Should Sotnikova Follow The Example of Asada & Kostner?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Maofan7, Dec 4, 2011.

  1. Maofan7

    Maofan7 Away

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    Right at the start of this season, it was my view that Mao Asada should dispense with the triple axel and focus upon her PCS and the rest of her technical content. Largely, she has done just that and she looks far more assured on the ice. Consequently, for the first time in 3 years she has made the grand prix final. Likewise, Carolina Kostner over the last 2 years has scaled down the difficulty of her technical content and focused more on her PCS and those technical elements that she feels more comfortable with. This has brought her enormous success.

    There is a lesson in all this for other skaters and it is that it is far better to focus on those elements that you can do and do them well, rather than to overstretch yourself on difficult elements that you cannot always pull off. I think this is something Adelina Sotnikova should seriously look at. In particular, I think she should dispense with the Triple Lutz Triple Loop combination and deploy a Triple Lutz Triple Toe Loop or Triple Flip Triple Toe Loop combination instead. Even during the 2010/11, she was coming unstuck with the 3Zx3L (e.g. Russian Nationals SP). This season, she has had enormous difficulties with that combination and it is clear that it has seriously eroded her confidence in the rest of her skating. She is also flutzing her Lutz - a problem she has always had. I just think that as she is having such a problem with that combination, that she should deploy a 3fx3t instead. That would remove the problem with the edge calls and by doing a toe instead of a loop, that would make the combination far more stable. Furthermore, by deploying a combination that she feels more comfortable with, that would restore her own self confidence in the rest of her skating.

    Like Asada and Kostner, Sotnikova is a fantastic all-around skater and I think that by scaling back the technical difficulty and focusing more on her PCS and those technical elements she knows that she do well, she will have far more success. Just as Asada doesn't need the Triple Axel to win, nor does Sotnikova need the 3Zx3L combination.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2011
  2. koatcue

    koatcue New Member

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    I think it will be easier for her to make 3f-3l actually...so she won't get an edge call on her comb.she is flutzing - that's a problem:(
    But she is just 15!She is a remarkable talent,so she'll be better in future=)
     
  3. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    The difference between Kostner+Asada and Sotnikova is, that Kostner and Asada can afford to do so. Sotnikova can't yet. Kostner and Asada will receive a high PCS mark, because their skating is great even if there is not as hard technical content. Sotnikova doesn't have the name yet and is still young, so the judges will hold back with her second mark. And I think rightly so. Sotnokova grew a lot since last year, and her basic skating suffered a bit. She doesn't glide on the ice as lightly as she did last year. I am sure as soon as she adjust to her new body, she will be fine, but at the moment she will have to push the technical mark because if she lowers her standards, her PCS won't keep her up.

    Another thing to consider, Adelina is competing not only on the world stage, but also among a number of very talented girls within Russia. So if she lowers her technical difficulty, she could be beaten at home and it may result in her not being sent to the international competitions.

    Besides, if she just hangs on for a while, she will adjust with her body, so lowering her jump content would in my view do more harm. She needs to practice this hard content and compete with it, not put it on the back burner and hope that without practising and competing with it, it will get better on its own. It won't, she needs to keep doing it. But she is a fighter; she will be alright!
     
  4. nyskatefan

    nyskatefan Active Member

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    I agree with this whole-heartedly!

    I think it would be especially wise for someone like Mirai. Forget about the lutz and all the edge/UR calls. Just do the triples that are comfortable. That would allow lots of time/effort to focus on skating skills, program components, etc.
    It has worked beautifully for Carolina. Her whole skating experience has improved, and clearly the judges have spoken loudly that they are willing to give good marks for things done well, and do not seem inclined to punish skaters who do not have the entire jump arsenal in their programs.

    I truly believe all coaches should take a lesson here and not keep putting their skaters out there trying to do things that consistently go badly. It might be nice to see more programs performed well ... even though there would be an overall decrease in the degree of difficulty. Seems like a good swap to me!
     
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  5. TAHbKA

    TAHbKA Well-Known Member

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    I remember reading in one of the interviews Sotnikova finds it easier to do a loop as a second jump rather than toeloop - the loop requires less speed in her case. Will try to find the interview later...
     
  6. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    :confused:

    Ok, on my planet, this is what happened: Mao always got good pcs. Once they started getting all anal about edges and ur, she dumped the lutz and 3/3. Now she needed the 3x more than ever to beat yuna. So she because obsessed with landing the difficult jump, and would make other mistakes or get stressed out. She didn't win 2 world champs and an oly silver because the judges gave her low pcs. Now that yuna is out and its not the olys, she isn't focusing on the 3x so much and actually breathes during her programs.

    Caro is injured and can't land the 3z. It will probably come back when she's better. She's also always gotten high pcs. But she is skating cleaner now.

    As for Adelina, skaters usually focus on what they do well. I wouldn't assume she can more easily land the 3f/3t just because it's easier on paper. Why do you think all of those guys with strong 3z are trying 4z instead of the "easier" 4r or 4f? Skaters usually build upon their strengths. They also usually work on all things together. During Kwans "big transformation" in 96, she didn't just improve pcs drastically, she also introduced the 3/3 for the first time in her programs. Even when she was a 4 time world champ and ogm fav, she was trying new 3/3s, not dumping the old ones.

    06 may have made people think safe and clean could win the olys under cop, but 10 meant just the opposite.
     
  7. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    Mao, Carolina or not, Adelina should stop trying 3Lz/3L. Because her Flutz is too much. She should focus on 3F/3L, and work on fixing her Lutz.
     
  8. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    She used to do a beautiful 3sal/3loop and it seemed pretty consistent. It's still a big point-getter and a combo she knows, so I think she should revive it. She did at least learn after CoC not to repeat the flutz and do two flips instead.
     
  9. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

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    TAHbKA had linked an article where Adelina's growth spurt was discussed. She definitely has done some growing since her last season. Shouldn't Team Adelina wait and see what happens and how she eventually responds to her new body and then make decisions accordingly?

    Things seem to be too much in flux right now. She is not going to Worlds so I don't see what the rush would be.
     
  10. bek

    bek Guest

    This might be a good idea and then she could do the 3flip for a solo jump. I really don't think Adelina should give up on the lutz, or hard combos altogether. Shes' far too talented of a jumper to limit herself that way.
     
  11. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Absolutely. Something like this would work:

    short program

    3sal3loop
    steps into 3flip
    2axel

    or 3flip3toe
    steps into 3loop
    2axel

    free skate

    3sal3loop
    3lutz
    2axel3toe

    3flip2toe2loop
    3loop
    3flip
    2axel
     
  12. koatcue

    koatcue New Member

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    is flip an easier jump?i thought lutz and flip are very similar...
     
  13. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    The Lutz jump is not on the same circle as the take off. The Flip is. ;)
     
  14. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Sasha

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    The lutz jump rotation is in the opposite direction (anticlockwise, for a right handed skater) to the take off (left outside edge, which is a clockwise movement), so it's easy to see why a flutz (getting on the inside edge just before jumping) would occur. For a flip, you start on the left outside 3-turn, which gets you on the inside edge before you do the jump. So at least thoeretically the lutz should be easier than the flip. However, it depends on the skater. For some the flip is more difficult (they get on the outside edge instead of the inside, like Sokolova, for example, who had a very bad 'lip' instead of a flip).
     
  15. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Sasha

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    Back to the topic of Sotnikova and the OP, I think it's too early to compare Adelina with Mao and Carolina. She has really not accomplished anything yet. Mao has a track record of landing the 3A-2t combination which no other lady was/is doing. Carolina was able to do all triples except the 3A. Both have won multiple world medals. We will have to see what works for Adelina and how far she can go before talking about the diluting her jump content the way Mao has done recently (and I have no doubt she will get back her 3A at some point), and the way Carolina had to, due to her injury.
     
  16. Autumn_girl

    Autumn_girl Active Member

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    Adelina said in the interview that she is working on different 3-3s and learning 3F-3T because she wants to be able to change combos in her programs for different competitions and 3T in the end puts less pressure on her leg than 3Lo. But 3Lo as the second jump is easier for her than 3T (except 2A-3T combo)
     
  17. floskate

    floskate Vacant

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    I seem to remember Mao not doing the triple axel early in the 2007-08 season. In fact her jump layouts were pretty conservative for her until she turned up at the GPF, bombed the SP and then stormed the long with a 3x and two different 3-3's. I think Mao will definitely try the triple axel later in the season which will mean she would be attempting all 6 triple jumps. Considering hardly any of the girls can do the usual five cleanly, her attempting 6 (with a likely flutz admittedly) isn't really scaling back on tech content, rather re-distributing the TES points if you like ;)
     
  18. Louis

    Louis Tinami 2012

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    For me, Sotnikova has some of the ugliest triple-triple combinations I've ever seen. Her triple flutz-squat-triple loop deserves -3 even when it's clean, and the double axel-lean over-triple toe maybe -2. If she were American, we'd never hear the end of it :drama:.

    OTOH, Tukt (not even going to attempt to spell it) has some of the prettiest triple-triple combinations I've ever seen. Her technique, IMO, is a million times better, and her limitations will be easier to address in the long-term.
     
  19. NMURA

    NMURA Member

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    At least, Asada has never abandoned the 3A. She says "definitely going for the 3A at the Final." Let's see how things work out.
     
  20. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    I definitely disagree. Yes, Adelina has a flutz, but her jumps MUCH bigger than Elizaveta's and she carries more speed in and out of them. Her landing positions are also strong and well-extended as opposed to that hunched over lowered back that we see with Tukt.

    I don't know what you mean about her 2a/3t. The technique and the height and flow are out of this world!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Utt253GRpCA#t=1m52s

    THAT deserves a -2? In what universe??
     
  21. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

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    Do you mean what we are seeing from her now or last season? Or both? Because some technique has definitely unraveled this season.
     
  22. love_skate2011

    love_skate2011 Well-Known Member

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    reagrding Adelina's flutz she has always done that most of the time
    and not just because she doesnt get an edge call for that at comp.
    she needs to change her technique and she still has huge time to improve
    she is only 15

    but for the meantime I agree she needs to keep trying with her
    Triple Lutz Triple Loop, she will get into that soon, remember
    she had deal with both a growth spurt and huge pressure
    hopefully by next season that will ease into her progress

    she grew a lot but she'll be fine.
    Adelina has already survived her 1st growth spurt back in 2009
    its too early to always compare Adelina with Elizaveta as both are too young
    anything can still happen, although my prediction for the long run
    with regards to the improvements Adelina will surpass Lisa !
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2011
  23. koatcue

    koatcue New Member

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    Why do you think her jumps are so bad? This season has just started...Maybe her injury influenced the quality of her skating + pressure, but we can't say she deserves -3 for her jumps,especially clean ones
     
  24. Louis

    Louis Tinami 2012

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    Does the visible squat leading into the triple loop not bother anyone else?

    Or the hunching forward to pick in for the triple toe?

    IMO, her technique is as jarring as Caroline Zhang's mule kick. The jump is nice in the air, but the takeoff is awful and the landing often wobbles from outside edge to inside edge.

    Maybe it's just me. :confused:
     
  25. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

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    I am going to pay closer attention but do you have any specific programs where it's really evident, Louis? If so, could you please link? Thanks.
     
  26. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Sasha

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    Those flaws are not deserving of -3GOE. I have seen a lot worse.
     
  27. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    I don't like her Flip take off because her edge trembles (same for her Flutz, she is not at all comfortable with the left leg's edges).
    Her jumping technique is far from being perfect. But I have no big problems with her 2Axel combo. ;)
    I agree that the air position and the landing are beautiful.
     
  28. Louis

    Louis Tinami 2012

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    The flutz + the squat + off-kilter air position + usually some level of underrotation should warrant -3, IMO. No better than -2.

    The double axel-triple toe, I'll say in the example given that the good qualities of the jump (height, distance) do offset the problems with it, and I'd probably give it a 0 GOE. But I'd question positive GOE for a jump that's off-axis, has a labored takeoff, and a wobbly landing edge.

    I don't dislike Sotnikova. I just think she has major technique problems that are getting glossed over. In addition to the combination issues, she has hammer-throwing technique on the flip and a really weird arm position on the salchow takeoff. I suspect these will continue to cause her problems as she grows.

    OTOH, Tutk - who is not (yet) as good of a skater and has programs that do not maximize her potential - has jumps that mostly belong in an instructional video. I'd put her triple lutz-triple toe up against any that has been done, ever.
     
  29. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Sasha

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    We are talking about 14 & 15 year olds here. Why are they being held to such a high standard when skaters much older than them have their flaws as well?
     
  30. koatcue

    koatcue New Member

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    I think it has already affected her.Lately she had her 2d growth spurt.You can see the result(