Should a purely artistic program be added to singles events?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Maofan7, Jul 31, 2011.

Should a purely artistic program be added to ladies/mens singles competitions?

Poll closed Aug 31, 2011.
  1. Yes

    24 vote(s)
    18.6%
  2. No

    105 vote(s)
    81.4%
  1. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    Re Skate Canada Interpretive competitions:

    I've seen Canadian television coverage of the men's event from 1991 and 1992 and ladies from one of those years (I think 3-5 skaters each, don't know if that was all of them).

    What I remember is that in 1991 Daniel Weiss won with a program (Phantom of the Opera?) that relied heavily on costume, acting, and interacting with the audience and less on actual skating skills, but it made a strong theatrical impact, probably even stronger live. David Liu was second with a non-jump version of his short program to The Mission soundtrack, relying mostly on the skating skills, including his trademark one-foot step sequence, and telling a story about a man's spiritual journal, but his presentation was more internal and low key than Weiss's.

    The following year the changed the rules to emphasize the skating and deemphasize the externals, and Liu won that year. Then they discontinued the event.

    None of the ladies from what I saw were particularly memorable.

    I liked the rules from the final 1992 version of the competition. IIRC, jumps of up to 1.5 revolutions were allowed, but no doubles or triples. I don't remember about spins.

    I'd be happy to see a singles event that would be judged on program components and step sequence(s) and other types of elements (spiral sequence and some newly invented ones) involving blades on ice, but no points and maybe deductions for double+ jumps and sustained spins. There would also need to be restrictions on costuming, no props, etc., to keep the focus on the skating. And very clear guidelines on how to score each of the new elements and each of the components.

    I'm not sure that the Transitions component would make sense as such since there wouldn't be big freestyle elements for them to be transitions between.

    There could be no elements at all and the entire score could be components. In that case the Transitions component could be replaced by a component called, maybe, Highlights, in which moves like spirals, spread eagles, split jumps, etc., even step sequences, could be rewarded.

    Or there could be elements, with levels called by a technical panel. For example, 1 Step Sequence could be required, and there could be 2-4 other optional elements, chosen from, e.g.,

    Spiral Sequence
    Field Moves Sequence
    (these might or might not be defined so that a single sustained glide in position could fill these slots, like the 6-second hold in the current Choreo Spiral Sequence)
    School Figures Variation
    Small Jump Sequence
    Twizzle Sequence
    Second Step Sequence

    Anything else?

    In that case, everything between the called elements would count as transitions.

    Or advanced jumps and spins could be allowed but just not earn any points.

    If the rules are clear enough, it should be judgeable and understandable. Of course judging things like Interpretation is always subjective to some degree, so there will surely be disagreements, and controversies once it gets noticed enough.

    I'm sure it would take a number of years for enough skaters to develop the necessary skating and performance skills and figure out what kind of program choices work best for this to be a satisfying event for audiences.

    Would it be better to start more modestly and try to build up the discipline from the grassroots up? Or to start from the top and invite proven freestyle champions to compete in this event as a sideline? That would attract audiences sooner but wouldn't necessarily translate into enough freestyle competitors choosing to put more training time into artistic skating instead, or more artistic skaters who've given up on getting the difficult jumps needed for freestyle success choosing to keep training up to senior/elite level in this lesser known discipline that will never get Olympic exposure.
     
  2. aliceanne

    aliceanne Well-Known Member

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    I get where you're coming from Maofan, I think there is a missed opportunity in skating, but traditional skating just has too many rules and most people who are successful under that system just aren't able to think outside the traditional moves or format. Truly creative skating needs to come from outside the system, the way break dance and modern dance evolved outside of classical dance.
     
  3. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    Over the years, the truly creative programs mostly came from the pro skaters, but lately the pro/tour programs have become as hackneyed and predictable as the eligible skater exhibitions. Even when skaters work with choreographers from the dance world, their contribution seems to get reduced to arm and hand gestures. Whatever else they might have had to offer gets absorbed into the traditional format rather than breaking outside the box.

    When I think of pro/exhibition programs that felt awesomely different, I think Nyah probably tops the list, along with the T&D dance done with no music. I think Kulik also tried some weird choreo in his early SOI days, doing some Beacom-esque skating and the tap number, but the skate of his that seemed to take skating to a whole other place was the Liebestraum exhibition from the 96-97 season.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2011
  4. os168

    os168 Active Member

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    It is a valid question but it would never work in practice.

    It might be better to create a totally new competition that doesn't conform to the existing COP system instead, marked by judges people respect and knows, that can actually give valid reasons to justify why they mark the way they did.

    The question is if people will want to watch. To do that, you need stars, great programs, challenging themes and ideas.

    If it can be an amazing spectacle that bring new audience to the sport, then it absolutely should be done however controversial or disagreeable the system use to mark it, as the marking scheme can always be improved upon later.
     
  5. Mafke

    Mafke Well-Known Member

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    How is this different from solo dance? Compulsory dances make an excelent test of basic technique (and help keep CD's around)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VB4Jldm6Dp4&

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v20U6267nXA

    Solo dance has become very popular on rollers. Originally a way to give females with no partners a way to compete its biggest growth has been among male competitors.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5v-yzEYG7aM
     
    gkelly and (deleted member) like this.
  6. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    It's not very different from solo free dance. (And yes, solo compulsories could be used as the first phase of competition.)

    That discipline is still in its beginning developmental phases in the US, even more so at the international level.

    Could the ISU kick start participation by potentially world-class skaters, and to get attention from media and sponsors as a result, by offering international junior and senior events in this discipline, whatever they choose to call it?
     
  7. Morry Stillwell

    Morry Stillwell Well-Known Member

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    I too, would like to see a separate discipline for show skating, but I don't think the ISU is the place (too rule bound and political). I think this is something that has to evolve out of recreational skating (like the style skating competitions in roller skating).[/QUOTE]

    I believe It would take a major change in philosophy to make such an event work for the ISU.

    However, there have been US Figure Skating Showcase Events in the US for 37 years. The concept was introduce by the Los Angeles Figure Skating club in 1970 and called “Showcase for Skaters”.

    In 2004 the event became a national event. The categories are set under the basic classification of: Light Entertainment, Dramatic Entertainment, and Extemporaneous. Further definitions of categories are by US Figure Skating Free Skating test levels and age.

    The 2011 National Showcase was held in Cleveland, Ohio with almost 500 starts. Skater may enter more than one category.

    I was pleased to be one of the officials
     
  8. Frau Muller

    Frau Muller President of Dick Button Appreciation Club

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    Didn't Skate Canada Int'l competition include artistic singles events for Ladies & men around 1990? I remember when the VERY entertaining Dan Weiss of WGer won for the men. There didn't seem to be any problems having separate artistic tracks then and the crowd faves seemed to win, no? It's a shame that the artistic track was discontinued.

    I also seem to remember that the now-defunct US Olympic Festival had an artistic track for a while...specifically, I remember a delightful Joanna Ng winning the artistic but not the "regular" competition. I may be mixing things up...it was along time ago and I can't find my tapes/DVDs quickly enough. :)
     
  9. overedge

    overedge where's the remote?

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    http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showpost.php?p=3255758&postcount=29
     
  10. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    Joanna Ng won the ladies artistic event at Skate Canada in 1990:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlDBuOkNfvo

    And she also medaled at the 1991 US Olympic Festival, but that was skating a regular freeskate:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlVbJz0otR4
     
  11. Frau Muller

    Frau Muller President of Dick Button Appreciation Club

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    Thanks, all. And here is Dan Weiss (W.Ger.) in his FS at Skate Canada 1989. This was in the regular Men's event but he had won the earlier Artistic event at the same competition. This is an all-time CLASSIC in my book. Enjoy:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1N88Rc0GRns
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2011
  12. aliceanne

    aliceanne Well-Known Member

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    I believe It would take a major change in philosophy to make such an event work for the ISU.

    However, there have been US Figure Skating Showcase Events in the US for 37 years. The concept was introduce by the Los Angeles Figure Skating club in 1970 and called “Showcase for Skaters”.

    In 2004 the event became a national event. The categories are set under the basic classification of: Light Entertainment, Dramatic Entertainment, and Extemporaneous. Further definitions of categories are by US Figure Skating Free Skating test levels and age.

    The 2011 National Showcase was held in Cleveland, Ohio with almost 500 starts. Skater may enter more than one category.

    I was pleased to be one of the officials[/QUOTE]

    I would like to see it. I know ISI has artistic competitions as well, but they are never in my area. I'll have to make plans to travel to some of these competitions in the future. Most of the coaches in my area focus on competitive skating, and as a skater sometimes I just get bored with it.
     
  13. Elise

    Elise Active Member

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    Would it be something like the "Showcase" competition we have here in the US?
    I like the idea of creating one, not the idea of including those numbers to single events. I like the theatrical side of it and the facts that it gives a bigger place to creativity and originality than normal skating.
    Just adding: I think the "light" numbers in the showcase are way more interesting than the dramatic ones...
     
  14. sequinsgalore

    sequinsgalore Member

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    Was wondering:
    At the 2009 Chinese Figure Skating Championship the single skaters also performed a 3:30 minute long interpretive program (vocals permitted), which was judged as part of the competition (total score=in+sp+lp).

    They did hard jumps though, so it was not a pure artistic program - more like a medium program. Does anyone know why the comp was held this way? The skaters had to choreograph a new program, which they couldn't use anywhere else. Does that not seem like a lot of hassle?
     
  15. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

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    There are ballroom dancing competitions. They have rules and some subjectivity. Those have worked out well AFAIK, so I don't see why it cannot work for FS. However, I can see why this cannot be a part of the Olympics. It's not exactly a sport. However, it could be included in the world figure skating championships.
     
  16. Morry Stillwell

    Morry Stillwell Well-Known Member

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    :):):)