Ron Pfenning Running for U.S. Figure Skating President

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Visaliakid, Jun 7, 2013.

  1. Visaliakid

    Visaliakid Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Jun 7, 2013
  2. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to GP & U.S. Sectionals!

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  3. Visaliakid

    Visaliakid Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Sylvia... silly error on my part. The link has been corrected.
     
  4. Lutzcy

    Lutzcy Active Member

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  5. joesk8judg

    joesk8judg New Member

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    I suppose since no one is posting on this thread, that there is little interest in the whole idea. I find this QUITE interesting.
     
  6. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to GP & U.S. Sectionals!

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    Not necessarily. I'm interested, for one. It should be noted that many participants here are from outside the U.S. and have little or no interest in USFS politics.
     
  7. Rochelle

    Rochelle Active Member

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    I'm interested. I agree with his thoughts on Governing Council, but that's not entirely a new idea as it's been discussed quite a bit over the past couple of years. His WSF involvement is a concern...

    I'd be very interested in seeing many more candidates pursuing the presidency... instead of an "oh, I don't want to step on anyone's toes so I'll just wait my turn" approach that appears to be taken by many well-versed, experienced, talented, leaders within our sport.
     
  8. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    I'm interested, but as I'm not from the US and don't know how USFS runs its executive elections, I haven't commented.

    That being said, I agree with Rochelle's statement about how there should be more candidates. This is a problem in Skate Canada as well. Sometimes "choosing" the executive is more like a coronation.
     
  9. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    So I wonder what he would do at the International level as the head of USFS. At the USFS level it seems so much more diffuse and no centralized and the power doesn't seem to be a lot even in regard to US skating!
     
  10. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to GP & U.S. Sectionals!

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    Pfenning has answered/is answering questions on his site:
    http://www.ronforus.com/q---a------news--1.html
    http://www.ronforus.com/q---a-con-t..html
     
  11. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    I only went to the iceskating link and missed that one! Well that answers a lot!
     
  12. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to GP & U.S. Sectionals!

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    http://www.ronforus.com/q---a------news--1.html
     
  13. joesk8judg

    joesk8judg New Member

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    ISU Rules 102 and 103 state the problem for Mr. Pfenning if elected and the issues it would cause for the skaters at the elite level which is a major consideration. In April 2005, the ISU Council issued a decision ruling that Ron Pfenning had breached the ISU eligibility rules and that as a consequence of such breach, he lost the ISU eligibility. No appeal was ever filed and the April 2005 decision of the Council was final. Rule 103 specifically provides that an ineligible person may not serve as a delegate to an ISU Congress, unless reinstated as an eligible person by the Council.
     
  14. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

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    Only in USFS circles would someone say in 2013 with a straight face, "IJS is here to stay."
     
  15. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    The ISU rules appear to apply to persons serving in ISU roles, and I don't see anything in those rules requiring a national federation's president to be a delegate to ISU congress. Surely there are other USFS executives who could advocate on the skaters' behalf if the ISU refused to deal with an "ineligible person".

    As I stated, I am not thoroughly familiar with how USFS elects its officials, but it seems to me to be setting a rather dangerous precedent to apply ISU rules to determine who is or isn't eligible to run for the presidency of a member federation. The ISU should not be dictating to its member federations who they are allowed to choose for their leaders.
     
  16. allezfred

    allezfred Hideous Admin Staff Member

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    I am the only one who finds the following disturbing:

    Surely, judges should not be in the business of supporting any particular skater, but judging fairly what they see in front of them?
     
  17. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^

    Whether or not any judges from whatever country should be "in the business of supporting any particular skater," surely you are not surprised at the reality that this clearly is not new(s) in figure skating, and in fact historically and traditionally has always been a huge factor ever present in how the sport is run and judged.

    Idealism, fairness and ethics vs politics and quid pro quo. Opposites that have always been debated in this sport. Perhaps some judges aspire and/ or struggle to conduct themselves with the former qualities foremost in mind, but under the complicated rules and political realities that exist (and have always existed), such an aspiration remains an elusive ideal. Somewhat similarly, art vs sport is constantly debated when figure skating at its essence is an amalgam of both. Not to mention 6.0 vs CoP/ IJS is constantly and fruitlessly debated, instead of the parties in power actually trying to figure out what parts of each system along with new approaches might work best in concert for the long term benefit and growth of the athletes and the sport.
     
  18. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    It's not exactly a revelation to anyone that figure skating judging can be biased.

    If I read Allezfred's post correctly, he was expressing surprise that a high-ranking official (and a judge himself, who just got a USFS award for 50 years of service) would openly say that US international judges should be supporting Team USA skaters.
     
  19. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    But what does he mean by "supporting"?

    Does he mean propping them up by overscoring them in competition? Are we so cynical that that's the first meaning that comes to mind?

    Could be in the same way that fans support their local team, that skating club members -- including judges, by participation in their own and other clubs' competitions -- support their club members. Whereas disdaining the competitions as less important than staying home and playing politics would be considered lack of support.
     
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  20. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ Thanks for your input, gkelly. Indeed!

    And also, I will admit that hard as it is to believe in this sport, there may be some judges who actually achieve the elusive ideal, or at least believe they do, or at least make a hearty effort to be fair against all odds. ;)


    Hmmm, is being undercover and surreptitious more respectable than being open. :duh:
     
  21. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    Which is more respectable is up to you to decide.

    And no, it isn't hard to believe that "there may be some judges" who are fair. There are MANY judges who are fair, and who are scrupulous about being fair, and who give unpaid hours and hours of effort to a sport that they love. The bad apples are in no way representative of the majority of judges.
     
  22. UMBS Go Blue

    UMBS Go Blue KWEEN 2016! YES WE KWAN!

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    Beyond insidious POLITIK implications, international judges can "support" their federation's skaters by, more innocuously, providing feedback and advice, in non-competition environments, to their own federation's skaters as to what international judges are actually grading and looking for.
     
  23. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ Very fair, very idealistic.

    Yes, I suppose it's not hard to believe in theory perhaps or in actuality especially if you happen to have personally met each judge individually, or served as a judge yourself. ;)


    BTW, good luck to Ron Pfenning.
     
  24. joesk8judg

    joesk8judg New Member

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    There is no way my experience as a world judge cost the association of the US $100,000. I spent $10,000 of my OWN money working up the ladder to become a national judge and 10 years to do so, and I have IRS records to show as such. We paid all our own costs while trialing each level for competition as well as testing level which was required years ago. The costs for international competitions are mostly ISU paying most of the expenses and a portion of the plane ticket; all room and board is payed by the ISU for these functions. All USFS competitions, testing sessions ( miles travelled to the session only, food is provided if a long day) are funded by the US. I think Ron forgets to say that we do this for NO PAY, it is for our love of this sport to give back from the time we skated. Some of us have backgrounds which have directly given extra balance to the judging panel, and ALL of the international judges have continuous education provided by the ISU. There are schools in the US and most of the expenses are up to the judges attending. They pay a fee to attend mostly for food, etc. IT IS NOT FREE. SO I take issue with this amount of money spent on judges, as it sounds as if we were GIVEN money to do as we pleased. We spend long days judging, and test sessions are very long at times, during figure days, VERY long. Ron's actions with WSF caused his life long suspension from the ISU in the end, but this is not reason to criticize WHY of the other people who have NOT DECLARED they are running in the first place. There is a process for this as much in life has a structure for how something is done: the nomination committee sends out a memo that anyone can send in their resume to the committee for consideration for the job concerned around the fall of the year, then the nomination committee puts forward a slate, and then if there are no objections or if someone is to run from the floor at the next governing council meeting of the US, then there is a ballot vote for the candiates, if not, the slate is accepted by acclaimation. Ron has decided to start running early before the process is begun. There is not rule that says he cannot do this. I just wanted to let everyone who reads what is being written that there are some issues with the way many points have been stated such as this $100,000 being spent which seem stretched to fit an agenda. We judges serve the association for the love of helping skaters achieve their dreams from the club skater to the elite skater, and this is why we go at 6:30 of 7 in the morning to begin a test session, or a monitoring session for our skaters, or a local competition. Most of the money he speaks of is money spent for housing, food, etc, and travel: why should we PAY to do this for the association, as we do NOT RECEIVE pay for what we do, ONLY expenses. So how can one say the association has spent this much money on us, as much of it is provided by the ISU in the international realm. I was going to stay silent, but I cannot, as it now has hit home and what is being said at times is only part of the truth. It is selective picking of what information you want out there with your own political spin. I am sure I will be "trashed" for writing this reply, but one supports skating by staying IN an organization to help make it better, not try a new one to replace the old one, as THAT is a misguided assumption in my opinion. It would have caused our skaters at the elite level to not be able to go to who knows how many Olympics or Worlds, or any ISU even while the new group would be trying to meet the requirement necessary to become a governing body of figure skating if the US had joined this organization. Who knows what other federations around the world would have joined for the reason above and one that follows. Read the Olympic charter as to what is required to be the recognized body of a sport for the Olympics. I am dissapointed in how this is unfolding, as it has started to get "nasty" now with the putting down of people when asking, "why should they run" and the reasons the two women mentioned were being passed over. How does HE know this.
     
  25. Visaliakid

    Visaliakid Well-Known Member

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    I find this argument against Ron Pfenning to be a non-starter. The ISU cannot and should not have any say as to the person elected as President of any of it's member federations/associations. U.S. Figure Skating elected presidents are not often/if seldom the ISU Representative to the council. The current USFS representative to the ISU is not President Pat St. Peter. The idea that Ron Pfenning could not successfully lead the USFS in it's National programs and goals because he no longer is a member of any standing within the ISU, is simply preposterous!
     
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  26. joesk8judg

    joesk8judg New Member

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    the ISU does not have any say as you presented. It is up to the governing body, the clubs and athletes' group to chose a president. He just will not be able to be credentialed or be apart of any meetings with the ISU which our president is invovled with constantly.
     
  27. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    I'm a lowly skating fan with no intention to "trash" btw, but from your above comments I wonder do you also condemn others who were initially publicly supportive of the WSF effort, including Dick Button, Scott Hamilton, and Paul Wylie?

    Granted the effort proved to be ill-planned, ill-timed and thus ultimately misguided. Did you speak out against it publicly or privately at the time?
     
  28. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    Have you met every judge individually? Have you served as a judge yourself? The fact that I have not doesn't make your conceptualization of the world the correct one.

    And I am not being idealistic. I am stating what I have observed over more than 20 years of being actively involved in skating. If over that time I had seen that the majority of judges were crooked, biased, greedy or self-serving, I would be saying exactly that.
     
  29. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ Well, I suppose your conceptualizations and ideals are on target, even if you seem a tad grumpy.

    ITA, judges are human too and deserve some love and respect, especially those in the majority who are not "bad apples." ;)
     
  30. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    I took that to mean that judges would provide feedback to skaters and give clinics/presentations.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2013