Retrospective: The 1997 World Championships

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Maofan7, Aug 12, 2014.

  1. yunatripleflip

    yunatripleflip Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2014
    Messages:
    64
    The door was wide open for them to win too since all the top contenders had huge mistakes except for Kazahkova & Dmitriev who had messed up the short and weren't in the final flight or gold contention anymore. If they skated cleanly they would win the title.
     
  2. yunatripleflip

    yunatripleflip Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2014
    Messages:
    64
    I think Kazhakova & Dmitrev had a way stronger and more spectacular LP than their Olympic winning one too, even with his doubled toe. It was too bad they messed up their short as they would have been great champions in this very weak year.
     
    Vash01 likes this.
  3. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Sasha

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2001
    Messages:
    25,909
    The pressure got to them because the door was so wide open. It was understandable in their case. They didn't even need a clean skate; if they had just one fall, the judges may have even given it to them. However, it seems at that time Elena was stil relearning how to land her throws so it was too much expect. Their lifts were also quite simple at that time. Still they had a chance if they did not have so many falls. K&D would have been great world champions if they had something like IJS at that time. With the 6.0 system it was impossible for K&D to win. W&S were essentially given the win because (I am guessing) the judges didn't want Y&B to repeat as world champions going into the 1998 Olympics.
     
  4. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,479
    W&S had an awful skate that night IIRC. Not only did Mandy have a nasty fall on the double axel, but she had two footed landings on two major elements, and I believe they had one other mistake/shaky landing. I agree they won since the judges did not want E&B to be 2 time world champions going into the Olympics as that would have made them the runaway favorites, and the judges wanted to keep it an open and interesting battle for the gold and podium between 4 to 6 teams, as there was no legendary team established of that era yet. Still had E&B landed the triple toes the judges would have had no choice with the skate of W&S, Meno & Sand, and all the other contenders, but their fall on that (their only mistake vs the mistake ridden skate of W&S) gave them the excuse they needed.

    I was never a fan of Y&B and I didn't even totally agree with their 96 title (I probably would have given that to Shishkova & Naumov although no team was overwhelmingly obvious in that similarily poorly skated event), but I felt awful for them. They had already missed the 94 Olympics where they might have medaled (without the pros) due to the reinstated pros, Russian depth, and his groin injury that year, and then I look at the 98 Games where after some problems in general that season they were politically shafted (even considering they didn't skate great there either). Had they defended their world title they would have had to atleast be taken much more seriously as a strong contender in Nagano.
     
  5. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Sasha

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2001
    Messages:
    25,909
    Deleted post
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2014
  6. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Sasha

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2001
    Messages:
    25,909
    The 94 return of the pros ruined the careers of quite a few eligible pairs, even though from a fan's perspective I enjoyed the 94 Olympics pairs competition. Y&B did not skate well at the 98 Olympics and they were the reigning Russian national champions going into it. This was yet another case of a possible Russian sweep that did not take place. A fall in the SP took Y&B out of medal contention because 5-6 pairs skated clean. I was OK with their 96 title because there was no strong pair around. They almost always had problems with the sbs 3toes. I actually preferred Y&B's 97 LP performance to their 96 LP. Oddly because of Y&B not repeating as pairs champions in 97, B&S became big favorites going into the 98 Olympics (W&S were battling injury to Ingo, even though they were the reigning world champions). The pressure got to them and the dark horse K&D won. Actually K&D should not have been a dark horse at all, based on how well they skated their LP at the 97 worlds.
     
  7. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,479
    K&D were seen as a dark horse since they had a pretty poor 97-98 and overall much weaker than their breakthrough season in 96-97 where they were 2nd to W&S at the grand prix final (clearly should have won, but W&S while not clean were atleast much better than worlds there), and skated the best LP by far at worlds. Even weaker than their rookie season in 95-96 when they won the European title. They missed a lot of the grand prix, were a distant 3rd at a depleted grand prix final with a very poor free skate performance, barely took 2nd at Europeans over Abitol & Bernandis, and barely made the Olympic team at Nationals over Shishkova & Naumov (despite skating really well at Nationals). I always had a feeling though with Moskvina behind them, they would be more prepared for the event, and more a factor than many had them.

    Pretty much all the top teams besides B&S missed lots of time with injury, weird mechanical problems (boots and skates in some cases), and suffered through real inconsistency and many poor performances that season. E&B missed the grand prix final and Europeans, and were poor in their Cup of Russia win. IIRC atleast one of those was missed by an equipment problem. Meno & Sand missed most of the grand prix, bombed and lost to then little known S&Z in their one outing, and missed U.S nationals and had to be petitioned onto the U.S Olympic team. W&S missed Europeans, and skated through his shoulder injury most of the season. K&D missed their 2nd and 3rd grand prix events (the 3rd non counting to the final) and still got into the grand prix final after some WDs. Ina & Dungen were a decent 2nd at Skate America competing against both E&B and S&N, but a disaesterous 6th at their next outing. Making poor B&S even more overwhelming favorites as everyone else of note entered the games missing many competitions and a large question mark to even being ready for the Games; a pressure too strong and soon for B&S.
     
  8. Nours

    Nours Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2004
    Messages:
    600
    It was Euros, his blade broke during the SP warm up. He couldn't change it in time for the reskate because he had no other so they had to withdraw.

    Ina Dungjen had no competition on home soil at the first GP. At Lalique they faced some competition. I mean, they were fourth at the Games while clean. Why ? They were way to slow for that level of competition. It's so obvious. They never were a threat for more than fifth place.
     
  9. yunatripleflip

    yunatripleflip Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2014
    Messages:
    64
    Ina & Dungen were not clean at the Games at all. He stumbled out of/and hands down on the triple toe. She singled the double axel while he did a double. Her free foot touched down on the throw triple loop. Maybe they wouldn't have medaled even clean, although with all the mistakes from the better pairs the judges probably have to if they went totally clean. They did not go clean though.

    Also if they finished 4th with a poor skate how can you say they were not a threat for more than 5th. That makes no sense.

    I agree they were very slow, unision was horrible, and their free leg extensions were often pretty bad. They also often weren't given good programs by their coach/choreographers.
     
  10. Nours

    Nours Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2004
    Messages:
    600
    It's been a long time I did not watch their LP at the Games, it's just in my memories, they were clean, I have to rewatch it (but Ina is not my favorite skater to watch).

    Anyway, their lack of speed is obvious throughout their career, and only because of this, they were never were real contenders. Passing Meno and Sand in the US didn't mean they were capable of winning medals too.

    They came in fourth at the Games by luck because a lot of teams imploded or were underrated. I said they weren't a threat for more than fifth place, I meant in the judges eyes and before the competition actually happened. Unexpected circumstances can win or loses you one or two places. Your federation too.
     
  11. alchemy void

    alchemy void Running away from POTO

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2002
    Messages:
    3,807
    Rewatched some of the pairs (which was hard work in itself) from 97 Worlds:

    W&S were really strong in the SP. Maybe the best I've ever seen them. I watched B/S first and was thinking there was no way W&S was better than B&S, buy they were. Not that it would have made a difference, but I would have B&S 2nd in the SP, with E&B third.
     
  12. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,479
    While I didn't have a problem with the short program results I would have had: 1. B&S, 2. E&B, 3. W&S. W&S did have a very good skate, and the program suited them well, but their spins were badly out of sync in the first half. That combined with their much weaker twist and overhead lift, and they should be behind B&S for sure and probably E&B. Anyway I am not surprised at the order as while E&B were reigning world champs W&S had been the dominant team almost all year (apart from Europeans where E&B beat them), and B&S were still relatively new and not that big a name yet.
     
  13. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2005
    Messages:
    363
    I agree, Kwan deserved her LP win. I wouldn't have had too much of an issue with Lipinski winning it either (although Kwan was superior). As for Slutskaya, other than jumps/spins her program didn't come close to what Kwan and Lipinski did that night. She would have needed Lipinski to at least have one mistake on a jump, and for Kwan to have more than one serious error, considering what an inspired skate Taj was in general.
    It was an odd season though overall with inconsistencies from prior champions (Chen and Bobek), and Gusmeroli kind of coming up out of nowhere in that SP.
     
  14. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2006
    Messages:
    1,582
    I only watched Chen's short program once and remember thinking she was judged a little harshly. Bobek had two major error mistakes too and placed 8th. Any theories why Chen was hosed over, or was it a fair placement?
     
  15. hirtmoles31

    hirtmoles31 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2013
    Messages:
    79
    She didn't even attempt atleast a double in the combination jump, nor a second jump which were additional deductions. She then threw in a triple toe-double toe out of footwork, which would either create a deduction if they now counted her single lutz as her missed solo double/triple for not doing any steps into it, or for throwing in an element, or both. Plus the singles axel, and atleast one of her spins didn't get the required revs. I am quite sure most of the judges took more than 2 big deductions.
     
  16. gotoschool

    gotoschool Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    Messages:
    107
    I agree on Kwan winning the freeskate but not by a lot. She had better posture, smooth powerful stroking, superior extensions and lines, wonderful dramatic presentation with compelling arm movements, solid, clean jumps with better height than Lipinski and better posture and slightly smoother movement in and out of jumps, though Slutskaya exited jumps with a lot of flair in arm movements to compensate and her jumps were the most beautiful in the air.

    Kwan's spins lacked a little in flexibility compared to Slutskaya, but Kwan's artistic interpretation trumps this. Still to me, Slutskaya skates with heart and power and has such big, beautiful jumps, strong skating skills and flexible spins (two Biellmans) that it resonates with me more than Lipinski's smaller jumps do. I also thought Slutskaya had intricate arm movements that weren't elegant but emotionally compelling, so I would place her higher than Lipinski, whose artistry though good just didn't move me, despite Slutskaya's hunching and the difficulty of performing to such heavy brooding music.

    So, I would have had the freeskate 1. Kwan 2 Slutskaya 3. Lipinski.

    Does anyone think Kwan would have won if she had done the planned triple lutz instead of doubling it?
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2014
    rickmercer, David21 and falling_dance like this.
  17. RFOS

    RFOS Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2007
    Messages:
    2,353
    Once she did the 3T+2T the 1Lz would no longer count as her jump combination element (even if that may have originally been the intention). Singling the solo jump already brought about the maximum possible official deduction for a failure of an element, which I believe was 0.4 at the time*, so officially there wouldn't have been an additional deduction for lacking steps, although it's possible judges reflected it on the base mark. Considering she did two single jumps and the most difficult jump completed was a 3T her required elements/technical "base mark" would be quite low anyway.

    *Dick referred to it as an omission and said it would be 0.5, but I don't think that's correct since the element was at least attempted. However, I didn't closely follow the technical rules until roughly 1998-1999 so it's possible there were changes in the deductions or clarifications in between. I *believe* 8 revolutions were required in the solo spins at the time, and if that's true then she was short on both the flying camel and the layback, and if 6 were required on each foot in the combination spin then I think she *just* makes that on the second foot, but didn't have any position even somewhat resembling a sit (was that required in the SP combination spin at the time?).
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZ_JYfYSO-c

    Bobek had 2 triples (including a lutz....er, well.... ;)) and a double axel in her base mark and much better spins that wouldn't have warranted any deductions, great spirals and footwork. So although I'd give 0.8 in deductions for the 2 jump misses her base mark was good (very good in fact, considering her required elements marks were 4.6-5.0).
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PEQor00vLE
     
    gkelly likes this.
  18. RFOS

    RFOS Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2007
    Messages:
    2,353
    She already won the free skate, so there wasn't any more she could do than that. She might have had all or almost all 1sts instead of the 3 she got, but the only way she could've won overall would be for Tara to place 2 places lower than her in the FS. Unless some judges who had originally put Slutskaya behind Lipinski would have decided to put her ahead given that Kwan had been clean, perhaps with the deliberate intention of causing Kwan to win overall, then she wouldn't have won (and hopefully that wouldn't have happened because the skating should stand on its own merits and not be politically judged).
     
    Coco and gotoschool like this.
  19. rickmercer

    rickmercer Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2013
    Messages:
    104
    I wouldn't call that political judging. If a judge believes Kwan did not outskate Tara by enough in the long to overcome Tara skating 2 perfect programs, but would have with the 2nd triple lutz, then using Slutskaya for that result would have been fine IMO. As a judge that is what I would do. I probably would have put Slutskaya 2nd in the long anyway just because Gusmeroli or Butyrskaya winning bronze over Irina when Irina's LP blews theirs out of the water. So along the same lines of thinking.
     
    gotoschool likes this.