Discussion in 'Off The Beaten Track' started by Bostonfan, Jun 18, 2012.
Hmm, didn't think of that. Interesting perspective.
That could be an interesting twist...very John Grishamish.
But why would she leave the framed cheque right out in the open for Nolan to see? If had some mischievous intention, I would think she'd hide it somewhere safe.
Why would she hide it? Nolan knows the check exists.
She easily lied when asked. Not to mention she basicaly gave Nolan a chance to say something.
If she had hid it, DavidnClarke's name stays out of the conversation. She has some reason for wanting it in the open.
I doubt it, because that would seriously undermine Emily and I believe he's on her side. Treadwell has tons of contacts from when he wrote the book, so not surprising that he knew of an old injury. btw, one would guess that happened when she was older, not when Treadwell interviewed her as a child.
I think Aiden is up to something else. I don't think he's interested in becoming rich and powerful - he's just using the obviously vulnerable daddy-issues Daniel to further his own agenda.
Remember that he's on a revenge track too - we don't yet know what it is. But I do think he won't screw over Emily, and since he just found out that Nolan is important to her, I can't imagine he will screw him over either.
And thankfully, Nolan is now waking up and will hopefully get back in control of the company he has been neglecting of late.
From what I can tell, WHM was supposed to kill Kara, and didn't for whatever reason - perhaps to use her against the Graysons, given his habit of going rogue. She in her mental state thought she was being rescued and that she had Victoria to thank for it, and our smooth Victoria doesn't miss a beat and just went along with it.
I'm guessing that WHM had Kara well under control all these years, and that had he lived, there's no way he would have let her get anywhere near the Hamptons, or even catch the news for that matter. Recall that WHM also had another house - the one filled with clocks - so he's been leading a double or triple life for some time.
I think so too - just last week we were wondering if Padma had id'd her, given that she was a major shareholder. Mind you, if she's going back to David Clarke's time, and has discovered the initial investment, then she either knows or is close to knowing that his daughter once owned a large share of the company. This seriously compromises Emily's careful switcheroo with Amanda - who is supposed to be a poor orphan, not an extremely wealthy heiress. The question will be, where did that money go?
Amen to that.
VERY interesting thought. Further to above - Padma perhaps is tracing where the money went, because she believes she has a claim on it - like you say perhaps a family member of someone who died on the plane. Or a Thomas Crown Affair style character, looking to recover the insurance money. Or another Talented Mr Hamptons - someone with financial smarts who knows that tens of millions or more is missing, and thinks that she might be able to find it to her own advantage.
BTW, does anyone else find it just a little bit straining belief that Kara would have zero recognition of her real daughter? If Emily had been a baby when last they'd met, it would make sense. But by age 5 her facial structures would be sufficiently formed, and the grown-up Emily should retain enough features for Kara to recognize her when she's staring her right in the face. Sure, Kara was bat-crap crazy and hopped up on who knows what drugs ... but still.
^ I agree. I actually was surprised that the two met up face to face so quickly. I figured the writers would try to keep them apart for a while in order to avoid that huge plot hole but maybe they figured it would be better to just dive in head first. They did leave a moment of pause when the two came up to each other but obviously it was only for dramatic effect.
Have you ever known an adoptee who met her real parents later in life? I've known several. Zero, zippo connection, and massive heartbreak when they find out there's nothing more there than some superficial characteristics. We want to believe we would just "know", but the truth is, there is no magical, mystical family connection. Outside of a fantasy novel, blood does not call to blood.
I like she didn't recognize her. Realistically, she wouldn't. And you don't necessarily look like the person you're going to grow into at five as you do as an adult. Braces can change face shape. How you do your eyebrows can change it. Hair color changes. Typically, when children are younger they resemble their father. As adults, not as much. Children typically have sweet, round faces so adults will take care of them but most of us grow out of that.
We're not nearly as good as we think we are at recognizing who belongs with whom. Study after study has shown that people only see similarities/differences as they're coached to do so. If you're a six foot tall Indian guy and you tell someone the five foot blonde girl is your sister, they'll start to see similar noses, hand gestures, etc. Show people fraternal twins and tell them they're two total strangers, they won't see any resemblance. When I was young, I was classified as failure to thrive. No one would classify me as such now Some are tall in middle school...and then that's it, they're done growing. Others are average height or short, but shoot up in high school to be giants.
Plus, it's not like there aren't superficial similarities between Amily and Emanda: brown eyes. Nice blonde highlight jobs. Similar height. One slender, one curvy, but neither body type would manifest at five.
But that is not AT ALL the same as not recognizing the daughter you raised from birth to age 5 or 6. I will suspend my disbelief but all the evidence you cite is quite different.
i dont know anyone that doesnt look somewhat like what they looked like at 5. if this was real life, i would say kara was stupid. but for a soap opera, it works fine.
Actually, some of it is. Parents don't recognize their children even if they raised them up to five, six, or even ten. Foster children reunited with their parents after just a couple of years don't always recognize their kids. That little girl they show at the beginning? She could very easily be Emily. Or Amanda. Or my great-niece Lexi. Or the neighbor's daughter. Or any number of children you see in a typical class. Many, many little white girls have blonde hair and light eyes, whether it's light brown, light green, light blue. Over time, both typically darken. You lose baby fat. Your features can get longer, more pronounced, change through braces, injury, surgery. Hair texture changes. Skin tone changes.
As for somewhat, I look somewhat like a lot of people. I look somewhat like my cousin. I don't look at all like my younger brother. I look a lot like my best friend. We've all had the experience of someone coming up to them and say you must be related to so-and-so, or have some total stranger acost them saying, "omg, I haven't seen you in FOREVER! Since HIGH SCHOOL!" Maybe even been the total stranger CONVINCED the person you're talking to was your best friend from elementary school. I'm sure I somewhat resemble myself at five...and probably a lot of people on this board too at age five.
I guess I'm in the minority, but I'm very, very happy she didn't recognize her. To me, it would be completely unrealistic to look at someone after being separated for 20 years and just "know." It's hokey in the extreme.
I also have no problem with Kara not recognizing Emily.
Aside from the fact that she was mentally ill at the time and heavily medicated immediately following, which could easily distort her memory, the key thing to me is that she believes Amanda is her daughter, wants to connect with her and is excited about her grandchild. With all that pulling her to Amanda, why would she stop and think "but maybe it's not really her"? Even seeing Emily - and yes they did have a meaningful look and perhaps Kara saw something familiar as we often do in others - shouldn't immediately make her go "wait, she looks familiar, maybe she's really my daughter and Amanda is not."
These are not questions that most people ask - switched identities happen on tv all the time, but are rare in real life.
I'd normally agree with this, but I don't look at all like I did at that age. Different hair, different nose (sadly, it was better when I was younger ) and a friend of mine was blonde as a kid but now has nearly black hair. It happens.
That's a good point - expectation often clouds our view. Kara expects that Amanda is her daughter, so she sees what she wants to see.
Alternatively, Kara knows full well that Emily is Amanda, which would explain their little scene at the end and also the scene in the car when Kara told her about David and asked if she thought Amanda really forgave her. She's been playing the Graysons (or trying to), so why not play Emily?
I think that we, as the audience, expect that we know what's going on since we often find out about plot twists before other characters. What if that expectation is clouding our view of Kara's behaviour?
This is also a good possibility, especially given the clues you describe. Maybe Kara learned a thing or two from WHM, and is smarter than we think. Plus, while certainly trying to drown her own child points to some kind of mental illness, this is tv, and she might be the sanest character on the show - she might have been drugged, Gaslit, etc, and Emily's memory might be faulty.
Definitely. It was Matryeshka's post saying that people often see what they want to see that made me think Kara was seeing what she wanted to see, and it stands to reason that the writers can also use power of suggestion to influence what we think too.
Or they're just f*cking with us.
I think that's most likely
As for Fauxmanda's lack of scar...is it such a bad thing that everyone know's she's not Amanda? It doesn't mean that Emily's exposed. It could be a good way to write her out, at least for now. That said, I feel sorry for her. Emily's manipulated her the whole time they've known each other and all she's ever wanted is a family...even though she's a stripper and a murderer, I'm okay with her staying with Jack
True story: my mother did not see me for a year when I was 9-10 year old, and she did not recognize me when she saw me again for the first time. I had to call "mom" out a few times before she did a double take.
Jack needs to just run away in the night and take the baby with him. Amily can have idiot Declan.
I considered Kara knowing who her real daughter is, and I don't know if the writers know yet. I think they're leaving it open depending on where other storylines take them.
Once Upon a Time and Revenge is my favourite one-two punch since Klimova/Ponomarenko and Usova/Zhulin.
Aiden's suspicions over Ashley are intriguing. Do we know what anything about Aiden's story...something about a sister?
He trained with Emily to save his sister, but he couldn't save her in the end. No idea what that means.
I'm surprised Mason is the first person to work out the Emily/Amanda switch, and that it took so long to make the connection. Victoria, for someone who is so suspicious, is quite dense. She KNOWS they were both in juvy, it was her info that lead Mason to make the connection, but she just...hasn't.
I guess it wouldn't be really in the interest of the plot if they were to piece it together now though
OMG you are so right!
I love this show, I really do, but this episode was a little over the top.
I think Mason being the first to get it is perfect. They've shown that he can sniff out a lie very easily. After all, he knew there was more to the story of David Clark. He never bought into Victoria. He knew the kidnapping was a joke. He's got a lot invested in the Clark/Greyson debacle and it makes sense that it would take someone on the outside to see all the pieces come together.
Like the title of the show, people want to buy into illusions. Victoria wants to believe that Amanda Clarke turned into a stripper who got knocked up by her childhood friend than a sophisticated, formidable opponent.
Totally agree with this post.
Mason is the investigative journalist, and one of the few who spent time with Amanda after David went to jail. He knows her a bit better than most - certainly better than Victoria, or Jack's nostalgic memories. Remember too that he was already questioning Amanda's identity with the scar, so when Victoria mentioned that Emily was also in juvie, it revived his thoughts that Amanda wasn't Amanda, and quickly led him to Emily. Kinda liked the red thread motif - harkens back to Emily's red marker last season.
As for Victoria's views on Emily - anyone noticed that this season they are ramping up the class distinctions? Suddenly this season we are seeing servants all over the Grayson house constantly. I wondered at first if they were setting up something where the servants overhear something, or they becomes pawns of Victoria/Conrad/Emily etc. Then this ep we have Ashley firmly put in her place in words and images - notably the juxtaposition of Victoria's couture preparations vs Ashley trying on ill-fitting off the rack dresses from her closet (and not even buying something new, to go with her boyfriend's custom tailored tux). And now I'm thinking none of this is for plot - it's merely capitalizing on the popularity of Downton Abbey and reviving the idea of America's version of royalty.
One thing I'm annoyed about though is this stupid "initiative" and the squad of terrorists and money launderers - although it *was* kinda funny when Nolan referred to Aiden as Mr Bond But seriously, I thought the producer of the show said this season would be more about the core circle of characters - back to the cul de sac (!) so to speak. Perhaps he was referring to the yawner Gullible Boys storylines, but I was hoping he was saying that the initiative was no more, and here we have them back and bigger than ever, sigh.
As for Kara and what she knows/what she's up to/how crazy she actually is - let us remember that Jennifer Jason Leigh is a formidable actress, and now I'm seeing that she's ideal casting for this enigmatic character.
Line of the night, as always goes to Nolan when he said that getting Conrad arrested for murder at his own wedding qualified for "revenge all-stars."
No one does barely controlled crazy and angry better than Jennifer Jason Leigh! She was the perfect casting! I'm not sure what she knows or thinks she knows. All of the suggestions here are plausible. I do get the feeling that Emily is liking her mother's vengefulness. In spite of what she believes her mother did to her. I was wondering if her mother was actually trying to kill her or, if Emily was struggling in the water and her mother was trying to save her. Than it got all turned around, because everyone made assumptions based on her mental illness.
I don't think so. She remembered her mother trying to drown her, and her mother admitted having done something so bad that she told David to tell Amanda she was dead. I like the idea of a multi-dimensional character who tried to kill her own daughter, who married a man who helped set up her ex-husband, who is mentally ill but who still appears somewhat sympathetic.
I honestly think she knows who Emily really is, but I'm not sure whose side she's on, ultimately, given her connection to the white haired man.
these nieman marcus commercials are on my last nerve
I don't get this whole 'Gift of Revenge' thing and wish it would go away. This show can be confusing enough all on it's own...I don't need commercials with the cast members in them to mess me up even more, LOL
What a perfect comeuppance for Mason. That was great.
I'm looking forward to seeing what Jack and Declan's dad did that was so bad. It has to do with something with their mom.
Is that it for Jennifer Jason Leigh? Have to admit, I don't mind. She's been a disappointment.
Tonight was awesome! I didn't mind the Neiman/Target ads. I thought it was pretty clever.
I had to wonder if Kara having that last flashback about Amanda in the car, and then looking back at Emily if she made the connection or not that she was her daughter. Otherwise the whole Kara plotline was a big fizzle. All this build-up, and frankly not much happened. I have to imagine she'll play a more significant role down the road.
Other random thoughts:
Oh please, oh please - let the gift that Emily gave to Victoria be an empty box!!!!
"One time, at Revenge camp"
Please Revenge writers, keep Nolan and Emily platonic!
They're throwing too many new characters at us. Now there's a brother to the guy that co-owns the bar (I can't be bothered to remember his name)? They're working some sort of revenge against something Jack and Declan's father did to them? Please - too much. Then there's Padma's contined jerky insertions into the narrative, and the Initiative lady. I almost long for the simpler days when Emily just worked on putting an "x" through the face of one person at a time.
Is it me or does Emily Vancamp look at little softer? Not fatter, mind you. Just not as muscular. She doesn't look as lean and mean physically as she did in Season 1.
What is it with Fauxmanda and tire irons?
The baby was a cutie pie
^^ Agree about the Initiative Lady. I liked it better when the Initiative was just this obscure thing. Putting a face on it makes it seem trite and less powerful.
I thought Amanda was having the flashback, not Kara. We do tend to see things from Amanda's point of view more than anyone else's. I'm fairly sure Kara knew, she may even have known the whole time. The way she looked back just confirmed it for me.
I love that Victoria and Conrad think that the initiative is behind Kara's antics and the security cameras going out. If only they knew
Especially when that face is Wendy Crewson, who is one of my least favourite actors. Mostly because I don't think she can act. Everything she does is exactly the same, completely one note. The fact that that one note fits well for evil automoton ...
Hmm, I'm not sure about any Downton Abbey connection, intentional or otherwise, but I agree that perceptions about the money class has a lot to do with how this show works. The basic premise hinges on the idea that, if you have enough money, you can do anything. I'm thinking the Ashley business has more to do with just illustrating how being around all that money and power will almost inevitably turn your head to wanting more. At least that's how they were treating Ashley last season. This season, and esp. with Aiden's suspicions ... who knows.
The most perfect use of Ashley, though, was last night -- when Mason's comment about Daniel dating the help led to Victoria's comment about Emily being a juvy girl ... and we know where that led.
Other thoughts: Emily + Aiden = whatever, though at least they didn't drag out the inevitable. And at least they're not lying to each other, so that's something.
I agree that Mason being the one to come closest to the truth was fitting -- and I like that, even though he was close, he still didn't figure out the final piece of the puzzle until Emily basically told him. It is, after all, rather too preposterous to just guess at. (Though his juvy lesbian love affair angle was pretty .)
But Mason agreeing to plead guilty so he can get an amazing book out of it??!? This is a perfect example of "things that work in Revenge-land but are so completely removed from real life that they're just laughable." In the context of the plot, it's perfect. Just don't think about it. At. All. Like don't think about how the incredibly fastidious Mason will fare in jail ...
And don't get me started on how much I don't care about the evil rich brothers' revenge on the house of Porter ...
Jennifer Jason Leigh and Henry Czerny are the only two really great actors on this show. The rest of the cast members are just what a soap opera ordered. Whee!!! Adrienne Barbeau (from "Maude") is going to play Madeline Stowe's mother in the next episode. I guess Susan Lucci wasn't available.
message too short
Those commercials made trying to fast forward through the commercials a real challenge!
Susan Lucci as Madeline Stowe's mother would have been the best casting decision ever.
I agree that Czerny is a step above everyone else. JJL should theoretically be but she hasn't impressed me in this. It might just be that I don't like the character at all. I never like those dazed-eyed sorts of characters.
Yeah, the getting Mason to plead guilty thing didn't make any sense, but who cares - great episode!!
OMG that would have been FABULOUS.
Also agree that Henry Czerny is the best actor on the show, and thanks to some really good dialogue I think, is getting better and better. His interactions with Victoria are delicious.
Hubby has started watching with me this season, and that was the moment when I had to explain to him that on this show, there are many moments like that, and we just have to go with it.
Also agree we need to keep Nolan and Emily platonic, plus I have to say the bit with Padma was like last week never happened, when he told her off at the wedding re going behind his back, and now he's all soppy puppy with her. And then previews of next week - did I see him kissing a man? We know that's a possibility for him, but then what's with Padma? They need to sort this out - Nolan is way to good a character and Gabrielle Mann is doing way too good a job with it to screw around like this.
Hubby's other big question is why on earth Nolan would be willing to give up control of his "life's work" just because he made a vague promise to her father. Seriously? Sure, he's trusting Aiden because he's Emily's friend, but just as hiring Padma to a very senior position with no background on her didn't make any sense, you'd think that Nolan would have CHECKED WITH EMILY before giving up control of his company, no? And is he not connecting the dots that at the very same time that Aiden is after this info, so was Padma? Are we dropping that SL?
And then there's the cheque. Considering it's potentially worth billions of dollars and the control of two major corporations, you'd think they'd at least put it in a protective envelope, no? But then we wouldn't have the visual, which sadly does seem to drive a lot of decisions by the writers on this show.
I did enjoy Emily's reveal to Mason though - rewound and watched it twice
I have to wonder if Emily has a specific endgame in mind for her revenge against Conrad and Victoria, or whether she just wants to hang around their world and stir things up in any old direction that will make them suffer.
Will she be vindicated if they end up dead? If they're imprisoned for life for crimes they did or didn't commit? If they publicly confess to or are exposed for framing David regardless of their own fate?
How was marrying Daniel supposed to achieve any of those goals?
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