Rivals from same country where national judges preference differs from international

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Seerek, Sep 21, 2013.

  1. Sedge

    Sedge Active Member

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    Chan won his first National title over Buttle in 2008 fair and square ( nothing to do with preference) and went on to place 8th at 2008 Worlds which Buttle won.
    Apart from Russia France and Japan..I think there is usually justification for the National placements and not just random preference. ( Yagudin Vs Plushenko eg..Asada Vs Suzuki)
     
  2. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Bonaly and Kiellmann (forget which skated 1st and which 2nd), Harding, Ito, Kerrigan, Yamaguchi
     
  3. UGG

    UGG Well-Known Member

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    I have never thought Rachel Flatt was robbed of anything.

    She was an ordinary skater who should be thankful that the US ladies were in a slump. Any other era, she would be like 10th at Nationals.

    And honestly, she should not be mentioned in the same category as the "truly greats". She was a consistent skater who had no pressure on her shoulders and placed top 5 at worlds one time. When speaking of "truly greats"...this is very "meh".

    I am not a hater at all-I loved her performance at 2013 nats- I in no way thought she deserved to be on the podium but I enjoyed her performance the most.
     
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  4. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    So, they were saving room for Ito, Kerrigan, and Yamaguchi in the LP at 1991 Worlds after Harding skated, and probably legitimately so. Harding probably lost 1991 Worlds due to the scoring system. It was not like at 1989 Nationals, where the judge left almost no room for Harding after Yamaguchi skated.
     
  5. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    True, but I think they score the people to come later accordingly. Had Harding skated better, even if her marks werent much different, Yamaguchi's with a singled salchow would have been.
     
  6. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

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    Harding had some bad music cuts no doubt, but her scores for Artistry really weren't bad at the 91 worlds. As Judy said they actually were pretty high. Remember too Yamaguchi didn't have her 3/3 yet, had been handily defeated by Harding at nationals, and while her program was good it certainly wasn't any artistic masterpeice. Harding needed another clean triple (even though she landed the 3A) for the judges to reasonably place her over Yamaguchi with only 1 missed salchow. As is often the case in Hardings career what could have been.
     
  7. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I was going to say Johnny and Evan, but then I reminded myself Evan has actually had it pretty easy beating Johnny internationally from 2005 Worlds onwards. In fact Johnny was more competitive with Evan at Nationals (2005, 2006, 2008) than he ever was internationally by that point.
     
  8. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    What are you talking about ? Michelle fell at Worlds, not at the Nationals. The only thing I could agree with you on Michelle vs Sasha is 2005 Worlds SP. Michelle was perfect, Sasha was not, and Sasha came ahead of Michelle in the SP. ;)

    About Philippe Candeloro and Eric Millot, I was more thinking about 1993 French Nationals, Millot won (but I think he didn't deserve it), but in fact, at Euros and Worlds, Candeloro was ahead of Millot.
    Probably not a good example, I agree. ;)
     
  9. leapfrogonice

    leapfrogonice Active Member

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    Back in the 6.0 days, I think this type of thing was more evident. These days, it seems tougher to say there is a distinct pattern as the potential for placement changes on very minor point differentials is that much more possible.

    Amongst the ladies today, I did find it interesting how well received Christina Gao was received internationally. And perhaps it is not totally reflective of how she is viewed by domestic judges, but her placement at nationals does not commensurately reflect the impressiveness of her results internationally. Last season especially.
     
  10. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Nationals she landed only 5 triples and was flat. Worlds she landed 5 triples, but slightly two footed the 5th and atleast was more spirited before the fall. Not a big difference IMO. Her Worlds LP scored about 114, I would guess her Nationals LP about 115 had she done it at Worlds.

    Either way with 4 perfect 6.0s for a completely ordinary performance at Nationals, which as a Kwan fan I was almost insulted by as it almost degraded many of her past worthy 6.0s at Nationals, it is clear there was a MUCH stronger preference to her at Nationals than at Worlds that year regardless how she would have skated. :lol: At Nationals Kwan would have had to be subpar (which she was somewhat) and Cohen amazing for Cohen to have possibly won. At Worlds that same year by the scores it is clear the exact reverse was true. Hence in line with this thread.
     
  11. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I really do think that had more to do with COP than anything. Once you have it from a caller that Kwan did low-level elements, there's not much for judges to do. I also think she was being hit with punitive scores for not doing the GP series for three seasons in a row (yes I know she did Skate America in 2002, but she qualified for the GPF and didn't do it), and there was some negativity about her lack of transitions (although I really didn't think the ladies in general had much in terms of transitions and Plushenko was the king of figure skating during that time and we all know where he stands on that).

    Don't forget that Kwan also got a slew of 6.0s for her five-triple Worlds 2004 performance (more 6.0s than Arakawa and Cohen in the presentation mark), overtaking Cohen's LP despite the fact that I think Kwan did less triples than Cohen and her spins were simpler and being one judge away from winning the LP. Of course, Kwan got a boost from the keeping it together after the "streaker" incident and it being the final Worlds under the 6.0 system.
     
  12. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    for US skaters:

    Zawadzki > Gao (Nationally), Gao > Zawadzki (Internationally)

    Brown > Farris (Nationally), Farris > Brown (Internationally) <--- yes, I know Farris beat Brown at Nationals this season, but that was because he skated better than Brown at that event, in past years, Farris has received lower PCS scores and placements compared to Brown, even when they make comparable errors. Internationally, they always have comparable PCS and Farris usually wins due to higher TES.

    Flatt > Nagasu (Nationally), Nagasu > Flatt (Internationally) <-- again, same thing with Farris and Brown, I know Mirai did beat Rachael at Nationals in 2008.

    Czisny > Wagner (Nationally), Wagner > Czisny (Internationally) <-- in general, Alissa's PCS are always huge at Nationals, not so internationally

    Hicks > Cesario (Nationally), Cesario > Hicks (Internationally) <-- Hicks' scores are never that high internationally, but domestically, they have been high

    Lam, Siraj > Wang, Miller (Nationally), Wang, Miller > Lam, Siraj (Internationally) <-- when comparing JGP scores to Nationals scores, Yasmin and Vanessa never get marked very high internationally but always place and score well at Nationals

    Rippon > Dornbush (Nationally), Dornbush > Rippon (Internationally) <-- Adam hasn't been much of a factor internationally the past few seasons, yet always scores well at Nationals, whereas Ricky can put up high marks internationally when he delivers, but has finished behind Rippon at Nationals 3 of the past 4 seasons.

    Miner > Farris, Dornbish (Nationally), Farris, Dornbush > Miner (Internationally) <-- Ross had a big PCS advantage over Farris and Dornbush at Nationals the past 2 seasons, even though internationally their SBs have been pretty comparable the past 2 seasons, and Farris has had more good showings internationally compared to Miner, and Dornbush about the same amount.


    In other Nations

    Song > Yan (Nationally), Yan > Song (Internationally) <-- Song consistently beats Yan at domestic events, but Yan always has much higher PCS than Song internationally and generally puts up higher scores

    Sotnikova > Lipnitskaya (Nationally), Lipnitskaya > Sotnikova (internationally) <-- Julia beat Adelina (by a huge margin!) at JW 2012 after Adelina had won Nationals, on the GP last season, Lipnitskaya did much better than Sotnikova

    Voronov > Kovtun (Nationally), Kovtun > Voronov (Internationally) <-- Voronov is not competitive internationally these days, his PCS are so low, yet he always does well at Nationals, beat Kovtun by a huge margin last season, then Kovtun beat him handily at Euros, even with Zayaking.

    Verner > Brezina (Nationally), Brezina > Verner (internationally) <-- oddly enough, Verner has managed to win Nationals a couple times in the past few years, even though internationally his results have been awful and Brezina is still in the mix when he skates well.


    I'm sure there are others.
     
  13. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Regardless I always thought from 2004 onwards anyway Cohen was a bigger threat to finish over Kwan outside of Nationals than she was at Nationals. Just a feeling, but it was also reflected in results. One can analyze the performances, this one skated better here or there, but I think Cohen would have come out ahead even in 2004 with similar performances (the short program judging at those Worlds made that especialy obvious) and I dont think the same holds true at Nationals. I sense Kwan was still the USFSA golden girl at that point, but international judges were ready for Sasha time, and ready to see her win some of the big titles (even if she herself was never ready).

    IMO Kwan's 2004 Worlds performance >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> her 2005 Nationals performance even if both technically had 5 triples and the same mistake. She thinks so too, just compare her reaction at the end of the 2 programs. For one thing of course Tosca was a way better program than Bolero. I also disregard every single 6.0 that occured at the 2004 Worlds, even the ones that might have been deserved for obvious reasons. When Winkler & Lohse get a 6.0, Pang & Tong get a 6.0 for artistry, and Navka & Kostomarov get a Torvill & Dean esque 12 6.0s for a cartoonish dance, it pretty much invalidates every 6.0 for the whole event. Not to mention Kostner getting a 5.9 for technical merit for this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGZ8Gu_shO0

    That Worlds could have been renamed the 'Tribute to 6.0 and old days of German Glory (aka two home cooked bronzes as a tribute present) week.
     
  14. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Just to note I am not dissing the 2004 Worlds. It was one of my favorite of all time, the mens and pairs events were spectacular, and the energy in the crowd was amazing and surprising given the decline in German skating since the 80s. The excessively high scoring and liberal scoring was almost entertaining in a quirky way. I was also happen to see the Germans get a bit of a boost as they hosted such a great event, and their skaters did skate well even if I dont think the medals would have happened in any other location.
     
  15. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    You think, the national judges preference differs from international in Plu/Yag's case. This is one of the widespread but false opinions in this forum. Thanks to Youtube we can check it, what happened in 1999, 2000, 2001. I found this channel http://www.youtube.com/user/RussianNationals . You can find their some SP's and LP's. If you don't want to see the programs, you can read TEC summaries under the videos.
    For ex. 1999.
    Yag's Lp- 3A, 4T(fall), 3A-1T, FS, 3F, CiSt, 3Lo, SeSt, 3Lz-3T, 3S(ice-touch), CCo, FS
    Plu's LP- 4T(fall), 3A, 3Lo ,CS, 2A, 3Lz-2T, CiSt, CoC, 3F, 3A-2T, biellmann spin, 3S, CCo

    I think the Russian judges's decision was good, and that wasn't a negative bias towards Alexei. He made mistakes in RN, but he didn't in international competitons.
     
  16. screech

    screech Well-Known Member

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    Not with Chan, but Buttle was favoured more internationally over Sandhu, who seemed to fare much better nationally (at least until 2005) than Jeff. Mind you, until 2005, Jeff never had his best skates at Canadians.
     
  17. unicorn

    unicorn Member

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    Both of them fell on the quad, Yagudin had two scratchy landings, but still he did 7 triples vs Plushenko 6, and Plushenko's 3F was almost a lip, Yagudin did a 3lz-3t at the second half of the program right after the SeSt while Plushenko only did 3-2, footwork, Yagudin's serpentine FS vs Plushenko straight line FS. Yagudin was right, he didn't do well but still should be enough to win. IMO, go either way to say the least, but they gave the win to Plushenko, there's one judge even ridiculously put Yagudin third, gave him same technical marks as Urmanov who fell twice, only finished 5 triples and no jump combinations. Isn't that a clear enough signal? It's not the mistakes, look at 95 RN, lots of people said that Kulik should have won, but the judges gave the win to Urmanov and Kulik won over Urmanov at 95 euros right after. And 2000 sp, they gave Plushenko 3 6s for presentation at RN, while he lost the sp to Yagudin at worlds by a 1:8 split with no mistakes, and it's not just the judges thought Yagudin clearly should win, and commentators stated before marks came out that Yagudin should be the leader, the quality of Yagudin's edges, jumps, footwork just better.

    And yes, Yagudin usually did very poor at RN, especially after 99 RN he thought the RN was a just a joke. and considering some other backstage tricks, for example he had no ice time in Russia, Piseev blamed that problem on Tarasova. And he usually only showed up just the day before the competition and competed with jet leg. I was actually amused that he still got 2nd every time. In a word, their competing condition was different at RNs, made the RNs simply no reference value.
     
  18. unicorn

    unicorn Member

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    Oh, So what, Yagudin beat some elite skaters when he was 13, he beat fresh Olympic champion Urmanov when he was 15, at 17 too, all at international competitions. There are tons of other exmples of younger skaters beat elder competitors. Plushenko beat Yagudin in 2001 when Yagudin was already a 3 time world champion and wasn't as eagerly craving for the titles as Plushenko did. The 2002 season has more reference value when they both so much wanted to win, It ended up Plushenko didn't win any big titles that year and their Olympic competition was a sweep. No matter what Plushenko fans think it is, their rivalry was pretty much hyped, Plushenko was a good challenger and held up a little bit by the politics. Lots of other famous rivalries in the history, their competing records at the worlds and Olympics were pretty close. Browning and Petrenko, their competing record during 88-92 was a 3:3, even Yuna kim and Mao Asada, their worlds and olympic titles during 06-10 period were 2:2, Yagudin/Plushenko with Yagudin 4 worlds +1 Olympics that's 5 vs Plushenko 1.
     
  19. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I was wondering which rivalry would "take over" this thread. Glad to see it's Plush/Yags.
     
  20. itoaxel

    itoaxel Member

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    Yagudin is too great a skater to believe Plushenko would beat him every year at Russian Nationals without some politics. If those are the jumps they did at the 99 Nationals then Yagudin definitely should have won. Yagudin with no quad and 7 triples should crush Plushenko with no quad and 6 triples back then. Plushenko was miles behind Yagudin artistic impression then.

    Although at the 98 Russian Nationals didnt Kulik skate cleanly in the short and still lose to a clean Yagudin with the same jumps? That was a surprise.
     
  21. unicorn

    unicorn Member

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    I don't think that's because Yagudin felt he's too great a skater to believe Plushenko beat him every year at RN without politics. But the key event was the 99 RN, after that he just lost the interest to take RN seriously. He knew if he and Plushenko skated closely they would give the win to Plushenko, that's enough. And look at those 6s Plushenko got from RN as long as he skated clean( I wonder how many 6s those real stylists like Petrenko got at SCs), he has a reason to believe if the judges want, simply there's no way for him to win.
     
  22. ciocio

    ciocio Active Member

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    Of course their rivalry was overhyped, especially by NBC :shuffle:, Yagudin was already a very strong skater when Plushenko started to compete as a senior and no matter his talent, he clearly wasn't a true rival. Later, almost every year one of them or even both were injured. In how many competitions they were both clean and skated at the same level?
    Regarding the results at Russian Nationals, Yagudin benefited from this story, that Russian judges were politicking against him, why was Yagudin always supported by USA judges in international competitions? We can check some NBC fluffs and the answer is there (God bless NBC).
    Unfortunately, a lot of fans were engaged in the Cold War story between Yagudin and Plushenko and very few noticed that no matter who was 1st in international competitions, Russia was winning anyway ( I swear I've always seen the Russian flag and heard the Russian anthem :lol:). Russian Federation supported both of them when it really mattered, so they get 1 and 2, the order wasn't relevant to them. :hat1:

    Wikipedia:

    Alexei Konstantinovich Yagudin (Russian: About this sound &#1040;&#1083;&#1077;&#1082;&#1089;&#1077;&#1081; &#1050;&#1086;&#1085;&#1089;&#1090;&#1072;&#1085;&#1090;&#1080;&#1085;&#1086;&#1074;&#1080;&#1095; &#1071;&#1075;&#1091;&#1076;&#1080;&#1085;&#8203; (help·info); 18 March 1980) is a former Russian figure skater. His major achievements in his six years of eligible sports career include being the 2002 Olympic Champion, a four-time World Champion (1998, 1999, 2000, 2002), a three-time European Champion (1998, 1999, 2002), a two-time Grand Prix Final Champion (1998-1999, 2001-2002), a World Junior Champion (1996) and a two-time World Professional Champion (1998, 2002).

    Evgeni Viktorovich Plushenko (Russian: About this sound &#1045;&#1074;&#1075;&#1077;&#769;&#1085;&#1080;&#1081; &#1042;&#1080;&#769;&#1082;&#1090;&#1086;&#1088;&#1086;&#1074;&#1080;&#1095; &#1055;&#1083;&#1102;&#769;&#1097;&#1077;&#1085;&#1082;&#1086;&#8203; (help·info), Yevgeny Viktorovich Plyushchenko; born 3 November 1982) is a Russian figure skater. He is the 2006 Winter Olympics gold medalist, 2002 Winter Olympics silver medalist, and 2010 Winter Olympics silver medalist, three-time (2001, 2003, 2004) World champion, seven-time (2000, 2001, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2010, 2012) European champion, a four-time (1999-2000, 2000-2001, 2002-2003, 2004-2005) Grand Prix Final champion and a ten-time (1999–2002, 2004–2006, 2010, 2012–2013) Russian national champion.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2013
  23. Primorskaya

    Primorskaya Red Member

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    True dat, it did seem like the western commentators pretty much adopted Yagudin as one of their own, while Plushenko was very much the Bond villain (actually, he'd be bloody great in a Bond film).

    Is it because Yags learnt english and was generally more of a charmer, whereas Plushenko kind of encouraged the "fearsome hitman from the cold" image that he got stuck with? There's a hilarious fluff piece somewhere on youtube, that aired on a US TV channel, must have been around 2002, where they play up the good guy/bad guy thing to the max, it's hilarious. My internet connection is crappy and won't allow me to go search for it, sorry, but it's worth a watch!
     
  24. ciocio

    ciocio Active Member

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    There are a lot of hilarious pieces of fluff on Youtube about their rivalry. I think Plushenko still likes the Soviet villain image, talking about his "enemies". :plush: I'm dreaming about a Bond show on ice with Joubert as 007, Yuna as Bondgirl and Plushy starring the Soviet villain, it would be AMAZING!:kickass:
    It is known that Yagudin and Piseev's relationship wasn't great and probably that's why Russian judges seem to favor Plushenko but a lot of people also think that Yagudin did not have support from his Federation in international competitions which is :lol::rofl:. Not even Piseev was that crazy. We've seen what happened to Plushenko after Vancouver when he criticized Piseev -he lost his eligibility- but then the Federation realized they need him, they made peace and everybody was happy. :puppet:
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2013
  25. FunnyBut

    FunnyBut Well-Known Member

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    This is what came to my mind too. I saw several times that the US judge, in an international competition, gave Angela lower than average score (compared with the other intl judges) while giving Sarah a higher than average score. For Angela it seemed her own judge was her hardest critic. But I'm sure the US judge did this because Sarah had planned harder jump content and was more likely to deliver it.

    One contrary competition was the US Nat's that qualified for the SLC Olympics. They actually put Angela ahead in the SP. She really was SO much better than Sarah there, I'm glad she at least got that nod for all the quality she put on the ice.
     
  26. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    Did you watch the programs? You only spoke about 1999. But look at their programs in 2000.
    Alexei: LP- 3A-3T, 2T, 3A, FS, 3F-3T(step out), 3Lo, CCo, CiSt, FS, Spread eagle, 3Lz, 3S, CCo

    SP-4T(step out), 3A-2T, FS, CiSt, 2A, CS, SeSt, CCo

    Evgeni: LP-4T-3T-2Lo, 3A-3T, FC(camel spin), 3A, CiSt, 3Lz, Butterfly, Biellmann Spiral, 3F, some spin, 2S, 3Lo, some spin, CCo

    SP- 4T, 3A-3T, CoC, CiSt, 2A, CS, SlSt, CCo

    in 2001
    Yag: LP-4T, 2T, 3A-3T, 3F, 3S, CiSt, 3Lo, FS, CCo, 3A, 3Lz, SlSt, CCo

    SP-2T, 3A-3T, FS, CISt, 3Lz, CS, SeSt, CCo

    Push:LP-4T, 4T-3T-2Lo, 3A, flying camel spin(FC), 3S, spin, 3Lz, Bielmann spiral, 3F, 3Lo, spin combo, spin

    SP-4T-3T, 3A, flying camel-donut spin, 3Lz, spin combo, sit spin


    Honestly, who should have won? Honestly!

    And about Plushy's artistry then. Plush received his first 6.0 for his presentation on NHK Trophy 1998. I didn't find it, but look at the presentation marks in 1998 World championships, his first senior competition.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7h-utC6kPY he received 8 5.8s and one 5.5, he was only 15!

    http://www.kingonice.com/evgeni6-0.htm


    When I read you I asked myself: am I biased? I'm nothing compared you :D
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2013
  27. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Sorry to say that the above isn't true. Sarah Hughes placed third in the SP to Angela Nikodinov's fourth.
     
  28. Sedge

    Sedge Active Member

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    A great deal of the Yagudin preference in the west came from the fact that Alexei Loved the camera and spoke charming English while Mishin would not let his boy ( Plushenko) speak on western TV.
    Alexei was easy to like..and his skating was just as easy to like.
    Plushenko was remote and aloof from the camera....whether he was in fact that way or not...the west would never know..he rarely went on camera for interviews ..until the Plushenko Yagudin preferences were already set.
     
  29. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    This was interesting. Major deductions for incorrect jump content, although exactly what the deductions would be depend on how each judge interpreted it.
    Just going in order of execution (which is how IJS would handle it),
    the 2T would count as the solo jump, 0.4 deduction for insufficient revolutions (and also lack of preceding steps);
    3A+3T OK;
    0.5 for not even attempting a solo axel jump as required (would need to be double since a triple had already been executed in the combo)
    0.1 to 0.2 for extra element (the 3Lz)
    So by that interpretation the Required Elements score shouldn't have been any higher than 5.0

    I suppose a judge could reinterpret the jump content after the fact to consider the 2T extra element, so the 3Lz could get full credit as the solo jump and the only deductions would be for an added element and a missing required element. By that interpretation, if everything else was excellent, an argument could be made for 5.4.

    I'm pretty sure most of his RE scores were somewhere in between there, that few if any of the judges went into the 4s.

    IIRC the SP standings were 1. Plushenko, 2. Abt, 3. Yagudin, 4. Serov (no major errors, no quad); everyone else had errors and/or no 3A either.
    So the fact that Yagudin was third and not fourth in that SP, and therefore "in control of his own destiny" heading into the freeskate, could be seen as a gift.
     
  30. unicorn

    unicorn Member

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    Yes, he's hugely gifted for the 2001 sp mark, and politics does exists at RNs. Yagudin knows that, and he talked about it in the interview without reluctant, he said if he was marked correctly, he would have been in 5th or 6th places and that's RN. It's a prove that RN is a joke to him. I don't think he cared about that gift, for him, there's no difference if he couldn't get first. It's not like he complained about he didn't win each time because of politics. The main point is after 99 RN, he knew that they wouldn't let him win no matter what, so he didn't take the RN seriously.

    You can take that "in control of his own destiny" as that's because of his unneglectable international achivements, so it's still because of himself, not because they thought he's lovely and gifted him.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2013