Should a break in a program be severely penalized?

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Maofan7, Mar 2, 2013.

  1. MacMadame

    MacMadame Internet Beyotch

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    No I am not. For one thing, it has nothing to do with morals. It really has nothing to do with honesty either.

    I am talking about the culture of a sport. Of what is deemed acceptable and unacceptable behavior by the majority. Sometimes it's about ethics, but sometimes it's just about convention -- how it's always been.

    All sports have rules of acceptable behavior, some of them are written and official but there are some that are unwritten and unofficial as well. As an example, cycling which is/was full of doping has some unofficial rules about how you deal with mechanical failures. At an important race last year or the year before (Tour de France?), some cyclist in the lead had a mechanical failure and some other cyclist passed him. The cycling world was OUTRAGED.

    I am not really in the cycling racing world but a lot of my friends are so my FB feed was exploding and I was scratching my head. WTF? The guy in second is supposed to stop and let the guy in 1st fix his bike before he continues? But only sometimes? (Because sometimes they don't wait and no one is outraged.) I asked for clarification but I never did figure out exactly what these unofficial rules were. But it was clear to me that they existed and at least 90% of the people in cycling believed in them even though officially the dude they were mad at didn't break any written rules and got to win the stage.

    But they couldn't count on that. It was the equivalent of a bad line call in tennis like when they call a ball that is out as if it it's in. Scott looks shocked when he was told they could begin the program from just before the lift. So he wasn't expecting that at all.

    It was the referee. The ref decides these things and I've found their decisions about where to restart programs over the years to be rather capricious.

    If I were a skater, there is no way I would come up with a strategy that included deliberately stopping my program with the idea that the ref would agree to let me restart it exactly where I wanted him to let me restart. On the extremely small chance that I had something go wrong at the exact right moment that such a strategy even had a prayer of working.

    That would be an extremely dumb strategy, in fact. Which is why no one practices to do that.

    The other thing is: all the people on this thread who skate and compete keep telling you guys who don't skate and compete that stopping your program is NOT an advantage. But all you can see is "Tessa was breathing heavy when she stopped and wasn't when they restarted." That doesn't make stopping an advantage. Skaters are always breathing heavy after their programs. Having to get your heart rate back down again so you can restart with any degree of control in a very short period of time is actually hard and adds to the stress of stopping. It's another thing that might not work in your favor if you decide "hey, this is a great strategy. I'm going to do this in all my competitions." What if you go to restart your program and you are still huffing a bit and your pulse is still racing. It's really hard to start a program in that state. (I know this from experience.)

    Another consideration: I haven't read a single interview where other skaters at these three competitions complained about what happened and said the rules have to change. I suspect the skaters are happy with the rules.

    We aren't happy and the reason a lot of us aren't happy is that it seemed like this big interruption in the program -- something that definitely impacted our enjoyment of the program -- didn't seem to have a penalty. Or not a very big one. The skaters involved all still ended up on the medal stand and in some cases in the same position that was predicted for them if they'd skated clean. So that's frustrating to us.

    But we should keep in mind that in the one case at least, that was probably a mistake. If V/M had been told to restart the program *after* the aborted lift, which would have happened if Tessa had actually gone up into it and fell, they would have lost a TON of points. However, they probably still would have ended up in 2nd place as the gap between them and Chock/Bates was HUGE. So maybe people still would have been outraged but maybe seeing the big gap in score between them and Davis/White would have appeased people.
     
  2. shan

    shan Well-Known Member

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    I'm certainly not implying that the stop was planned (I don't think it was.) But does he really look shocked? It looked to me like he skated over and asked if they could restart at a certain point and was told yes. Just curious and wondering if I missed something.
     
  3. Sasha'sSpins

    Sasha'sSpins Well-Known Member

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    I'm just not sure what to think. For Virtue and Moir I still feel they were starting their lift and aborted it due to injury-so they shouldn't have been allowed to try it again. I think they should have been required to start from after the lift. Also I think at least one of them took a sip of water before going on. Should this be allowed? Other competitors certainly can't stop to take a sip of water if their thirsty to go on. Medical treatment here is sketchy. If there is a pulled muscle, etc. a quick rub down or something along those lines should be allowed but should the competitor be allowed to refresh themselves with food or water? I just don't know. In sports like track and gymnastics no do-overs are allowed unless it's something out of the athletes control like a mis-measured lane in track (which has happened in Olympic competition) or equipment failure in gymnastics i.e. bars coming apart, pommels breaking off and the athlete can't refresh themselves although I have seem gymnasts squirt water into their mouths from the bottles they use when they chalk up their equipment and water it down. Cramps seem a problem of conditioning and in such cases I don't believe the athlete should be allowed to continue, or at the very least they should be required to go on directly from where they stopped. Again, they should not be allowed to repeat an element they clearly had started but could not finish.
     
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  4. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    Yeah enough about cheating. Nobody would plan in advance to cheat in this foolish way, but everybody knows you cannot compare programs where one team stops and takes a break or attempts a skill twice. It simply needs to be discouraged, and clear penalties do that.
     
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  5. chantilly

    chantilly Active Member

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    I watched the Virtue and Moir skate quite a few times in replay. And the lift wasn't aborted. It wasn't even begun as her feet didn't leave the ice. They were merely getting into position for the lift. However I do strongly feel that they should get a 2 pt deduction. As well as mandatory deductions in the PCS. Perhaps at least a 1 point deduction in performance and execution. So 3 points overall. In dance of course that would be huge. In singles/pairs it would more than likely work itself out because they would already get a 4 point deduction for a fall that would more than likely cause the injury. If they merely stopped due to equipment or an injury without a fall, well there is a chance that they could still win. But as some are still winning over others with mistakes vs other with clean programs, there isn't much of a difference. But yeah they should still receive a 3 point deduction. I also think there should be mandatory deductions in PCS for falls in performance and execution. Not sure how much though. A half or quarter point per fall seems fair.

    I also don't think a distinction should be made regarding equipment/costume vs injury. It is the athlete's bad luck either way and they need to accept responsibility for it regardless.
     
  6. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    I agree with about three points, but is there such a thing as a "mandatory deduction in the PCS"?
     
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  7. VarBar

    VarBar Well-Known Member

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    Wouldn't it be funny if one football team had to stop the game for whatever reason while the players in the other team were allowed to continue all by themselves? Wonder which of the teams would win the match.;)
     
  8. euterpe

    euterpe Well-Known Member

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    P/C are an entirely different case. They decided to compete when she was already injured. It was only after she messed up the twizzles that they asked to stop. I think the referee should have told them they could NOT continue because she started the program with an injury, and more skating could only make the injury worse.
     
  9. Tammi

    Tammi Merlot lover

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  10. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    In the case of cycling, you are not talking about a rule but about etiquette. Because cyclists race in close quarters over 3 weeks, they have developed a fairly elaborate set of protocols about acceptable behavior. One such code is that the peleton does not attack when the guy in the yellow jersey is eating, taking a pee, has a mechanical problem or even a crash. This courtesy does not apply to other cyclists, not even to the Tour favorite if he is not at that time in the yellow jersey. Karma ruled the end, though, as the guy who attacked to gain the lead failed a doping test and was stripped of the Tour title.

    Cycling is off topic here, but I think this raises the concept of what is not done because it is punished rule vs what is not done by etiquette because it is not of the noblest sporting notions. Clearly, the old restart rule relied on skaters having noble sporting ethics, and they had to change it when win-at-all costs led to folks abusing the rule. Clearly, three different dance teams having invisible ailments in the middle of free dances in the same year suggests the time has come to consider whether the generosity of the current rule also relies too much on the sporting ethic and needs to be less forgiving.
     
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  11. sk8ingcoach

    sk8ingcoach Active Member

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    In cases like what happened at 4cc where Virtue/Moir stopped ( because of loss of breathe ?? idk ) i believe there should be atleast a 2 point penalty. They were able to have a 2 minute break with the scores being affected. ridiculous.

    Situations when someone has a bad fall, they should either keep going or not finish the program at all. Not have a 2 min breathing break and then finish. ( eg Ashley Cain JGP courchevel)

    In situations where your lace comes undone (eg tonya hardning olympics) you should be able to finish your program without any penalty. However you should continue from where the skater stopped, not tie up your lace again then go do a perfect triple lutz like tonya did.
     
  12. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    I think skaters should be penalized and that it should be the referee's call with a range of deductions based on time and whether the referee was approached, if the issue is with the skaters: ex: injury, equipment failure, costume issues. If the issue is not with the skaters -- ex: a judge drops a pencil on the ice, an official gets ill and gets emergency medical attention, -- something goes wrong with the building -- ex: fire alarm, lights go out, something drops from the ceiling, bird flies into skaters -- or equipment -- ex: music player stops playing, loudspeakers go out, or the issue is the fault of prior competitors -- bunch of crystals on the ice -- or someone jumping on the ice, then they should not be penalized for stopping. The one that could be most easily gamed is if someone from the audience throws something on the ice.

    I don't think it should be a deduction from PCS, because I don't think it would be applied consistently. I also don't think the skaters have to go to the referee to stop the program, but that it should also apply to interruptions, for example, if a skater hits the wall and loses ten seconds bending over and skating it out before heading to catch up to the program, there should be a penalty, although a much smaller one, and one that is called by the referee.
    I think the referee or a designated judge or official who is there to do the timing at the order of the referee should track time. The referee would call tentative penalty start time. If the referee determined that it was not the skater's fault, then the timing would be ignored and reset. If it was an official stop, then the timer would continue until the referee called for it to be turned off.

    The stop occurs when the referee calls it -- i.e., dangerous condition because pant leg strap is loose -- or when they stop skating and don't quickly resume the program.

    The referee's location should not be an issue. The ISU could contract with the host to have emergency medical people be close, but just as ice has different conditions in different rinks and temperature control is varied, a skater in a competition with slower or more cautious medical personnel would be subject to the same variations, although treatment should be consistent within the same competition.

    If the ISU wants consistency in terms of service, they can contract it and make the band-aid X minutes away.

    This could go either way: the referee could stop the clock if it took longer than a fixed period of time to get the music set, and the skaters would get longer to catch their breath, or the deduction clock could stop once the music started again. The trade-off for getting a longer rest is that it's a longer break in continuity, both for the skaters and the judges.


    There's no way of knowing whether the judges are treating stopping completely and starting again more leniently: any value judgement the judges make on the quality of the PCS is rolled into one score per component, and there is no way of knowing what the score consists of.
     
  13. Tammi

    Tammi Merlot lover

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    This one is actually already a rule, it's called Interruption of Program. The penalty is imposed by the referee and ranges from 1.0 to 2.0 based on how long it takes for the skater/team to get back into the program (most likely following a fall I imagine).

    7 Interruption of program -
    for 11-20 sec. interruption (-1.0)
    for 21-30 sec. interruption etc…. (-2.0)
     
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  14. lauravvv

    lauravvv Well-Known Member

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    Did you read anything in this thread, or Virtue/Moir thread before writing this? Most of people here seem to know that they stopped because Tessa Virtue had a leg cramp, and was not able to continue right away, not "because of a loss of breath". Yes, she was breathing heavily, but part of the reason for that may have been the pain that she had experienced. A cramp in the calf muscles can be quite painful, and the leg feels quite weak some time after that, so much that it can be difficult, if not impossible, to stand on that leg right away. I have experienced similar cramps a few times while exercising, but for Tessa Virtue it may have been more serious.
     
  15. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    I don't think I've ever seen this deduction on a protocol. I'm sure it's happened, but I do remember hearing a discussion among commentators at least once questioning why there wasn't a deduction for a substantial stop in the program. I thought this went the way of the required deduction for stopping the program.

    On another topic, a skater could submit a bad CD, but the CD is used at official practice and played through. I don't know, though, if when a disc is found faulty at official practice and is replaced if the replacement CD is tested before the actual program.
     
  16. sk8ingcoach

    sk8ingcoach Active Member

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    Did you read the ?? after my statement and the idk. I clearly stated that i didnt know exactly what happened. So if you would stop being rude and take a chill pill i would appreciate that

    If it were "a leg cramp" , there should absolutely be some sort of penalty for stopping. Otherwise they should not be allowed to finish the program
     
  17. MacMadame

    MacMadame Internet Beyotch

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    I think that's probably why the ref had them start where they did. But I disagree. I think the music should be restarted at the point of time when Scott broke away from Tessa and skated over to the ref. At this point, since they didn't actually start the lift, they have the choice of trying to fit it in even though the part of the program it went in had passed (so other parts of the program had to be rearranged) or just leaving it out.

    Yes I know. In fact that is exactly what I said. That this cyclist did not break a written rule but an unwritten one of what was acceptable behavior while racing.

    Which means that all 3 of these instances could have had penalties that just don't seem obvious to us because we don't know what the marks would have been without the break.

    I thought they ripped all the CDs and played the music digitally these days. I know they do that at some of the local competitions I've been too.
     
  18. Tammi

    Tammi Merlot lover

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    It happened at a dance event I attended, but can't remember which one. That's the only reason I knew it was a rule ;) .

    MacMadame is correct that US qualifying does all the music digitally now. I've seen plenty of bad CD's at local events though.
     
  19. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    I agree.

    That makes so much more sense than relying upon the physical media.
     
  20. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    K/S were given that deduction at NHK in 2009 for her shoulder dislocation and needing time to pop it back in and seeing if they can continue. They were charged one for the fall and two for Interuption in excess.
     
  21. shan

    shan Well-Known Member

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    I just can't see how these two phrases can go together. :yikes:
     
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  22. MacMadame

    MacMadame Internet Beyotch

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    Yeah, athletes are a different breed.
     
  23. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    It is pretty gross but she's a trooper. The deduction may be the reason she kept going when it happened at Euros and Olympics; those two points can be the difference between medals and no medals.
     
  24. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    I don't know if you noticed, but both Shibutanis and V+M were getting into hold for the lift and then stopped, so one may argue that they actually 'repeated' the lift. I know that they didn't actually perform the lift but they were already starting the element, they did not stop just when standing upright doing transitions. (In fact, the first attempt of the lift from Shibutanis were a different hold that the successful attempt).
     
  25. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    Another overgeneralisation. I skate, competed and I do believe it is an advantage.

    You also say that you haven't read a single interview where other skaters at these three competitions complained about what happened and said the rules have to change. Well, there was an interview by some Russian (don't remember who exactly it was, possibly Shabalin?) He was commenting on the stop Shibutanis made and questioning why they were allowed to repeat the lift. So not all skaters (or ex skaters) believe the rules are fair.
     
  26. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    This!
     
  27. Asli

    Asli Well-Known Member

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    They got into position but were not able to start the lift. They skated through it. The caller would not have called it a lift of course, but they would not have earned any points either.

    In a designated official practice before the competition, the couples skate all of their elements so that the technical panel can take notes and the judges can know what to expect. So the panel cannot ignore that a lift was missed. Actually they can and they have, but it wouldn't serve fairness at a close competition.


    IMO it is best for such rules to reflect what would be considered fair by skaters, coaches and the knowledgeable public. After all, the aim of all these judging rules is fairness. I believe anyone would understand that if a skater misses an element because he feels a cramp coming, he cannot be given a second chance - it's the same in all sports. Otherwise it would not be fair to the significant number of athletes who compete with minor of major injuries or illness and perform their elements through pain. What's going on in an athlete's body at a particular moment is very difficult to assess and quantify.

    OTOH, if a skater's boot laces are undone, most people would find it shocking not to give him a chance to tie them and continue from where he stopped. There is no disputing the fact that he could not have continued with his laces undone.
     
  28. Sasha'sSpins

    Sasha'sSpins Well-Known Member

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    Neither can I! If dislocated a shoulder I'd be lying prostate on the ice screaming and crying like a baby! :yikes:

    They sure are! I remember when gymnast Elise Ray said she felt her shoulder pop out :scream: during her Team FX at the 2000 Olympics - I thought her Olympics were over right there!
     
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  29. NadineWhite

    NadineWhite Well-Known Member

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    Lol I love the way you express yourself, Sasha'sSpins. :lol: And I too would honestly be on the ground crying with you. :D

    Seriously though these athletes are on another level, and they'd have to be, considering their elite status, they've earned it and truly paid wilth blood, sweat, tears (btw does Yuko Kavaguti ever cry??? she's like a bionic woman! even Eldredge lay prone on the ice gritting his teeth when he popped his shoulder back in place). :eek:
     
  30. judiz

    judiz Well-Known Member

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    If a gymnast falls off an apparatus, they must climb back on and resume from where they left off within a certain time frame or be penalized.