Should a break in a program be severely penalized?

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Maofan7, Mar 2, 2013.

  1. MacMadame

    MacMadame Internet Beyotch

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    Which is why I don't understand why they don't just wait out the time that the withdrawn skater would have taken or at least some portion of it (since they can't know exactly how long it would take to determine the marks).
     
  2. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    Tammi, that's exactly what I am implying. That it is open to abuse. I am not saying that any of the three couples did abuse it, but if something is open to abuse, I believe that sooner or later someone will start taking advantage of it.

    Your skater may not have problem with the situation as such, but maybe would have a problem if he/she lost a medal because several couples who stopped beat her/him. Especially if your skater would perhaps have a very bad fall, get up and continue whereas someone else would stop without any obvious visible injury.
     
  3. ioana

    ioana Well-Known Member

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    Not being able to get on the ice until 3 minutes later than expected would also disrupt their normal preparation, as well. I'm not sure there are any answers that are absolutely right here, but referees should double check and see whether or not a particular element should be allowed a reskate or not. I think a lot of this discussion goes back to V/M and the Shibs redoing their lifts.
     
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  4. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    I think a lot of it is a perception thing. The injuries that caused the stops were not visible to the naked eye. It could appear to a casual observer that the skaters can stop if they feel like it, tell the referee they had a cramp or spasm, get a drink of water, take a nice breath, and then they get to redo the element! A lot of people already think fs is a pansy sport, so this could hurt its credibility in their eyes... for myself, I know these athletes are trained to go through the program, the last thing they want to do is stop, that ruining the overall impression kills a freedance, and so I doubt it will be abused too much.

    The question is, is the rule actually working to its logical conclusion and the intended consequences? How do the skaters feel about it? If the rule is working, is the possible negative perception enough reason to change it? I mean, in gymnastics they have the federations give money to the referee if they want to change the results, which I think makes it look like a mockery, and it happened with controversial results at the Olympics and AFAIK they didn't change anything.
     
  5. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    I don't think the referee's job is to be the medical official. What are you thinking?
     
  6. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    What are you referring to?
     
  7. ioana

    ioana Well-Known Member

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    Do you mean they need to put down a cash deposit for an appeal/protest? I'm not sure that 'looks' good on camera, but I doubt the rule would be changed just because of that. I know Tim Dagget had to explain the rule to Al Trautwig during the Olympics and he still acted as if he didn't understand. Al's a moron in general, so I wouldn't take his struggles with that concept as something the rest of the world has trouble with. Granted, some viewers might take that to heart and this goes back to the importance of commentators maintaining some professionalism. Even when they believe a result is incorrect or a rule might need some explanations before making sense to casual viewers. In the case of Olympic gymnastics, the cash advance is there to prevent frivolous appeals and is returned once the panel agrees to investigate the matter further.

    http://www.slate.com/blogs/five_rin..._to_protest_an_olympic_judge_s_decision_.html
     
  8. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    However, injuries, withdrawals, etc. are part of sports, and FS needs to be treated as a sport if it is to be part of the Olympics. What is a disadvantage for one skater could be an advantage for another. Being allowed to re-try a missed element is a HUGE advantage for a skater. Regardless of what the skaters say, a breather in the middle of a program is an advantage over someone that has to push through a program. Skaters are awarded more points for landing jumps later in the program because it's harder to do them when tired. Imagine a skater who takes a break for a few minutes, then goes on the ice and lands all the jumps late in the program. That is an advantage, whether a skater admits it or not.

    The rules need to be specific enough that everyone understands those, with the risks and rewards. If it's something obvious like an object on the ice, a skater does not need to be penalized for it. However, if a skater has leg cramps or any other physical problem, it needs to be treated like any sport, which means it could result in a withdrawal, but it needs to be the skater's decision. It does not mean that skater is hated or that the intent is to create problems for that skater or any other skater, but 'no deduction for a break in the program' is open to potential abuse. The rule must discourage skaters from using the break except in extreme circumstances -e.g. risk of serious injury- and that determination needs to be made by the skater, and not by the observers because they don't know what the skater is feeling. A rule specifying the deduction gives the skater an opportunity to evaluate risk vs reward.
     
  9. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    Yes. I understand why the rule is there. It looks tacky but it serves a purpose. My point is the same as yours - that perception alone is not a good reason to change a rule if the rule is otherwise working. And perception of abuse, IMO, is the bigger problem with these skater stops than skaters actually abusing it.
     
  10. ioana

    ioana Well-Known Member

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    That I agree with. My main issue with this is the way starting points were determined after skaters stopped. I don't think we should make it as hard as possible for someone to finish their program. I do think we should take a closer look whether giving skaters the benefit of the doubt has been taken too far --when it comes to where they stopped.
     
  11. ioana

    ioana Well-Known Member

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    This could be different for singles vs. ice dancers. I'm not a high level skater, but the few times I tried compulsory dances getting in the right rhythm and count was by far the biggest challenge. Edges and steps were not all that difficult in and of themselves. I'm not sure if any international level ice dancers struggle with that (probably not :lol:), but I'm sure some find it more difficult to get right back into a rhythm and character after a break. Isn't that part of the reason why some programs start out with posing and a few stationary steps before taking off for ftwk or a pattern?
     
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  12. morqet

    morqet Active Member

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    But how can you enforce fairly this because how can you know whether an athlete is carrying an injury going into an event or not? It was obvious with Papadakis because her ankle was strapped, but something like Tessa's problem with her legs can't be seen like that, and although it's a pre-existing condition we don't know how severe it is all the time; if she has to stop mid program because her legs are suddenly in pain does that count under your rule as a known injury before they started? What if a skater has issues with their back, and like Papadakis's ankle, they have it taped with Kinesio tape, but the referee can't see the taping under the costume, so doesn't know about the injury? I don't think you can make a distinction based on whether it's a pre-exisiting injury or one that occurred during the program.
     
  13. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    (Deleted - duplicate, sorry)
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2013
  14. Leeedward

    Leeedward New Member

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    MY TAKE: If a skater or team stops during a competitive program, the music should continue. The skater(s) can resume at any point as the music continues. When the music is completed, the skater or team is judged on what was completed. (If there is an injury, and the skater cannot continue, it is considered a withdrawal.)
     
  15. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    Compulsory dances are so short, I don't think there is the same endurance issue as in a free skate or free dance. It would be interesting to see over the years how many times these stoppages came in free skates rather than SP/SD. Just by the minutes involved, the ratio should be around 8:5 but I'd guess the freeskate stoppages have been much more frequent. Maybe knowing the end of the program is in sight would make a skater more likely to just push thru in the SP rather than stop.

    I don't think any of us accuses any particular skaters of stopping due to some deliberate strategy. How or why they choose to stop, it is still undeniable that a skater who uses the rule gets the benefit of a breather and the advantage of not having to skate the program all the way through.

    Exactly. The athletes are entirely on their honor to stop only when too ill or injured to continue. The problem is that once this practice starts, then other skaters will be more likely to use it, possibly for milder and milder issues. I don't think there is any question the rule is open to abuse.
     
  16. Tammi

    Tammi Merlot lover

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    My crystal ball wasn't working, so I tried an athlete instead, my mistake ;) .
     
  17. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    What if their dresses fall off? I think the music should be stopped and they should be allowed to get the garment back on.
     
  18. MacMadame

    MacMadame Internet Beyotch

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    I think if their dresses fall off they should get a +2 for PE! ;)
     
  19. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    Only if both partners costumes come off simultaneously.
     
  20. Japanfan

    Japanfan Well-Known Member

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    But the disruption to the program would easily eliminate any advantage gained by having the chance to redo the element. I really don't think - as some here suggest - that skaters intentionally stop and cry injury in order to redo an element. There is just no way to train for that. And nor can I see any motivation.

    V&M's loss at 4CC provides an example of the disadvantage. There was just no way they could beat D&W after that, because of the disruption to the program. One might argue that by stopping and starting, they lost fewer points than they would have had they just missed the element. But again, I don't see how skaters can make the choice to say they were injured in order to restart their program. In the case of V&M or Zhangs, the injuries were obvious.
     
  21. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    The current rule does not allow skaters to redo an element, so that whole issue is a non-starter. For example, if a skater falls on a jump so badly they can't get up and continue without a break, the program and scoring pick up after the jump, so the fall still counts.

    Actually, in the case of V-M, the injury was not at all evident. She simply refused to let Scott lift her, then glided around, using both legs, for 15 or 20 seconds. She didn't limp, she didn't even lean over and rub the offending muscle (at least not on the videos I saw), and after the break she skated like there was nothing wrong. I don't suggest this was somehow a ploy but it is an example of an injury whose severity was not at all obvious and where the referee had to take the skater's word about the problem.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2013
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  22. DaiKozOda

    DaiKozOda Active Member

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    Rubleva & Shefer... She had a problem with her dress during a program at the Euros a few years ago and they didn't stop. The video is quite a hit on youtube.
     
  23. kates8

    kates8 Member

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  24. rvi5

    rvi5 Active Member

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  25. kates8

    kates8 Member

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    I was referring to the tweets about Zhang and Wu where they said - Zhang and Wu have stopped their program - looks like issue with Zhang and then another tweet that says They are continuing.
     
  26. gingercat

    gingercat Active Member

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    Following a delay can also interrupt the preparation of a skater. An athlete is a competitor, as a competitor you must face all sorts of hurdles. One such hurdle is injury. I am sure Kerry Scrugs ( not sure of the spelling) the gymnast would have loved to have postponed her Olympic performance until her foot felt better, she continued on. This is the life of an international competitive athlete, this is why they are better than the rest. If you can push through every day of training, fall after fall, then finishing off a program should not be an issue. Keep the playing field as fair as possible. Just my opinion.
     
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  27. DORISPULASKI

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

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    I don't know what happened, but their protocol shows them to have had crazy problems, as well as the stoppage. They also got a music violation (-2) and an extended lift [-1). What's interesting is that the votes of the judges for the music violation show up on the protocol.

    7 of 9 judges voted for it.

    However, as in other cases of stoppages, you can't tell from the protocol that anything happened. They finished 17th in the FD. None of their elements had negative GOE. And there's no judge whose PCS votes aren't within +/-.5 of each other.

    While I'm looking at Papadakis & Cizeron, their PCS was 43.86; Stepanova & Bukin's was 45.31, while Aldridge & Eaton got 42.80; clearly their PCS was pretty much what they would have gotten if they skated perfectly, since I sincerely doubt they would have passed S&B in PCS, given that their PCS was behind S&B in the SD.

    In fact, you can show that there was no real deduction at all, despite that having been a flawed skate due to her ankle, not just an interrupted skate.

    [TABLE="width: 144"]



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    [TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Link f/2[/TD]

    [TD="class: xl63, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]7.11[/TD]

    [TD="class: xl63, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]7.18[/TD]

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    They got 0.07 less for Interpretation & Timing than they did in the SD & 0.14 less in Performance- and given the total lack of timing & disruption of the program during the three part twizzle section(which is long enough to be a significant portion of the program), that seems very generous to me.

    So no, there is no evidence at all that stopping hurts your PCS at this Jr Worlds.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2013
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  28. lauravvv

    lauravvv Well-Known Member

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    Yes, those who were not looking carefully couldn't notice anything. But those who did look could see her favoring her left leg a bit, and that it was obviously difficult for her to stand on that leg for a moment. Probably when she felt the cramp she was afraid that it could become more serious than it actually turned out, and probably it would have been so if she had just continued. But we can't know for sure. Still, I agree that it didn't look like anything severe looking from the outside. Although people, even athletes, are different - some have it ingrained in them to show their pain/weakness as little as possible. So, probably Virtue was feeling much worse than she did show.
     
  29. shan

    shan Well-Known Member

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    I think your comments show the problem with the whole situation. There's just too much speculation and "probablys" and "can't know for sure" and depending upon what something appears to be. That's why I think the rule should be written in such a way that it can clearly be enforced.
     
  30. lauravvv

    lauravvv Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I agree. But I also agree that skaters have to be given a chance to decide whether they can continue, or not, an the penalty can not be too severe, as it would discourage skaters with a serious problem from stopping for fear of having no choice but to withdraw, or of being so severely penalized that it wouldn't make sense to continue anyway even if they felt capable of continuing.