Should a break in a program be severely penalized?

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Maofan7, Mar 2, 2013.

  1. rainbowkisses

    rainbowkisses Banned Member

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    lmao pls
    this is figure skating not soccer
    and even if you dont get a deduction, stopping still affects your scores.
    if the judges know you are injured they will scrutinize your skating skills more

    in addition, dance is different than pairs/singles (no jumps etc.) so the rules seem fair
    i think there are more problems in fs rn than dancers stopping in the middle of a program then being allowed to continue
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2013
  2. euterpe

    euterpe Well-Known Member

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    IMO, a break due to a momentary 'injury' such as V/M's and Alex Shibutani's (cramps) should be penalized with -1 for one minute, -2 two minutes, and -3 for three; after the 3 minutes are up, the skater/team should be withdrawn. If the skater/team starts to do an element and then stops, that element should not be repeated once the program is resumed.

    In the case of P/C, where she was already injured before they took the ice, stopping should constitute withdrawal. If a skater/team is already injured and they choose to skate, there is the possibility of making the injury worse. So if the injury is too painful to continue, the skater/team should not be permitted to stop and rest, and then resume.

    If the stop is not due to an injury but to some other event, such as equipment or costume malfunction, junk on the ice, music or power problem, there should be no penalty.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2013
  3. PrincessLeppard

    PrincessLeppard Pink Bitch

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    A one point penalty seems lame. It needs to be much more than that.
     
  4. MacMadame

    MacMadame Cat Lady-in-Training

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    Really? You're marking it like a fall and I'm assuming the PCS are also impacted and there might be a missed element as well. That would all add up.
     
  5. euterpe

    euterpe Well-Known Member

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    Obviously, there would be impact on the PCS score for a stop as well as a -1 for one minute. It seems reasonable to make the penalty higher the longer the program is in hiatus---skaters would think twice about taking long 'rest' breaks if there was a down side.
     
  6. lauravvv

    lauravvv Well-Known Member

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    Probably a bit more than that, but not much more. Otherwise, it could lead to situations where a lower level skater/team that also did their technical elements at a considerably lower level could win over a team that still did their elements much better. Yes, on the one hand, it might be physically easier to skaters who had an interruption to perform the rest of their elements. On the other hand, they are very likely to be quite shaken because of such an abrupt interruption, and, therefore, unable to concentrate on their elements quite as well as they would have without that stop - or, quite the opposite, it might result in concentrating too hard and skating too carefully. That could make it difficult to skate the rest of the program to the best of their ability. So, I don't believe that there really is such an advantage as people are saying. The effect it has on skater's PCS was already mentioned - there is no way how it wouldn't influence the judges view of the performance, even if there are no any specific rules demanding a detraction from PCS.
     
  7. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    The problem is that the length of the interruption is not necessarily under the skater's control.

    It might be unclear exactly when the skater stopped. E.g., if the music is still playing and they're still trying to skate to it despite being unable, at that exact moment to execute the choreography as planned. Has the program already stopped? Or are they still trying to continue and the stop doesn't officially occur until they clearly stop trying and make their way to the referee? (Or when the music stops if the ref realizes the skater is unable to go on at that moment)

    The discussion with the referee and maybe the coach or a medical professional to decide whether to withdraw or resume could take varied amount of time that may have more to do with where people are located than with the skater choosing how much time to wait. Should a skater who gets a cut be penalized more if the nearest bandaid is 2 minutes away than if it's 1 minute away?

    Then if they decide to continue, the amount of time it takes to recue the music to the correct spot canalso vary for reasons that have more to do with the nature of the equipment being used or the sharpness of the music person or how easy it is for the ref to communicate with the music person -- the skater is ready to resume, but the music isn't ready -- should the skater be penalized more? Or does the deduction clock stop ticking as soon as the skater indicates s/he's ready to restart, even if it takes another minute or two before they actually start and so in effect they get that much longer to catch their breath?

    I do think that stops for injury that involve stopping the music need to be penalized officially. If the skater just kind of wanders on the ice for several or many seconds while the music is playing and then resumes without having abandoned the ice, then that would be penalized in PCS, so stopping completely and starting again shouldn't be treated more leniently.

    And certain problems, whether with the skater's body or with the equipment, just can't be solved quickly, so after a certain amount of time -- currently 3 minutes? -- if they can't be ready to resume, then they have to withdraw.

    But if there's a problem with the venue that takes longer to resolve, then the whole competition stops for however long it takes to fix, and even if it's hours later they'll resume with that skater, at the beginning of the program. After a certain amount of time everyone who had already warmed up but not competed yet would get another warmup.
     
  8. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    Spoken like a true NON-athlete!

    A skater who happens to fall on their wrist wrong after a jump needs time to see if it's broken for the safety of the skater. Certain things should be penalized. Costume malfunction is much different than an injury and the skater’s health is first and foremost. If too big of a penalty is made, skaters will be reluctant to even stop and that is NOT GOOD!

    Mandatory penalties should be enforced within reason to be fair to the skaters who didn't have to stop and after watching skating forever, it's hardly an epidemic.
     
  9. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    The most important thing for me is that the skaters should resume at the point where they stopped.

    Situations like Virtue/Moir being allowed to resume skating from the point before they stopped and repeat a lift that failed to go up the first time should never ever be allowed to happen.
     
  10. MacMadame

    MacMadame Cat Lady-in-Training

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    I don't know. We've had THREE of these incidents in one season in ISU events alone. Isn't that as many as we've had in the past decade or two?
     
  11. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    I wonder why the ISU has decided to remove the penalty in the first place.

    I guess they did so after some situations where you could feel it was unfairly applied.

    Like Duhamel's partner cutting his hand.

    Couldn't they have made some distinction though between various situations and consider each one separately? Or is that difficult to pin down and could potentially open up protests/lawsuits?
     
  12. Louis

    Louis Tinami 2012

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    I mostly agree with Tracy Wilson, except I'd allow skaters to stop and resume as long as their music is still playing. If you need time to fix your dress, tie your skate, or check if your wrist is broken, that's fine, but your music keeps playing for the 5 or 30 or 60 seconds it takes you to do what you need to. You resume when you're able and you lose anything between.

    Wasn't there a situation at Russian Nationals - I want to say it was 1998 - where Shishkova and Naumov tried to stop their program and got told no by the referee?
     
  13. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    Three? There have been well over 1500 programs skated this season alone between juniors and seniors at ISU events; things happen, the ISU will change if they see it's habit forming among too many skaters.
     
  14. MacMadame

    MacMadame Cat Lady-in-Training

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    But in the past three years there have been ZERO. Suddenly in 1 season there are 3 and two are at Championship events and involved eventual medal winners.
     
  15. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    ^
    Are we counting only injuries or equipment issues, too? Because I can think of two skaters who had to stop with skate issues two seasons ago - Mark Ladwig at 2011 4CC and Daisuke Takahashi at 2011 Worlds. I don't think it's somehow meaningful that both were at ISU Championships in the same season, and I don't think it's more meaningful that three dance teams stopped this season to care for cramps/injuries - random probability, more likely.

    It sounds like Candice Didier at 2009 Worlds.

    Definitely the element that was aborted should not be done again.
     
  16. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

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    In the NFL, if a player is injured, there is a time out that is not charged to his team. However, even if the player walks back to the sidelines, he is not allowed to get int he very next play. He has to wait for at least one play.

    You are right that different sports have different rules. However, if a rule creates a potential for cheating, it must be changed. If there is an object on the ice that could create danger for a skater, it is very clearly visible, so the skater should not be penalized for it. However, an injury or sickness cannot always proven to be real, and it creates an unfair competition. A deduction is fair for a break in the program for most reasons, including equipment issues, costume issues, and stopping the music, because there is a potential for cheating in it (remember Tonya's shoelaces in the 1994 Olympics?). The exceptions need to be clearly stated in the rules. In the current form, there is a risk of an unfair competition.
     
  17. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    :confused:

    Every article I have read says that Tessa Virtue had a "cramp." Does a cramp amount to a "medical reason" for stopping skating? I am not sure that it does.

    Here is an extract from a National Insitutes of Health abstract of an article on the subject:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8784961?dopt=Abstract

    I think at least as reasonable an argument can be made that a skater should not be able to restart after stopping because of a cramp as it can be for a skater who stops after experiencing a problem with his equipment or costume. If, for example, a skater is responsible for making sure his laces are tied, should he not also be responsible for stretching, conditioning, and mental preparation?

    I'm not saying that the argument is right, only that it is reasonable.
     
  18. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

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    Nobody wants to see the skater embarrassed due to costume malfunction, but the skater should accept the penalty for having to take a break. I don't consider this "beyond a skater's control" because skaters should pick costumes that would not fall off, and should check their costumes before the competition to make sure there is no broken strap, etc.

    IMO the discussion is not really about whether a skater should be allowed a break or not; it's about whether there should be a deduction for taking a break. If the deduction is big enough, skaters might be more careful in using that break.
     
  19. MacMadame

    MacMadame Cat Lady-in-Training

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    I'm not counting equipment issues because I think those stops are okay and should continue to be allowed.
     
  20. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    That actually happened, a few years ago. A Russian dancer was doing compulsory dance at either Europeans or Worlds and the dress malfunctioned. Her breast did pop out but she continued.
     
  21. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    I think you are making assumptions on moral values of individuals within sport. But people vary; some are honest and some are happy to cheat if given opportunity. If everyone was so honest and wanted win only the fair way, there wouldn't need to be any drug tests, because no one would even consider taking drugs to enhance their performance. But reality is, some do. And some are willing to go into such length as risking their own health to get even tiny advantage, so if a skater has a chance to cheat by claiming that they are injured and take a break in the middle of their program while they are not penalised, are you certain that none of the skaters would ever consider using it? Do you really believe that every skater would be so honest if it was a fight for gold olympic medal?
     
  22. rayhaneh

    rayhaneh New Member

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    I admit I've never done competitive skating so I can only relate with dancing. But I can tell you that stopping in the middle of a performance, for whatever reason, is NEVER an advantage, because it takes you out of your interpretation and it breaks the rhythm of the performance, and getting back into it is not easy

    So while I totally agree with you that some athletes would probably cheat given the occasion, I don't think they would cheat on that because faking an injury to get a break wouldn't give them any kind of advantage, especially in dance which relies even more on rhythm of interpretation than singles and pairs.....
     
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  23. elif

    elif Active Member

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    Its advantage. For example If Virtue/Moir hadn't stopped, just skip the lift they will have to lost 10.43 points. PCS doesn't cost that much. Virtue/Moir's highest PCS ever 57. something and they get 56. something for 2013 4CC.

    Imagine: Trankov can't lift Volosozhar at one of the their lifts and because they know instead of continue they can easily stop, repeat their lift, get their medal. :saint:
     
  24. Japanfan

    Japanfan Well-Known Member

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    I don't know why V&M's lift was not considered aborted and they were allowed to redo it. I guess the judges determined that they stopped skatingbefore entering the lift?

    I am personally okay with rules allowing skaters to restart a program - I was okay with Zhangs silver medal in Turino. It gives countries a chance to retain or gain spots, rather than lose spots, and gives skaters a chance to earn a total score. Plus, skaters learn to push through injuries and compete with injuries. Punishing them for a stop due to an injury issue, or not allowing them to restart the program, undermines the development of this important attribute.

    Perhaps some skaters used to stop programs in order to get a chance to redo elements, but I don't thinks that the primary reason, at least in recent times. Injury disrupts a program and because of that, skaters lose more than they gain. V&M probably knew they didn't have a chance of winning 4CCs after they interrupted the program. They were in first place after the SD and had a good shot at winning. Losing by 3 points was huge and they would have saved face better by just bowing out due to injury.

    For the most part, skaters' mentality is to finish the program at all costs. It would have to be trained into them young, as otherwise more skaters would quit mid-program just because the nerves got to them or they were having a bad outing. I'm sure it does happen on occasion, but getting through programs with injuries is far more the norm.

    I can't imagine it. It would be extremely difficult to time it right and make the moment look authentic. In addition, the program would be disrupted and that net effects of that could be a score lower than it would have been had the program been skated continuously with an aborted lift.
     
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  25. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    Taking a break of more than 10 seconds for pain or medical issues should be a -3.0 penalty. At major events, skaters should have the option of stopping and restarting in a worst case scenario. I think a stop due to a non-equipment failure should be allowed at Euros/Worlds/Olympics but with a -3.0 penalty.

    At lesser events I say tough luck to everyone. Once you stop your program you're done. I don't care if you have the wind knocked out of you. You need to get off the ice and see a doctor unless it is Europeans or Worlds. Better luck next time.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2013
  26. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    It is a huge advantage. Have you noticed how breathless Tessa Virtue was when they stopped? And 3 minutes is long enough to bring your pulse rate back down. when skater is breathless/tired etc, they are more likely to do mistakes. So skating with having a break in between and drink of water is really huge advantage.

    When I come from holiday and I am out of shape, my coach usually let me do my run throughs in two parts. So if it is helping me, why it wouldn't be helping them?
     
  27. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely! I am curious when pairs will catch up on the new trends in figure skating! Why to do a program in one piece if you can have a break, drink and then do the lifts and rest of the jumps...
     
  28. elif

    elif Active Member

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    This is the problem. Virtue/Moir get their SB at 4CC. They get 103 at RC 104 at SC 108 at GPF and with a break middle of the program they get 109 at 4CC :confused: I didn't know this rule until Rostelecom Cup, but now :yikes:

    Maybe Elene Ilinykh will fell just before the step sequence. If she don't have a time to stand up, she can fake a injury. Why lose some levels and GOE? Or maybe Davis/White will stumble or fell just before their twizzle and they will stop because they can fake a injury and do their twizzles with fresh legs. Why lose couple of points at poor quality twizzles? Sotnikova or Gold or Kostner can stop and take her time for second half of the program and get 0.1 bonus too. Fernandez can take a break before his quad. Why not? You can't lose points with this rule. Just look at the protocols.:scream:
     
  29. rayhaneh

    rayhaneh New Member

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    Ok, so this is not a theoretical debate. You build this argumentation because you believe Tessa Virtue cheated - you should have said so :lol:

    While stopping may allow you to catch your breath, your adrenaline levels will also go down, your mental focus will change and you run the risk of not being "in" your program anymore, which actually increases the risks of making mistakes once you continue. Again, from my experience of actually having to stop in the middle of a competition, I believe the risks outweight the advantages. It certainly never crossed my mind to stop as a convenience :D

    And you can't compare training run throughs with competition - that's just not the same thing

    Ice dancing judging lets a lot to be desired as a whole - the issue of V/M's marks at 4CC is just part of a much larger problem. Frankly, D/W's overly inflated marks didn't make much sense to me either (even though their victory suffered no discussion) :rolleyes:
     
  30. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    Hang on, I have not accused her of cheating! I noted that she was breathless. While I am not disputing whether she was or wasn't injured (by the way, do cramps count as an injury?), the bottom line is that she restarted after having a drink and rest, her pulse again lowered. So no matter if she was injured or not, the fact still remain that while being breathless/tired she would be more likely making mistake than when skating breathless (that's true for everyone, not just Tessa). So they did have advantage.