Russian Ladies

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by eurodance2001, Dec 26, 2013.

  1. eurodance2001

    eurodance2001 Active Member

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    As expected, Sotnikova and Lipnitskaya have gone 1-2 with Radionova finishing third, Proklova fourth and Leonova 5th.. Pogoriliaya and Tuk bombed to finish 8th and 10th.. It seems pretty clear whom will be sent now to Sochi and Worlds...

    http://fsrussia.ru/upl/results/1314/rusnat1314/SEG012.HTM
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2013
  2. RFOS

    RFOS Well-Known Member

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    I haven't watched yet, but it doesn't sound like Pogorilaya and Tuktamysheva bombed, the depth is just such that with so-so/just decent performances they finished that low because so many other skaters were better.
     
  3. eurodance2001

    eurodance2001 Active Member

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    Their short programs were weak.. Here's Anna's for example: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2cWVnXsR7x0

    Combo touchdown and possible downgrade, tight triple loop, bobble on flying spin..
     
  4. eurodance2001

    eurodance2001 Active Member

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    I know there's a Russian Sochi thread already open, but that one has been hijacked it seems by Plushy-gate..
     
  5. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to Nationals!

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    Last edited: Dec 27, 2013
  6. Blondie12

    Blondie12 New Member

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    I wonder who they will send as alternate. I never heard of the 4th place finisher. Is she a junior? Maybe Leonova will be the alternate

    If anything Adelina can certainly rock Russian nationals. If only she could do what she does there other places....
     
  7. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    The girls eligible for Euros/Olys/Worlds are as follows in the places they finished:

    1. Sotnikova (1 SP, 2 FS)
    2. Lipnitskaya (2 SP, 1 FS)
    5. Leonova (4 SP, 7 FS)
    8. Pogorilaya (10 SP, 5 FS)
    9. Gosviani (6 SP, 10 FS)
    10. Tuktamysheva (9 SP, 9 FS)

    So unless they make an exception for Liza, the 1st alternate for the Olympics and 3rd entrant for Euros is likely to be between Leonova and Pogorilaya. Leonova placed ahead of Pogorilaya here by a fair margin (7 points), but nearly all of it was in PCS, and even with the deficit Pogorilaya was able to overtake her in the FS, so Pogorilaya may still be considered due to her winning gold and bronze at her GP events, qualifying for the GPF, scoring 170+ in all her international competitions this season, and beating Leonova in the FS here at Nationals.

    If it were up to me I'd sent Pogo to Europeans as she's proven herself well enough this season and probably have her as 1st alternate to the Olympics as well. I could see Liza being named as 1st alternate for the Olympics though tentatively and sending Leonova to Euros and then depending on how she does there switch her for 1st alternate if necessary. Looking at the scoring at Nationals, it would seem that Pogorilaya would have a decent chance to make the JW team should she chose to compete at Junior Nationals. She lost to Sahkanovich and Medvedeva here by a slim margin but beat both in the FS and in PCS in both programs, so I would think, if they all go clean at Junior Nationals, Pogorilaya would come out ahead. Not sure how she'd stack up next to Proklova and Sotskova so it still might not cut it, but she does have a shot. Honestly though, with the success Pogo had on the senior circuit and her consistency this season, I think she'd be better off going to Euros. In my opinion she's done enough to deserve it, but idk if the Fed will see it the same way, looking at the scoring, it seems they are pushing for Leonova more than Pogorilaya, even though Leonova is past her peak and Pogorilaya is on the rise and has a bright future IMO. I don't think one shaky SP from Pogo and one good one from Leonova should be enough to give Leonova the ticket to Euros but we'll see...

    Does anyone know when an official announcement will be made?
     
  8. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

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    They did not exactly bomb, but a fall in the SP in a very competitive field is a big setback (Liza)

    Pogo's SP skate was very sloppy; spins were awful. She did 3Lz2t but stepped out of the 2t. So not exactly a bomb, but since many others were skating clean with 3Lz3t and better spins, etc. she placed low.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2013
  9. KimGOAT

    KimGOAT Active Member

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    Yes Lipnitskaia and Sotnikova are now certain to go to Sochi and Worlds. They could probably both skip Europeans altogether if they want to, since nothing any girl could go there would jeapordize there spot, even someone winning with a 220. The only question is who is the 3rd girl they will name to Europeans, and who will be the 1st and 2nd alternates to Europeans (important as someone might well skip that) and 1st alternate for both Olympics and Worlds.
     
  10. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

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    I don't think either Lip or Sot will skip the Europeans. It's their chance to get more international exposure and establish themselves going into the Olympics. If either one beats Carolina, it will put her in a very good position in Sochi.
     
  11. RFOS

    RFOS Well-Known Member

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    It was a bit shaky, but we're definitely spoiled these days if those spins are considered "awful." OK, the flying camel was pretty bad but I'd do a +1 on the other two. And she did a 3Lz+3T, though the 3T looked < with a touchdown, so -2 there. Loop was fine, if I were to take off for anything it would be the moderate pause going in, and the double axel was very nice. She did trip slightly in the footwork I noticed. It's a testament to how amazing the field is that that was only good enough for 10th place and I'll look forward to watching more of the performances soon. :)
     
  12. bek

    bek Guest

    I think the Russians would want both girls at Euros. And even if one or both bombed they'd still be on the Olympic team. This after all was the team they wanted.
     
  13. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

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    Many of these ladies would have won the championships in some other countries.
     
  14. valyrian

    valyrian New Member

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    Liza, Liza, Liza...I do wish she'd get another coach. Her skates here weren't exactly disasters, but I am appalled at her stagnation over the past several seasons. She has a lot of talent and fire and I'm willing to excuse her recent jump problems as inevitable because of her growth spurt, but there are many other aspects of her skating that her team should have been working on over the years and haven't.
     
  15. AxelAnnie

    AxelAnnie Well-Known Member

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    I can't imagine they won't go to Euros. They need as much exposure and practice as they can get, I would think.
     
  16. bek

    bek Guest

    When I said the team the Russian fed wanted- its also their best team. I'm thrilled though that both girls skated really well and left no doubt about who belongs in Sochi!
     
  17. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

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    It's also good that the 3rd member of that team is an older skater with previous experience (although Adelina has been there once). Had it been Anna Pogorilaya (and I do respect her competitiveness and consistency), it would have been yet another 15 year old, going to her first Euros.
     
  18. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    While I feel bad for Anna as I feel she's the one that deserves the spot more, I do agree with this. After seeing what happened to Korobeynikova at Worlds in 2012 as a 15 year old, I imagine the Fed would have to be wary of the situation. Plus there's the chance with Anna and Julia being so young that one of them could experience an abrupt growth spurt of sorts that could really through their whole skating off. I don't think it's likely to happen, but, you do have to wonder, when the girls don't have textbook jump technique and are doing very difficult combos, without looking that strong physically yet and having such narrow hips. I guess on the one hand, they might be better now than they will ever be in the future, but no one really knows when "the future" will arrive or whatnot.
     
  19. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    I can't see anything wrong with "yet another 15 year old, going to her first Euros". Adelina and Liza did pretty well last year, both getting medals. Gosviani skated decently too, considering that it was her first big international competition. Unlike the others, she had not done JGP events or junior worlds so for her it was really big senior competition without any preparations with bigger junior or senior competitions. I remember what happened to Korobeynikova at Worlds in 2012, but on the other hand one must also remember what happened to Korobeynikova at Europeans in 2012.
     
  20. poths

    poths Well-Known Member

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    They would have won THIS championships a few years back..Doronina, anyone...? Petushkova? Ievleva? Gerboltd? They were the cream of the crop like 6 years ago :lol:
     
  21. rfisher

    rfisher Satisfied skating fan

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    Exactly. When there is the depth and amount of talent there is among the current Russian ladies, very good skaters are never going to win medals and some will never get the chance to skate in senior international events. Russia has gone from poverty to riches in their ladies. It's unfortunate for some of the skaters, but that's the nature of the sport when your second and third tier of athletes are superior to many other teams/countries top tiers.

    This level of talent also makes it very difficult for skaters to have time to really grow and develop. Kostner has had the luxury of years because there was nobody behind her to push her out of the way. That's not the case for the young Russian women. You make a mistake and there's somebody younger waiting to pounce. They are all so young and are just going through physical changes but there is no breathing room. Tuk is only 17 and she has had a lot of physical changes that I think she can adjust to in time; however, time isn't her friend. The men, OTOH, have that luxury. Kovtun and Gachinsky have plenty of time to develop over the next four years, but some of the ladies will quit skating because the competition is so fierce.
     
  22. DELTA

    DELTA Active Member

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  23. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    True, I wanted Pogo to get the spot and think she honestly deserves it more than Leonova and would probably do well/better than Leonova there, but I'm trying to give Leonova the benefit of the doubt I guess and trying to understand that there must be some reason Pogo's PCS were the way they were at Nationals even though internationally they are not much below the likes of Lipnitskaya and Sotnikova who both creamed her here.

    Idk, I guess it's just the shell shock of Anna's clean FS 124 score at TEB gets bumped down to a 121 at Nationals (and yes they were comparable skates, clean but labored in both), while Sotnikova's clean FS 129 score at TEB gets bumped up to a whopping 140 at Nationals (where she wasn't even quite clean), on the same day with the same judging panel. International judges thought Sotnikova was 5 points in PCS better than Pogorilaya that day, but at Nationals she's suddenly 13 points better. Makes me really wish Anna had just landed that axel in her SP at the GPF because then she would have beaten Adelina overall there, and not just in the FS (and that was with Anna having a pretty rough FS for her consistent standards), and maybe the judging at Nationals would have made a little more sense.

    Pogorilaya has been one of the top 3 strongest senior (or eligible - excluding Radionova due to age) ladies from Russia this season, one could even argue she was 2nd behind Julia due to Adelina being all over the place, and now she's not even going to Euros and probably won't make it to JW either. That is a dumb call on the RU fed's part IMO. Leonova is on her way out and doesn't have the content to be competitive with the top right now, and she's also inconsistent. Pogorilaya meanwhile is 15 and has the consistency and competitive mentality to really go places - and sure, I get she's gangly and a bit sloppy now, but she seems to have survived the worst part of puberty and her body type now suggests she might be one of the lucky ones who doesn't struggle mightily with their body as she gets older as she's long limbed and slender while also being strong, narrow-hipped, and not particularly tall. Eurosport already drools over how great she looks on the ice and how impressive her 3lz-3t is and yet the Fed is promoting Leonova instead - Leonova who is 23, has completely empty, transition-less programs, weak content, lines, and flexibility, little consistency or confidence, and has been on a steady downward spiral since the 2012 Worlds - um okay then.
     
  24. Nomad

    Nomad Well-Known Member

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    :rolleyes: Please. Your fetish for gawky, unpolished, junior-age skaters is all too well documented here.
     
    Stephanie and (deleted member) like this.
  25. love_skate2011

    love_skate2011 Well-Known Member

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    :rofl:
     
  26. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    Pinky166, be realistic. Anna has lovely jumps, they can be huge, but she is really, really unpolished and sloppy. When she competed internationally on junior circle, she stood out because she has all the hard jumps and jump combinations. At junior circle no one expected her to be polished. When she did GP events this autumn, there were not many seniors landing jumps, so she got away with messy presentation. Unfortunately for her, the level of competition at Russian nationals is much higher than at her GP events and also much higher than last year at junior worlds. So suddenly whatever Pogorilaya is showing, it is just not good enough. It is not enough to just land the jumps, because at least first 10 skaters that placed at the nationals (maybe even more) have exactly the same jumps. They all can do 3Lz-3T in their SP, they all do seven triples FS. So little things that may not have mattered last year at junior worlds matter now. Suddenly it is not only about landing, it is also about quality. For example that after quite a few jumps she did not have any running edge, that her presentation is a bit sloppy, that she hasn't obviously got used to her long limbs and doesn't know how to use her body so that it doesn't look all over the place... She definitely has a potential, but she is not quite there yet. I do agree that based on her results throughout the season she would deserve to be sent to Europeans more than Leonova; however, the Federation is choosing skaters based on the nationals, not on events throughout the season. Pogorilaya did not deliver when it counted.
     
  27. shady82

    shady82 Active Member

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    I actually think Pogorilaya's skating is reasonably polished, especially in her SP. Her jumps are also high quality - good ice coverage on her 3lutz-3toe. I don't understand why Pogo gets low PCS throughout the series while Sotnikova constantly is rewarded. Watching Adelina skate is exhausting for me because she flails her arms so much and puts in lots of transitions in her program, but they all seem incoherent and sloppy. I don't think anyone codewhores their programs as much as she does - lots of transitions and complexity, but little of it is done well. Her music also appears to be "dampened" or put into a techno version so it is more a monotone, making it easy for her to skate to. I've never seen someone flail their arms so much and so ineffectively.

    Ok, done with my rant. I just find Pogorilaya underrated in PCS and Sotnikova overrated. Maybe there are reasons why they get the scores they get, but I don't see them.
     
  28. DELTA

    DELTA Active Member

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    Pogorilaya's skating still looks juniorish
     
  29. Nomad

    Nomad Well-Known Member

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    But imagine what scores Pogorilaya might have posted if she were really polished - if she were consistently aware of her posture, her shoulder position, her hands; if she held out her moves and pointed her toes; if (to paraphrase Uncle Dick) she knew what the audience was looking at.
     
  30. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

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    I agree with you about Sotnikova's arms and I agree that she is overrated. Her PCS at nationals were a little too high.

    Anna, however, is rather unpolished. She won her GPs because others made mistakes and she skated nearly clean. I just think she needs more time on the senior circuit. She could have made the European team, if not the unexpected good skates by Leonova at the nationals. I don't think Anna is underrated. She does get points for her jumps, and I don't think that right now she deserves higher PCS.