Should Tuktamysheva and Gachinski leave Mishin?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by risto1803, Nov 24, 2013.

  1. risto1803

    risto1803 Active Member

    212
    30
    28
    I think that both Tuktamysheva and Gachinski are not progressing in the last two years. Moreover, I think they are regressing, specially Arthur. At this point I think that Gachinski has no chance to go to the Olympics and Tuktamysheva's chances are very, very small. Mishin is known to be a great technical coach, but they are behind the other Russian skaters even in technique. Let's not even talk about the whole packaging-the programs are choreographically weak, the music does not work well for them, the costumes are boring. We are constantly seeing weak performances by them. And Mishin always has some excuses. It is clear that they have issues performing the short programs, but they have these issues for two years. I have a feeling that the Russian Federation will lose any interest in them very, very soon.
    Maybe the should just try working with someone else? Maybe moving to US and working with Rafael Arutunian? It is just sad that such promising skaters are stuck with Mishin and regressing.
     
  2. valyrian

    valyrian New Member

    78
    25
    0
    Yes, and soon. Mishin has given them a good base with jump technique, but everything else is so lacking, and I'm sure his attentions are caught up with Plushenko now. Liza especially, it disheartens me to see her potential wasted when she has so much fire and passion. Artur might be a lost cause, I don't know. He hasn't really skated with joy for the past couple of seasons.

    Mishin needs to at least stop deleting choreography from their programs. And for a master coach, he is really terrible at getting the levels.
     
  3. Maofan7

    Maofan7 Member

    6,335
    3,404
    113
    I think the time has come for both of them to move on to a new coach. They have both been regressing and I think they have gone as far as they can with Mishin.
     
  4. Bailey_

    Bailey_ Guest

    Please YES!!
     
  5. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

    6,567
    276
    83
    Yes absolutely they should! Liza has done the same sp and lp for her entire senior Career and gachinski Had major regression and maybe wants to move to Canada. They need to keep jump technique though and I think that's why they wont leave.
     
  6. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

    31,141
    4,376
    113
    Not following Gachinski but Tuk, absolutely. She needs something fresh to revive her skating.
     
  7. kosjenka

    kosjenka Well-Known Member

    2,921
    1,132
    113
    I dont get the hype with Tuktamisheva.
    I love saying her name and if i were to move to Russia I would change my name to Elizaveta Tuktamysheva - Tuk for friends.

    Seeing her at post competition party - she has something crazy in her eyes. I wish to see that on the ice as well.
     
  8. love_skate2011

    love_skate2011 Well-Known Member

    1,624
    134
    63
    maybe go to Tutberidze ??? but I doubt she will take Tuk she already has Lip
    really sad Tuk probabaly wont be at the Olympics

    enough with the crap tangos and latin medleys for her programs :soapbox:
     
  9. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

    3,324
    805
    113
    I don't think Tutberidze would be worried about coaching two top girls competing against each other. She didn't mind in the past having Lipnitskaya and Shelepen. In a few years time she will have Lipnitskaya competing against Medvedeva (who still has to stay in juniors the next season). I think there is so many talented young ladies in Russia that sooner or later they will end up sharing a coach.

    In regards to Liza - I don't think it is Mishin's fault that her jumps are not consistent. She is a bit unfortunate with her figure (the puberty was quite unkind to her by giving her very curvy body with hips and boobs) and unfortunately that makes a lot of difference in skating. I am not suggesting that she should loose weight, but her figure is a huge disadvantage. The same way basketball players have advantage when they are tall, figure skaters have advantage when they have womanly curves. No matter who her next coach would be, they can't do anything about this.

    Re: Gachinsky, he had some problems last few years and lost his confidence. That can be very hard to get back and I wouldn't blame Mishin for his problems.
     
  10. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

    6,567
    276
    83
    Yeah it could be tuktamisheva and gachinski are blaming themselves for all their problems and not mishin for anything. so they would not leave and time for Sochi has nearly run out or is over for both and 2018 is so far away maybe they can fix themselves. Lipinski said skaters can be too quick to blame coaches but i don't believe it would be too quick for gachinski and tuktamisheva.
     
  11. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

    2,116
    198
    63
    Tuk is injured in the whole season.
     
  12. PairSk8Fan

    PairSk8Fan Banned Member

    330
    42
    0
    Both skaters have the Mishin team style imprinted on them, especially Artur, who often looks like a Plushenko-clone without the huge jumps or originality. It is kind of unusual to see the same style imprinted on a young female skater, but Liza is an obvious Mishin team production also.

    They could improve by studying with others, but I do not think Mishin allows that with his pupils, i.e. they stay within the team of coach, dance teacher, costumer, choreographer, etc. under Mishin's leadership.
     
  13. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

    6,567
    276
    83
    He allows outside choreographers to work with skaters but of course all that choreography goes away!
     
  14. misskarne

    misskarne #408

    6,395
    1,352
    113
    No, I don't believe they should. I believe Mishin is handling them both very well - much better than other coaches would. Never has he spoken a harsh word against either of them in public.

    Here are the main issues with both, that are NOT Mishin's fault:

    - Liza grew. She developed from a waify little girl into a mature young lady. That's always a problem no matter how you look at it.

    - Artur grew/got injured/suffered personal issues/and has some psychological issues, clearly, with his skating. That's not something Mishin can click his fingers and fix like magic. Artur's head was clearly messed with at Worlds 2012 and the bollocking he got from all levels of Russian skating - the bollocking that I notice precious little Kovtun was spared - can't have helped his mindset.

    You could argue that the packaging and choreography could be better. I personally love Artur's programs this season - the Buttle SP and the Yuri LP. The problem, of course, is that at present he is not able to skate them well. Liza has gone for a Latin theme again and sure it gets boring after a while but why not pick something she is comfortable with and enjoys for an Olympic season? She certainly sells them with more fire than some of the Russian girls can say.

    Both of them studied with Lambiel and Buttle over the last two off-seasons. To say that Mishin shuts off his skaters from those influences is to disrespect Mishin. He has been a much more supportive and caring coach for both of them over the last two seasons than a lot of other coaches would have been. I have no doubt that, say, Tarasova would have kicked Artur to the curb. Mishin believes in them. Now all he has to do is get Artur to believe in himself. I don't know how Liza's issues can be fixed. Time may be the only remedy.
     
  15. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

    8,203
    1,274
    113
    There is no indication that Mishin is the problem with their TES, so adding a choreographer would be better than leaving.
     
  16. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

    26,863
    4,039
    113
    I don't see how anyone can blame Mishin for their problems. Liza is still adjusting to her body changes and I heard she had hurt her back and she was considering withdrawing from COR. Gachinski lost confidence, (thanks to his fed for dumping him- sarcasm); his choreography is not the problem. Liza already has another coach that sits next to her, along with Mishin in the K&C. I don't think either should leave Mishin. They are both young and have plenty of time to work through whatever issues they have.
     
  17. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

    12,538
    1,318
    113
    Definitely. I hate Mishin's style...
    He is perfect to learn basic technique.
     
  18. Frau Muller

    Frau Muller President of Dick Button Appreciation Club

    8,047
    521
    113
    Tuk should go to Frank Carroll and skate for Kazakhstan...like Denis Ten did. This should be her goal for 2018-Korea Olympics. She is still very young and can do it. If Frank cannot take her on full-time, there's always Ken Congemi or other fine coaches on Team Carroll.
     
  19. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to JGPF & GPF!

    32,443
    4,821
    113
    Congemi coaches in Paramount, California now.

    I can't imagine Tuktamysheva or Gachinski ever leaving Russia to train abroad full-time.
     
  20. euterpe

    euterpe Well-Known Member

    11,907
    1,152
    113
    Liza went from a tiny birdlike girl to a very muscular, compact woman with ample hips, no defined waist and short, sturdy legs. She struggles with adapting her skating technique to her new physical reality, and it can't be easy. It's no wonder she has one injury after another. What I find charming about her is that she keeps smiling even when her skating isn't going well, and she has such a lovely smile.

    I don't know what to make of Gachinski. It's as if he has no confidence at all. He goes out there and you can almost hear him thinking 'well, here goes nothing' and it's a self-defeating prophecy. I cannot remember the last time I have seen this guy smile.

    Her problem is physical and his is mental. I'm not sure a new coach can solve either problem, and leaving Russia would probably be an even worse disaster for both of them.
     
    hanca and (deleted member) like this.
  21. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

    26,863
    4,039
    113
    This.

    Artur may need a sports psychologist. I don't know if he can ever recover mentally. I hope he does because he is so talented. I don't see how anyone can blame Mishin for his problems.

    Liza simply needs time to adjust to her new body. She is not the only compactly built skater. Slutskaya, Ito, Harding did not have lithe bodies and they used their power to their advantage, and Liza can do that, given enough time. It's just not going to happen this season. So everyone needs to be a little patient. Her jumps have power and she has a good jump techique. Mentally she is a fighter and does not give up on a program. Not every talented athlete has the mental toughness, so Liza could make it even in the highly competitive Russian fed.
     
  22. Loves_Shizuka

    Loves_Shizuka Gettin' my sass out

    12,609
    1,612
    113
    :lol: It is a superb name :cheer:

    :rofl: And what do you mean by THIS?! :p
     
  23. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

    20,569
    1,599
    113
    I think that there are two problems with Mishin.

    The first is that he thinks only jumps matter and he admits that. The result of that philosophy is Tuktamysheva and Gachinski really lacking in the PCS department, which gets reflected in their scores (and subjectively, their programs are simply terrible and I'd rather watch paint dry).

    The second is that from what I know, he's too focused on perfect jump technique. Whilst I would be the last person to advocate teaching bad jump technique which is not going to be sustainable in the long term (look under: very successful Junior skaters with no senior success) with this kind of 'all-or-nothing' approach, it might be hard to achieve consistency. Sometimes you need to cut skaters some slack and adapt so that you work out something which works for them, even if it isn't text-book.
     
  24. navire

    navire New Member

    52
    8
    0
    They need a skating skills specialist to work with them on the regular basis, idk whom, but finding someone ain't impossible. This may happen if Mishin shifts his priorities just a little bit.
    And they need a good physician, maybe Raitsin. Well, he's in Moscow, but at least he could consult them.
    And the thing I totally don't understand, why not send Tuktamysheva to Gachinski's designer?
     
  25. navire

    navire New Member

    52
    8
    0
    Arrrrgh. Sorry, but this gets me personal.
    He should not smile in his current programmes, they are serious and tragic.
    Off-ice he smiles enough. Anyway introvert people are just like this, do not smile much and that's normal. Not smiling all 32 teeth like in a toothpaste commercial doesn't mean one is terribly unhappy all the time.
    And Gachinski, although he was born in Moscow, is a true Petersburger, calm and reserved. Remember Menshov. Does he smile a lot?
     
  26. euterpe

    euterpe Well-Known Member

    11,907
    1,152
    113
    I was not referring to smiling during his programs, but afterward. I don't ever remember seeing a smile on his face. And yes, I can recall Menshov smiling and looking really happy, but I can't picture a happy Gachinski. It is sad to see such a young person looking so gloomy all the time.
     
  27. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

    12,538
    1,318
    113
    Maybe this is the problem. I know skating to fun musics can help getting consistency. Maybe he needs a music with joy and energy, instead of serious and tragic themes. ;)
     
  28. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

    26,863
    4,039
    113
    Does Mishin pick music for his skaters or they have some say in it? When a skater loves the music, usually it helps the skating (big exception: Elena-Anton; they sometimes hated the music they skated to- Tamara picked it for them-, but skated beautifully).
     
  29. navire

    navire New Member

    52
    8
    0
    He has no reason to look happy after skating badly. If he cringes, that means he cares.
    Previous season was awful, right, but now he looks mentally better. He jokingly apologized to the public after the FS in Moscow. And gave a funny interview to the official site.

    Once he had a cheerful FS. It was so funny and crazy one can burst into laughter just seeing the photos. And he won his Worlds bronze with it. But everybody said the choreo was idiotic. Well OK, no more idiotic choreos...
     
  30. misskarne

    misskarne #408

    6,395
    1,352
    113
    I haven't seen Artur smile at a competition since Euros 2012, and even then he wasn't smiling much. I don't think I've seen him smile at all after that - you can probably thank the Russian Fed for that. He does smile in his instagram photos.

    IIRC it was Artur who chose the Anna Karenina music. He loved it and had to persuade Mishin to let him do it, which Mishin duly did. Yuri Smekalov (sp?) is the choreographer.

    The Bolt is still my favourite LP of his. My favourite SP is his St Louis Blues one - that was also fun and lighthearted, and he skated it well.