Should IJS change how jumps are valued for ladies.

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by bek, Jan 31, 2012.

  1. bek

    bek Guest

    While its clear the mens doing quads is rewarded big time; I think one could argue that ladies having the harder triples/doing them isn't really rewarded. This is not a hit on any skater; but rather what can be done in the future. I think perhaps their should be a more different scaled value for the women than there is for the men.

    Also I really think combinations aren't rewarded enough. I mean they are rewarded big time in the short program; but I think there needs to be something more for doing them in the long. One thing I can't help thinking is why not say that as long as they aren't repeating the same combination and with a limit of only three combinations; why not say that men AND women can repeat a triple at the end of a combination without being affected by the rule. (And do a 3toe on its own).

    This would encourage girls (and guys) to go for 3/3/3 combinations again in competition. And reward having the harder combos.
     
  2. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    I think it would get cumbersome to have different jump value tables for men and women. I also do not think the rule should be changed to let skaters keep sticking triple toe loops on the back of half their jumps.

    To me, the place the rules/scoring need to be changed is to better reward skaters (men and women) for showing us all 6 different jump takeoffs. Before COP, all the top ladies did (or at least attempted) a triple lutz, flip, loop, salchow and toeloop. The judges simply expected and demanded it. I think the ISU needs to adjust the scoring somehow so that skaters looking at the podium know they can't get there on just 3 or 4 different triples.

    This could be done pretty easily. They could either add six different takeoffs to the balanced program rule or simply award a point bonus for programs with triples using all 6 takeoffs (less the 3A for ladies). Another possibility would be employing a multiplier to reduce the value of any repeated jump. For example, the second time it is used, the jump would be worth only 80% of its table value.
     
  3. aliceanne

    aliceanne Well-Known Member

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    I would like to see the women rewarded more on the basis of the height of and distance covered by their jumps rather than added revolutions. You see tiny little girls doing tiny little jumps that don't cover any ice, then when they grow, they are finished. Tiny jumps don't add much excitement to skating, and when the skaters burn out so quickly they don't have time to develop presentation skills.
     
  4. nlyoung

    nlyoung Active Member

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    But this penalizes those who are simply smaller or not as strong. For some girls, higher jumps come naturally, and it's not always an indication of technique. There is already a reward for those skaters with bigger jumps and I don't think this needs to be increased.
     
  5. mag

    mag Well-Known Member

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    I would like to see jump sequences get 100% value of both jumps and jump combination get 110 or 120% value. That would encourage using the harder triples in combinations because the reward would be larger. Right now, a 3T/3T and a solo 3Lz has the same value as a 3Lz/3T and a solo 3T. It would also be great if it could be worked out so that if the second jump in the combo had more revolutions than the first jump there was some sort of bonus. I'm not sure how that would work within the whole context of the scale of values though ... it could throw things out of whack.

    I also like the idea of a bonus for all all six take-offs, but there would need to be very clear rules about the quality of the jumps in order to get the bonus.
     
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  6. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    I'm not for the change of base value of jumps alone, but I definitely think a 3/3 combo should be rewarded more : *1.1 for example.
    Because it's clear that doing a 3F/3T is harder than doing a 3F and a 3T.
     
  7. kwanette

    kwanette Fetalized since 1998

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    I'd like to see doing a complete arsenal of jumps rewarded before the lutz goes the way of high-button shoes.
     
  8. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    "Again"? When has any girl ever done a 3-3-3 combination in competition?

    I can't remember any guy other than van der Perren doing one either.



    In general, I'd like to see bonus multiplier for the second (or third) jump in a combination.

    My proposal for variety of takeoffs was 2.0 bonus for six different takeoffs with 2 or more revolutions, 4.0 bonus for six different takeoffs with 3 or more revolutions. (For ladies, the 4.0 bonus could include double axel, i.e., 2.5 or more revolutions.) Jumps count toward the bonus if the GOE is -1 or higher and no edge call or downgrade <<. I think we could allow jumps with underrotation < if the rest of the jump was good enough to score no worse than -1.
     
  9. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    I had always wondered why COP does not reward jump combinations, particularly difficult ones, like 3L-3t or 3f-3R and so on. A combination is so much more difficult than those jumps done separately. I definitely like your idea of a 20% bonus for difficult combinations (f,L,A with either t or R) and 10% bonus for easier combinations (3t-3t).

    I think it would create too many complications if men and womens jumps had different values. I would like to see them stay the same but something needs to be done to encourage women to do difficult jumps (solo and in combination). Right now the ladies discipline has regressed to the 1980's jumpwise. In 1992 they were doing triple axel combinations, 3L3t combinations to set themselves apart from the rest of the field. Now the focus seems to be (once again) being pretty princesses on ice.
     
  10. cygnus

    cygnus Liberal Furry

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    Kevin Reynolds -(3F-3t-3L) landed at Canadian nationals.
     
  11. bek

    bek Guest

    Their were ladies practicing it back in the day. Arakawa to name one; I believe Irina. Now thanks to this scoring system; what's the point?

    The men were certainly going for it/flirting with it. I remember Yags/Plush were practicing it. Plush attempted it; now once again not rewarded.

    I think its extremely sad that there's no encouragement to do difficult combinations. The 3axel/3toe use to be standard for men; now not so much either.
     
  12. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    But they never tried it in competition. And at least one current lady (Gracie Gold) has been practicing one recently. Most cutting-edge jump content takes a long time to make it from practice ice to competition even one first time let alone consistently. Compare practice to practice and there isn't much difference.

    That particular combination became standard in the mid-90s when enough guys were able to use it as their short program jump combination to maximize SP content. Then just a few years later it started to become less common beginning in 1998-99 when the men were allowed to do solo triple axel instead of double axel in the SP, and allowed to do quads as the solo jump. By the time quad combinations were allowed in the SP in early 2000s, 3A+3T had become much less popular because it wasn't as useful in the SP in the last years of 6.0.

    If you started requiring solo double axel and forbidding quads in the SP again, you'd see lots of 3A+3T there again. ;)
     
  13. mag

    mag Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure it is the fault of the scoring system. More a result of having the technology available to check the rotation on jumps. Remember when kids were taught to always get up from a fall in a landing position - just in case a judge missed the fall? Not likely to have happened at the international level, but there were lots of cheated triples out there that passed as clean jumps. If you only had to do 2.5 rotations on the 3loop as the second jump, you would be more likely to try it.
     
  14. BigB08822

    BigB08822 Well-Known Member

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    I think the men and women can have the same values for jumps but they still need to be changed. Something needs to be done in order to give more value to the loop, flip and lutz. IMO. Isn't the 3loop only 1 point more than a salchow? It SEEMS to be harder than that. The salchow and toe are the jumps a lot of people get when they first begin doing triples but a lot of people never get past those. I also think about how we always see pairs doing SBS toes and salchows but hardly ever the other jumps. The jumps seem to get much harder starting with the loop and the points do not reflect that, IMO.

    I think it is very possible that 2 of this year's World's medalists will be competing with content that was par for the course in the mid 80's. Why? Because they can win/medal by doing so. The COP is encouraging this and until it changes ladies skating will be seen as a joke.
     
  15. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    There needs to be bigger point differences. The point difference between a triple toe and a triple lutz is only 1.9 points now, which is outrageous. On top of that, the flip has a point value closer to the loop, which is also ridiculous considering most senior ladies can't even do the flip.
     
  16. aliceanne

    aliceanne Well-Known Member

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    It is a sport. A teeny tiny girl hopping straight up into 3 rotations 2 inches off the ice is not an indication of technique either, which is why so many of them flame out when they start to grow.
     
  17. iarispiralllyof

    iarispiralllyof Active Member

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    imo, we shouldn't even encourage 3-3-3's until 3-3's have been more widely perfected. irina and arakawa are great jumpers but even their 3-3's were often sloppy or under-rotated. yuna kim's 3-3's are magnificently consistent. i don't think we should jump the shark

    i think more points should be given to skaters who attempt at least 5 types of triples. it seems this is a general consensus on here too
     
  18. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    ??? Both were practicing these combinations DURING CoP...
     
  19. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    Or... We could make the rule again saying that women are required to attempt all five triples...
     
  20. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    I've suggested this in other threads, but I think the ISU should rotate the solo jump for the sp in seniors like they do in juniors. They should give the option to do a double, but it would be a great incentive for senior ladies to keep practicing their least favorite triples since the point difference for a double instead of a triple in the sp could really hurt them in the standings. It would also bring back some of the "do-or-die" feel that the sp used to have.
     
  21. MR-FAN

    MR-FAN Kostner Softie

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    Judging from Tukt's TES marks at the GP this season, and Polina at Euros a couple of days ago, I'd say difficult jump content is being rewarded. In TES. COP gives value to choreography, presentation, skating skills, transitions, etc... in the PCS. You can't be a jumping bean and expect to win anymore. Carolina has been winning competitions left and right with a reduced technical arsenal, but look at the scores. She's always hovering around 120s, it's just that there's noone to challenge her at this time. We've seen what jump content and artistry can do (scores in the 150s, 140s, and 130s for women) and if someone has the PCS that say Kostner or Alissa get AND the content of the 3-3-russian-youngsters, they WILL outscore the ladies with reduced technical content. There just isn't, and in a system that tries to strike a balance between technical difficulty and skating skills/artistry, I'd say all the wins of Alissa, Mao and Kostner this season are well deserved.

    I'm a big fan of COP, but I still there's a lot of fixing needed for it. It's way better than back in 2004, but there's still more work to be done. And I also think the way elements are valued and scored needs reform, but I don't aggree the reforms need to be approached from a "lets reward difficult jumps" point of view. Boring zombies doing quads and 3-3s with barely any flow or choreography isn't the answer
     
  22. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    Whilst everyone is being judged under the same criteria, I am not sure why making the values for each element that a woman does compared to a man is going to change anything. And what sort of motivation does it provide? It is like adult skaters complaining that they should be judged easier because they are adults and it is harder for them to learn to skate.

    You do a big jump, you get credit for a big jump. Do a tiny jump and you will get it consider as a tiny jump. If the tiny jump is fully rotated it will still get the full value of the element.
     
  23. BigB08822

    BigB08822 Well-Known Member

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    I love the idea of rotating the triple in the SP. Change the rule so it can be a double, though. Also, only rotate between loop, flip and lutz. I don't want to see people doing toes and salchows as the solo jump.
     
  24. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    There never was such a rule before. You could make such a rule for the very first time.
     
  25. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

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    What about an sp requirement of the solo jump and the first jump of the combination being opposite type jumps? One has to be toe assisted and the other an edge jump. Or they could make it a bit easier to enforce and say that one of the three non-axel jumps must be an edge jump.

    On a somewhat related note, I've been thinking that the women should only have 6 jumping passes. Men currently have 8 to the women's 7, but they get an extra 30 seconds for that one jumping pass. Yes, they have two step sequences, and step sequences are more exhausting than spirals, but one of the step sequences is not for awarded levels.

    It just seems strange to me that ladies have to cram 4 additional jumping passes in just 1:20 from sp to lp, while men get 1:50 to fit in 5 additional passes.

    With 6 jumping passes, but keeping 3 combos including the 3 jump combination, there would be a huge reward for 3-3 combos, and incentive for a 3-3-3. In terms of exciting jumps, I think the future of women's skating is in combinations. Most women aren't going to be able to do triple axels.
     
  26. BigB08822

    BigB08822 Well-Known Member

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    Only a few women can land 3/3 combinations cleanly, how many 3/3/3 combinations do you expect to see? I don't want to outlaw it or anything, if you can do it then more power to you, but limiting the jumping passes even further will probably NOT result in 3/3/3 combinations. Maybe someone will try one here or there but good luck getting all 3 jumps rotated. It will result in even BIGGER wins by those with fewer triples but good PCS as their PCS will be a bigger % of total score.
     
  27. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    I assume you mean "at least one of the three non-axel jumps." Which means they all could be. E.g., 3S+2Lo and 3Lo, or 3Lo+2Lo (or 3Lo+3Lo) and 3S.

    Would it be OK to show no toe jumps in the SP, given that, arguably, edge jumps are more about skating skill (vs. jumping skill) compared to toe jumps?

    If the idea is to show balance between both types of jumps, then you'd need to say at least one must be a toe jump and at least one must be an edge jump. But 3S+2T and 3Lo or 3Lz+2Lo and 3F could meet that requirement.

    Exactly. Just limiting the jump passes is not magically going to make the majority of senior ladies capable of executing elements that even the best jumpers (men and women) find challenging.

    To me it would make more sense to let the women skate longer programs, 4:15 or 4:30 +/- :10, and give them the option of an 8th jump pass or 4th spin or another type of element.
     
  28. nlyoung

    nlyoung Active Member

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    True, but the reality is that judges tend to just count whether a jump is completed or not. There are provisions in place to reward stronger jumps that are higher or cover more ground with GOE/SS, but it's not clear they are used consistently. A tiny, but perfectly executed jump with great technique shouldn't be penalized just because the girl attempting the jump isn't strong enough for massive height or distance.
     
  29. aliceanne

    aliceanne Well-Known Member

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    I wonder if counting revolutions on jumps is a good goal for women's skating. It is relatively easy for a slight child to do double jumps without jumping out. Simply hop up in place and spin. The problem is that isn't good technique when they grow and put on weight. They should be learning to jump up and out, rotating at the peak of the arc. This is harder to do in terms of strength and timing, but is necessary with an adult body.

    I guess if you want to keep skating a child sport, or a sport for women with pre-teen bodies (who lack stamina because they don't eat) counting revolutions is OK, but it doesn't give many skaters a long enough career to develop artistry, and small jumps aren't very exciting as sport.

    With all the under-rotation and edge calls women are getting it seems the technical content is going backwards not forwards. You now have champions who can't do all the triple jumps, let alone move on to triple axels, quads, and triple/triple combinations.
     
  30. mag

    mag Well-Known Member

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    But really, could any more do them cleanly before? I suspect the number of clean jumps has not changed substantially over the last 20 years. What is different now is we have the technology available to see the under rotations and call them. (Because Kwan has to be in every thread ;) I'll use the following example) I recently came across an older youtube video of Michelle. I laughed out loud as Dick Button said, as Michelle was doing a 3Lz, "Now there is a clean out side edge with no sign of a flutz." It is absolutely clear on the video that she changed to an inside edge before take off. Maybe not as blatant as some, but a clear change none the less. Now, she would get an edge call, back then, it was clean. Now before I get jumped on, given the sureness of Michelle's jumps, I suspect if there were edge calls when she was skating she would have done a Rochette and fixed the lutz absolutely and completely and would have had a deep outside edge, but the reality is, she didn't need to. In real time, under the judging system of the day, it didn't matter. Same goes for the many cheated jumps. Kimmie's 3A's at US Nationals would never hold up now, Ando's 4S same. What about Tara's 3l/3l? Was it always clean by today's standards? Probably not.