Should previous year's results be factored in to US 4CC assignments?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by haribobo, Feb 5, 2012.

Should top 10 at Worlds supersede Nationals results for a 4CC spot?

  1. Never

    14 vote(s)
    14.9%
  2. Only in case of equipment failure or illness

    16 vote(s)
    17.0%
  3. Sometimes- depending on GP and other results and Nationals

    40 vote(s)
    42.6%
  4. Only if that top 10 skater medaled at Worlds

    12 vote(s)
    12.8%
  5. Always

    12 vote(s)
    12.8%
  1. haribobo

    haribobo Well-Known Member

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    With all the Ricky vs. Armin 4CC assignment arguments, curious to know what feelings people have about counting the previous year's results, in all cases? Are you in favor of a case-by-case basis? Would you have more clearly outlined criteria- and if so what should they be? Top 10 at Worlds guarantees you alternate spot X? Top 5 guarantees you Y? Medal guarantees Z?
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2012
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  2. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

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    I think it should be decided on a case-by-case basis. For example, I see why they did it in the Dornbush situation, rewarding Dornbush for coming in the top 10 at the Worlds last year by giving him the spot over Armin. However, this contradicts their previous decision to send Dornbush, Bradley and Miner to worlds instead of Abbott, Rippon, and one of those, due to Nationals results. I think the USFSA, regardless of my personal opinion on the matter, needs to pick one (decide by Nationals results or be more subjective) and STICK with it. Easier said than done though..
     
  3. DORISPULASKI

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

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    If they're going to have a sekret committee pick the world and 4CC's teams, they need to replace Nationals with a nice exhibition. What's the point, if it is not a selection process for Worlds/Olympics/4CCs? Have the preselected skaters each skate an exhibition routine and introduce the world team to a crowd consisting of their parents. Have some official read off the rationalization for the selection of each team member. It would at least be honest.

    If they want to take previous stuff into account (and that's something I don't support), at least, have a fixed formula so the skaters know where they stand. Then they can choose or not choose to skate at Nationals. Why go for the expense if it is going to be meaningless in the end?

    The Dornbush selection sucks. If Dornbush were a medallist on the GP or at Worlds it would be a little bit different (and I would still not support it). But he wasn't. He won the JGPF last year. Whoopie. Jason Brown won the JGPF this year, and he was higher than 13th.

    This is the USFS that did not send the previous year's world's bronze medallist (Weir) to any post nationals internationals in 2009, in a year when Weir was recovering from illness, and finished a lot higher than 13th. This crap is all BS, and they should be ashamed of themselves.
     
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  4. attyfan

    attyfan Well-Known Member

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    I have heard that the USFS avoids strict rules making Nats the qualifiers for Olys, so they don't have to split the money with the USOC. Could there be something similar with the ISU, so the USFS doesn't want Nats to be the strict qualifier for Worlds or 4CCs?
     
  5. Wyliefan

    Wyliefan Well-Known Member

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    Obviously I'm biased here. But I would submit that people complain when they stick strictly to the "send the top finishers at Nationals to Worlds" rule, and people also complain when they're more flexible with their 4CC choices. So they'll get complaints no matter what they do.
     
  6. stevlin

    stevlin Member

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    I feel Ricky deserves a chance. OK he had a lousy sp. But look at his stats over the year. He won the silver medal at 2011 Nationals plus he won the free program. He went to Worlds and placed 9th I believe and was the top finishing American there. Also he was 4th at Skate America [not bad for a 1st timer there], 6th at China. Now last year he was silver medalist at Nats. but did not get sent to 4cc. Why? Armin got to go. So, The USFSA makes the choice. We don't so arguing about it gets us no where. International judges are familiar with his name and skating.
     
  7. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Sure. I think the bigger federations should adopt a weighted point qualification system ala Japan in 2006 for world team selection to 4CCs, Jr Worlds and Worlds. To send Miner instead of Abbott to Worlds last year was, well, rigid strategy. Still, Nationals should have a lot of weight or else it would lose its purpose.

    Up and comers with nothing to lose aim to peak at Nationals whereas the veterans who plan on going to 4CCs, Jr Worlds and Worlds often plan to peak later. If Nationals was the ONLY decider in assignments, it may create a bit of a problem or somehow force the higher competitors to peak at the wrong time.
     
  8. Tak

    Tak Well-Known Member

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    I said no because this is exactly how Miki got picked for the Torino Olympic team over Yukari, who was skating so much better that entire season. Yukari was injured the previous season - that put her at at great disadvantage when the previous season was taken into account.

    Many times, success in one season doesnt carry over to the next. I think each season should be looked at individually. Who's doing well NOW - not who did well last year.
     
  9. haribobo

    haribobo Well-Known Member

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    I agree, and the Miki over Yukari decision WAS very annoying because Yukari was doing so much better the whole season. Ricky, however, is not the Miki Ando in this situation, because his GP results were good and his free skate at Nationals was quite good also.

    Anyway, in response to another post, I think to say that Nationals results don't count for anything because of a couple adjustments by the international committee is silly. Obviously all the top finishers got selected for Worlds- not a single 1st-3rd place finisher was left off the world team if there were 3 places.

    The 3 main aberrations were Ricky at 4CC, C/S leapfrogging D/S on the Worlds alternates (unnecessary and annoying IMO but I sorta get it), and Rachael Flatt being left off the Worlds alternates list which doesn't bother me after last year's shenanigans. Also a bit of a nice nod to Mirai at the same time.

    I personally would LOVE them to come out with some kind of formula that takes into account all kinds of things. But that formula would have to also account for a magical Rudy moment or something similar where a skater comes out of Sectionals and just has a magnificent skate of their life at Nationals. :kickass: If for example, Max Aaron came out and skated like Regionals and landed a quad and a ton of triples in his FS and had finished top 2, I'd hate to see him left off the World team due to the fact that he had no GP events this year. I'm thrilled that Marley/Brubaker could come out and win the SP like that and do well in the FS also to shock everyone and make the World team even though they looked pretty rough at Skate America. Same thing with Castile/Okolski's dominance at 2007 Nationals. It just felt so great to see them rise up at Nationals at the time. I guess my feeling with the men is that the top 3 had their act together and everyone else was a bit of a mixed bag. So I'm not shocked or upset that things happened the way they did. Plug Armin's Avatar FS from Skate America 2010 in to Nationals rather than that very boring program he actually did and it would have made all the difference. That Kill Bill program totally sunk him IMO.

    Bottom line: THE SKATING MATTERS. As it should.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2012
  10. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    I think that one competition shouldn't be solely used to keep a skater from another competition for whatever reason. It will always come back to bite a federation in the ass if they don't take other competitions into consideration. If they use such strict guidelines like whoever wins nationals moves on to Olympics, 4CC, Europeans or World, no exceptions, they may end up regretting their decision by keeping their best skaters home because they had a bad night.
     
  11. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

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    My personal opinion: I think the top three at Nationals should go to Worlds (or Olys), period. And I stick to that even if it leaves out my favorite skaters.

    Why? Because Nationals is a pressure event (assuming that a spot on the Worlds or Oly team is on the line). I believe that skaters should be able to deliver when it counts. If they can't do that, why should they be given special treatment? (Exception: a situation like Nancy Kerrigan's in '94.)

    Besides, put yourself in the position of the person who delivered when it counted, yet got booted for a favored skater who blew it. Discouraging doesn't even begin to describe it.

    For that matter, maybe and Worlds and Olympics should have the competition, take a look at the results and then assign the medals to the skaters, based on the year's performances instead of the actual competition.
     
  12. DORISPULASKI

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

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    If Ricky skates a short like he did at Nationals, then he won't make the LP. In fact, if you want a third member for a team at Worlds, their most important job as a team member, rather than as a skater skating for themselves is to score well in the short so that they qualify for the long.

    Armin was 3rd in the short with 80.66. Ricky was 17th with 51.59 points. Ricky was not sick or injured. He was that bad. He was worse than Rachael Flatt skating on a broken leg (she scored 57.22 at Worlds last year). His TES was 19.73. He didn't rotate his jumps-he popped 2 of the 3 to singles. His PCS was pure bleeding heart gift. He should have been worse than 51.59.

    The lowest SP by a man at Worlds was Misha Ge of UZB, and he had higher TES than Ricky Dornbush at nationals, 22.80. Needless to say, it was irrelevant how he did in the LP, because he was not going to get to skate it.

    So if you're going to give a prize for bombing at Nationals, at least give it to a skater who saves their bombing for the LP. Many skaters have had a respectable career acing the SP and bombing the LP. The reverse doesn't happen. The skater is at the very bottom of the list and goes nowhere.
     
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  13. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    It's probably a difficult choice and I don't have any problem with Richard going.
    But it's not as if Richard and Armin have been close at US Nats. There, we have Armin in 4th and Richard in 13th. Of course, Richard finished ahead in the LP, but a competition is about both programs.
     
  14. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    In an ideal world, I'd like to see the U.S. send the top three eligible finishers in each discipline at Nationals to Four Continents (assuming they want to go) and have the next three, in order, be the alternates. However, I can see the case for having some flexibility with respect to the alternates. How much flexibility? I'm not sure. I think I would rather have seen Dornbush be named as the third alternate than the first one.
     
  15. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

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    For the 4CC selection, I would like to see weight percentages assigned to each competition.

    For example, US nationals 60% (it is the most pressure filled competition), 20% to the highest scoring GP, and 20% for previous year's worlds, if the skater made it; otherwise for previous year's 4CC. If a skater did not make it to either one, and did not participate in the GPs, 100% marks would be based on US nationals.

    For worlds, I think the top 3 spots should get automatic berths.
     
  16. Seerek

    Seerek Well-Known Member

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    I don't mind using a weighted average methodology to determine the spots - but would this mean that the raw scores from the events would be applied? or perhaps the placements or ISU points earned?
     
  17. Jessica

    Jessica Active Member

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    Doris,

    ITA. You put down in writing everything that's been running through my head. I really feel bad for Armin and can understand why he would be upset. I'm really pissed at the USFSA.
     
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  18. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

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    Why should FS have the luxury of selecting teams (regardless of results) when other sports don't?

    Unless I'm mistaken (I suppose I could be), sports such as track and field, swimming--not to mention team sports--send to Worlds, Olys, etc., the top three, period.

    Yes, I realize that FS is a different sport from those I've mentioned. But it doesn't change the fact that the athletes of those sports have to turn it out when it COUNTS, otherwise they don't go.

    Why can't skaters just fricking skate well at pressure events, to earn their spots? Isn't that what's EXPECTED of great athletes in other sports?? And we wonder my so many sports fans consider FS a joke...

    Rant over.
     
  19. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

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    What's really bad about this whole thing is Dornbush is the FIRST alternate, thus ensuring that he goes to the 4CC, because quite often at least one of the medal winners does not go to 4CC. Why so much love by the USFSA for Dornbush? Just because he had a great skate last year?
     
  20. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure what team sports you're thinking of. Team sports such basketball, soccer, baseball, softball, and volleyball have more than three members on a team and, of necessity, the selection process for the Olympics and World Championships is highly subjective. It's usually even more subjective in judged sports, especially those that have a team competition, like gymnastics.
     
  21. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

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    Okay, I withdraw my comparison to team sports. But I stand by the rest of my post. :p
     
  22. Conga

    Conga New Member

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    I still think that Armin should have been 1st Alternate and, therefore, going to 4CC, but I have to agree that the Avatar program was far superior to Kill Bill. It didn't suit him well.
     
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  23. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    Upon further consideration, I think finishing nineteenth at the previous season's U.S. Nationals ought to earn one a place on the team. :shuffle:
     
  24. Michalle

    Michalle New Member

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    My issue with this was that it would be one thing if Armin was 4th and Ricky was 6th or something (although I know many would still have had a problem with that too) but it's especially egregious to send someone who came in 13th. I think it's one thing to take previous results into account to some extent, but this is just like ignoring Nationals altogether.
     
  25. DORISPULASKI

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

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    And the result is someone who who finished 14th in the LP at 4CC's, with the third lowest TES in the event, with only Mark Webster & Jeremy Ten lower.
     
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  26. haribobo

    haribobo Well-Known Member

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    Well now that things have unfolded as they did, I think USFS committee has learned a good lesson. I don't think they've ever done something like this before nor are they likely to do it again anytime soon. Still think Ricky's spot was partially justified by 1) his good FS at Nationals, 2) his pretty good SB score, and 3) his strong finish at Worlds season, but logistically it seems that Ricky maybe wasn't mentally at his best after Nationals nor does it sound like he was prepared for altitude. Armin's training in Co Springs probably could've come in handy for him here. But, maybe this will provide more incentive for Armin to get a better FS next year and also work towards stronger skates at his international events so he is more seriously considered in the future. The world will keep on spinning as long as everyone is learning from their mistakes.
     
  27. DORISPULASKI

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

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    I absolutely agree that learning from mistakes is necessary.

    Both for federations, skaters, and fans.
     
  28. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Unfortunate outcome.

    But seriously - last year they went with the Nationals result, left Abbott home and lost their 3rd spot. This year they took everything into consideration, made Dornbush the 1st alternate and he didn't deliver when he got to go.

    I actually think they did the right thing this time. It's just an unfortunate outcome. If he had made top 5 somehow, people would be over it already. :p
     
  29. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    ^apples and oranges IMO.
     
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  30. DORISPULASKI

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

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    The difference was sending the 3rd vs the 4th place guy last year, with about 6 weeks for the 4th place guy to get in shape.

    This year, it's the 4th place guy vs the 13th place guy with about a week and a half to get in shape. Plus the event is where the 4th place guy trains at altitude, and the 13th guy trains nearer sea level.

    If you want to know what they should have done last year in my silly opinion:

    Bradley-send him to Worlds (winner always goes in the US)
    Dornbush-send him to Jr. Worlds to win the title & 4CCs for senior experience
    Miner-ineligible for Jr Worlds; send him to Worlds & 4CCs, because he needed senior experience in prep for Worlds
    Abbott- send him to Worlds & 4CCs, if he wants 4CCs. If not, send Bradley to 4CCs, or Rippon to 4CC's.

    But that was a solution no one considered. And it would have been better for all the skaters, except Armin who was 6th. Armin probably should have been first alternate at both Worlds & 4CCs in this scenario.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2012