,and the scores, right?

    I hope Ash skates much, much better in Sochi. She will have the crowd behind her, no? ;)
     
  26. MrLucky

    MrLucky New Member

    639
    47
    0
    I am not sure what the solution is but you are absolutely right. Having Natls a week before 4CC is a good example of the sheer stupidity we continue to see from US Skating.

    I think it makes good sense to move Natls up at least in Olympic years.
     
  27. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

    1,592
    155
    0
    Worlds: Yes

    Olympics: No

    Ziggy, one thing to remember is that you wouldn't simply be moving Nationals, but the whole lead-up to Nationals with regional and sectional events having to be done earlier. It's not impossible, of course - nations like Russia and Japan have earlier events and they also have deep fields and/or geographic breadth. But it's certainly not just one event changing the schedule.
     
  28. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

    12,019
    1,356
    113
    Nationals was moved up this year. It is usually around the 24th. That's like 2 weeks earlier.
     
  29. jiejie

    jiejie Active Member

    293
    105
    28
    Agreed. US has multiple levels of qualifying. Which starts in early October with regionals and continues into November with sectionals. December for US nationals is a nonstarter for reasons already mentioned by others, plus the fact that skaters in school (most of them) have end-of-term examinations going on, then Christmas holiday. There's nowhere except January to put US Nationals. I think people outside the USA sometimes forget that US Nationals doesn't just have the handful of well-known senior skaters that are byed directly into the competition, but a raft of other skaters representing 5 levels (Senior, Junior, Novice, Intermediate, Juvenile), nearly all of whom must start this competition journey in October.
     
  30. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

    26,863
    4,042
    113
    I agree about the respect issue. It has almost become an afterthought right now but the schedule really gets tight late in the season, and in the Olympic season the distance becomes a big issue. In other years worlds is in late March, so the idea could work in those years.