Should Tuktamysheva and Gachinski leave Mishin?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by risto1803, Nov 24, 2013.

  1. misskarne

    misskarne Spirit. Focus. Ability. Tenacity. Aussie Grit.

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    There seems to be a lot of misinformation in this thread...

    Mishin does NOT shut off his students from outside choreographers. In fact, Liza's much-maligned long program this year was by - gasp! - Jeff Buttle (as was Artur's short). Liza also chose the Latin theme. She likes them. He does NOT restrict them artistically - the selection of Anna Karenina, for example, was made by Artur himself, not by Mishin or anyone else.

    Liza's problems are physical issues related to the onset of puberty. Artur's are predominantly psychological (with a few physical thrown in). No coach in the world can just magically wave a wand and fix either problem. Ever. Mishin is handling them very well, I think, with support and a gentle grace that other coaches would not manage. I mean, can you imagine, say, Tom Zakrasjek being so gentle with a skater whose body changed so radically as Liza's? Or with a skater who suffered such severe psychological problems as Artur's? I certainly can't - he'd likely have broken Liza already and tossed Artur on the scrapheap.

    A coach change is not a magical antidote to every problem. Sometimes it only makes the problem worse. Look at Abbott - all those coaching changes and no-one has ever managed to fix HIS head.

    What I think would benefit Artur most, would be to keep this season's programs again next year. They are very nice programs, especially the beautiful LP, and if he didn't have to worry about learning new programs, it might help him to sort through his problems with other things. (Okay, and the selfish fan-part of me just wants to see Anna Karenina as many times as possible.)
  2. Holy Headband

    Holy Headband New Member

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    Even though I don't like her programmes, I can't help but root for Tuktamysheva. I think she'll be fine. As someone said, puberty hit her harder than most and it will take time to adjust to her new body on the ice. It may take a few years, even, because once you lose momentum with the judges it can be hard to get it back, but I think she has the potential to fight her way back to the top. It seems she's destined for a late-blooming career, in relative terms, which is not always a bad thing.

    I don't even know what to say about Gachinski. I like him a lot and wish he could reset his career and start from scratch. I don't know if Mishin is telling him this, but he needs to forget he was ever a World medallist, in my opinion. He was a different skater then; comparisons to his past accomplishments are fruitless and can only make him feel like a failure. He can't go back to that point in his career or recreate it. He can only build on what he has right now, which is really a blessing in disguise--a chance to let go of people's expectations and reinvent his skating in a way he likes.

    It's good that Mishin has him working with people like Lambiel and Buttle because it signals an awareness on Mishin's part that Artur needs a change in direction and exposure to different approaches to skating, but I want to see signs of this work in his programmes during the season.

    But yes, I'm actually impressed with the way Mishin is handling Gachinski; he seems really patient and supportive and at least intellectually aware that his traditional coaching methods can't meet all of Gachinski's needs. I don't think a change of coaches would work here because no one else would believe in Artur as strongly as Mishin does, and that seems absolutely necessary for his self-esteem right now. But the guy needs a sports psychologist and a staff choreographer or junior coach to resist Mishin's natural programme-gutting tendencies during the season, and maybe a short break from the sport to clear his head and give him some perspective.
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2013
  3. valyrian

    valyrian New Member

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    That's nice, but the problem is that Mishin deletes choreography from his students' programs. I actually quite like some of Artur's musical choices but Liza should not be allowed to have the same Latin program for years on end because it places her in an artistic rut and presents her to the judges as a one-trick pony, artistically. Mishin's skaters are generally deficient in choreography, transitions, and spins. I don't see much of Buttle or Lambiel's influence in the choreography. Absent the very real issues of Liza's growth spurt and Artur's personal issues, they have serious problems with their skating that Mishin is either unable or unwilling to address. That's the point that people are making. Mishin's track record on spins, choreography, transitions, stretch, line, posture is not amazing. He teaches amazing jump technique, and I think he's helped Liza harness her natural charisma in the same way he helped Plushenko, but all her spunk and fire can't overcome her low spin levels, her low TR scores, and her bad posture.

    What do you mean, "all those coaching changes?" Jeremy went to Tom Z when he was 14 and switched coaches to Jason and Yuka ten years later.
  4. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Mishin can definitely teach proper jump technique but his 'only jumps matter' approach is outdated and doesn't cut it any more, under IJS.

    Yes, Mishin's skaters work with outside choreographers but what is the point if he then scraps the programs or takes all of the difficult stuff out?
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2013
  5. Nomad

    Nomad Well-Known Member

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    Well, something isn't working; I won't venture to guess what. It just seems that Gachinskii's senior career has been more miss than hit, and maybe a change would help.
  6. misskarne

    misskarne Spirit. Focus. Ability. Tenacity. Aussie Grit.

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    Okay, fine.

    So, to all those who are so set on sending either or both skaters elsewhere:

    Who would you send them to?

    Tarasova is obviously out.
  7. risto1803

    risto1803 Active Member

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    Rafael Arutunian.
  8. misskarne

    misskarne Spirit. Focus. Ability. Tenacity. Aussie Grit.

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    Oh yes. Because I'm sure an American coach would do their political standing with their federation so much good.
  9. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

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    My sense is that she feared this was the most likely scenario all season long, and all summer, too. From what I saw at SA, she skated a lot better in practice than in competition.
  10. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    Rukavitsyn
  11. valyrian

    valyrian New Member

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    Rafael is an Armenian-Russian living in America, isn't he? Other countries send skaters to him all the time. Russia sent ice dancers to Marina Zueva's group. I don't see why Tarasova is automatically an impossibility either.

    If domestic coaches are mandatory, Liza should go to Eteri Tutberidze. She and Ilia Averbukh did very well this season designing interesting programs to mask Julia's flaws, and they appear to be working on her other issues at a good clip. Goncharenko might work too. Artur I would also send to Tutberidze.
  12. misskarne

    misskarne Spirit. Focus. Ability. Tenacity. Aussie Grit.

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    So you want to remove Artur from a situation with Plushenko and put him straight in with Kovtun, with whom he has bad blood, and which I'm sure will do wonders for his psychological problems, which undoubtedly weren't helped by seeing Kovtun do WORSE than he did at Worlds and get coddled for it?
  13. valyrian

    valyrian New Member

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    Why are you being so vicious? Why are you assuming that every suggestion in this thread is a plot to destabilize Artur and Liza? And why are you assuming that Artur is so mentally weak as to be unable to deal with a little in-rink rivalry? He's not a china doll and he'snot a child. He's a young man who has been strong enough to stay in the sport even through a couple of weak seasons. Perhaps having an opponent who is more on his level and able to be surpassed will let Artur relax a bit. Skating every day with one of the masters of the sport must be good in some levels, but it might also be hard for him to judge himself accurately and above all positively.
  14. Frau Muller

    Frau Muller President of Dick Button Appreciation Club

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    Tuk will likely not progress (will keep dropping) in Russian Nationals standings, considering the depth of talent in Russian Jr and Novice ladies. Given her Central Asian roots, I would not be surprised to see skating for another country in 1 or 2 years' time.
  15. valyrian

    valyrian New Member

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    That is a weird assertion. Liza is a Russian citizen born in Russia to Russian citizens, she might be part of one of Russia's ethnic minorities but that doesn't mean she'll automatically be able to get citizenship for a central Asian country.
  16. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    There are tons of good coaches in Russia. Rukavitsyn sounds really kind and thoughtful and he also works in Saint-Petersburg.
  17. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    What Central Asian roots? :confused:

    She's from Glazov in the Western Urals. I would think it's far more likely that she's an Udmurt than anything else.
  18. navire

    navire New Member

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    Wait. Kovtun said once they didn't get on well when they were 11-13 y/o and you assume they have bad blood? :)
    They aren't buddies, that's right, but ever since Maxim is on top level Artur never said a bad word of him; Artur is very correct about other skaters, usually he doesn't even mention anybody if he's not asked the direct question.
    Here's what he said of Kovtun after the SP at Rostelecom Cup:
    Maxim gathered two quads in the SP, that itself is a good result, for now he is the only one who does this in Russia. He was great and received good points, but we also won't surrender without fighting.
    http://rsport.ru/figure_skating/20131122/702754654.html
    That doesn't look like he has some problem with Max. He just minds his own business.
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2013
  19. love_skate2011

    love_skate2011 Well-Known Member

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    Tutberidze's Group is crowded already, she has Julia, Voronov, Pitkeev, Medvedeva etc
    I doubt she can accompany that many skaters
  20. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    Even if they don't have bad blood, I doubt that Tarasova will be able to politically push two skaters that are competing against each other. It just won't be a good situation. It could be worse than Yagudin & Plushenko in Mishin's group.

    IMO both Liza and Artur learned jump techniques from Mishin which is good. Mentally they are not tough like Plushenko, so they would need coaches that can work on that aspect, and packaging. I don't know enough about the coaches in Russia, and don't know if they are willing to move abroad to train (not necessarily to compete for another country). otherwise Brian Orser may be a good coach for Artur.
  21. Jot the Dot Dot

    Jot the Dot Dot Well-Known Member

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  22. bronwynsings

    bronwynsings Active Member

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    Poor Tuk :( Hoping she can recover soon and recover well!
  23. loulou

    loulou Well-Known Member

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    What happened?
    I'd love to see all the russian girls healthy for future copetitions.
  24. orientalplane

    orientalplane Mad for mangelwurzels

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    Date of photo?
  25. altai_rose

    altai_rose Well-Known Member

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    A couple hours ago. Happened at the Russian Cup final this weekend in practice before LP.
  26. Hanna

    Hanna Wheeeeeeeeeee

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    :(

    OTOH it's not like there were any important competitions left for her to do this season anyway (?) so I guess it's just as well that she can already start preparing for next fall.
  27. DELTA

    DELTA Member

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    poor liza:(
  28. moviechicko_o

    moviechicko_o New Member

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    Mishin seems to have missed the memo on CoP. I don't think he will have a hugely successful skater on the level of his past pupils until he realizes that times have changed and learn how to maximize points. He can't use the same plan on his young skaters that he uses for Plushenko. Plus he could've easily gotten Plush the gold in Vancouver if a tiny bit more strategy was employed.
  29. Maofan7

    Maofan7 Away

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    Tuk's injury happened half way through her Russia Cup Final free program. She stumbled awkwardly. Looked like quite a nasty injury to her ankle. Hope it's not too serious, and that she recovers quickly
  30. misskarne

    misskarne Spirit. Focus. Ability. Tenacity. Aussie Grit.

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    Unfortunately, Mishin says it looks like a torn ligament. :wuzrobbed


    And I think both of them will be fine as long as Mishin resists the urge to take things out of programs that the choreographer gives them. I know Artur was resisting that sort of thing last year, and his Anna Karenina was wonderful (and I even liked the flamenco short that Jeff Buttle did for him).

    Actually, maybe I need to go start a petition. "Petition for Artur to keep Anna Karenina" or maybe just "Petition to put Artur in grey again this season". ;)
  31. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    Poor Liza. She seemed to be skating well- although slow-landing the jump. The injury didn't even happen on a jump, from this link. I hope it's just an ankle sprain and nothing is broken.
  32. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    I thought I had read somewhere that Artur Gachinski had left Mishin. Is that incorrect information?
  33. Maofan7

    Maofan7 Away

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    Accordingly to this article, that's correct (a torn ankle ligament). How absolutely awful, as that is a serious injury. Really hope that Liza can come back from this.
  34. loulou

    loulou Well-Known Member

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    Thank you both for delivering the news, though it's a bad one.

    I really hope no russian girl will be wiped out of the scene by injuries (or puberty), I'd love to see the full roster, as it's a great one. So I wish Tuktamisheva the best possible recovery.
  35. lulu

    lulu New Member

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    Oh no! Poor Liza. :(
  36. rosewood

    rosewood Well-Known Member

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    :( Wishing for her full recovery.
  37. zippy

    zippy Active Member

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    Aw, poor Tuk :(. That's such a classic way to tear a ligament - blade gets stuck in the ice sideways while the body keeps rotating. Unfortunately it can be harder and longer to rehab a torn ligament than a broken bone, but maybe it will turn out to be not such a severe tear. At least the timing of it should allow her to take her time with the rehab. Wishing her a speedy and full recovery!
  38. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    I think this might end Tuk's career. The straw that breaks the camel's back.
  39. Loves_Shizuka

    Loves_Shizuka Well-Known Member

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    ^I hope not. I like her jump technique more than any of the other Russian girls. I'd love to see her fulfill at least some of that potential :(