Retrospective: The 1997 World Championships

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Maofan7, Aug 12, 2014.

  1. cbd1235

    cbd1235 Active Member

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    Everyone is entitled to their own opinion about who should have won which portions etc, but it is laughable to suggest that poor crossover/stroking/waist posture is not evaluated on the first mark. Being bent over / broken at the waist (Slutskaya's predominant issue with regard to her stroking) is a technical skating skills issue that is entirely separate from a simple postural issue. Every skater knows that it is easier to skate faster and gain more power if you break at the waist while still maintaining good back posture above that. It is tough to get the same power when keeping the back erect right from the waist. There are reasons other than simple aerodynamics that speedskaters skate in the body orientation that they do to maximize power.

    Further, if you decide to lump Slutskaya's issues with her back posture into the Presentation category then that would fare really poorly for her, with the presentation mark being the tiebreaker. Her program was not even close to the tier of programs that Kwan and Lipinski put out to begin with (talking about the program itself). Both Americans had really well-rounded programs that year and both skated in such a way that the programs built to a climax and were really emotionally fulfilling. Just the phrasing of the program to their music was far superior to that of Slutskaya's. And then the caliber of choreography was on a different planet for the Americans. That is combined with the fact that Kwan and Lipinski skated with much better posture (even if Lipinski especially was slow). ETA actually Lipinski's posture is nothing to write home about either, but it was more consistent and less choppy than Slutskaya's.

    I actually really enjoyed Slutskaya in 1997, and her jumps were some of the cleanest they have been for a FS in her career (flow on landings, good landing position, neat feet, good spring and air position...save for the bad landing on the first lutz). The music was a little heavy, but for a Slutskaya program (which I concede that I do not always enjoy) this one is a good routine. That said, I don't think it can be justified putting Slutskaya above Lipinski in the long due to Lipinski having a better, more difficult, and overall cleaner program (with an extra triple), but Slutskaya did really well in this event. Really the only thing Slutskaya did better was spin (by a small margin) and better speed and jump spring. That alone can't negate the more difficult and extra triple program of Lipinski, not even taking presentation into account.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2014
  2. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    It's nice to unwind with friends ;)
     
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  3. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    Just curious for those who think Gusmeroli was robbed in the short, and I think there is a strong case for that argument, do you think she should have ended up on the podium overall? I would have loved to have seen Slute bounce back with a medal but I don't think Gusmeroli opened the door wide enough for that to happen. I'll have to rewatch but I don't remember Gusmeroli unraveling. I'm glad she hung on for a medal. It'd have been a shame if someone so talented had never won a world medal.
     
  4. UGG

    UGG Well-Known Member

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    I am pretty sure Kwan fans are not the only fans who get pissy when someone has an opinion that does not match theirs. Plushy fans? Evan haters? Kim fans? Ever been in a Mao vs Yuna debate? That crazy Mirai Nagasu fan who was like a 45 years old dad and wanted Ashley Wagner to die?
     
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  5. cbd1235

    cbd1235 Active Member

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    I wish she could have received a world medal with her wonderful Legends of the Fall FS, but 2000 was just such a deep field and iirc she had the skate of her life at Europeans that year. Her FS here in 1997 was messy, I'd have to watch more of the event to see where I feel it should have placed overall.
     
  6. jlai

    jlai Title-less

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    I don't care for Tara's skating, but Tara was the only one who delivered both the short and long mistake free. So despite her flaws, I think her win shouldn't be disputed. The placements afterwards were based on ordinals, and it was lucky Vanessa got the bronze despite her mistakes in the long. It could easily be Kwan and Sluts on the podium. Sluts' chance at silver was not good since she placed so low in the short
     
  7. Erin

    Erin Well-Known Member

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    I agree 100% with Czako being robbed. If we want to talk about programs that would have scored well under COP, I feel like she would have creamed the competition in the short on jumps alone given that the triple-triple would have given her a higher base value and her jumps were of such high quality. Add in the intricate program and good spins and to me, that is a clear first place SP. Now given her meltdown in the LP, it likely wouldn't have made a difference to the overall results, but it still makes me sad that the judges didn't reward this program.

    I always go back and forth on the ladies result here. I agree that those were Kwan's best ever programs and I could watch them over and over. I especially loved the triumphant performance in the free, even with the double lutz. I would have loved for her to defend her world title after that season she'd had. And I can certainly see a good case for putting Kwan ahead of Bute in the short, Gusmeroli over Lipinski in the short, and Slute over Lipinski in the free...any of which would have given Kwan the gold. But if I were marking each phase without attention to the result I wanted for Kwan, I would have ended up with the same results as the judges, aside from Czako's SP. So I guess I can't disagree with it too much. And I did love both of Lipinski's programs that year, which I thought were perfectly suited to her at that age.
     
  8. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    In the context of the 6.0 system, this argument makes sense, and that was the judging system, so she won. End of story.

    Of course, in the context of the IJS, her PCS would have been in 6-7 range, while the rest would have been in the 7-8 range, but the competition was not, so she continues to be the winner.
     
  9. Karpenko

    Karpenko Well-Known Member

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    If you can honestly say with a straight face that Slutskaya's sloppy presentation should've out scored Kwan or even Lipinskis performance that night then you would've been one of the most crooked judges on the panel and have dubious taste at best.

    She had jumps and spins. That's it. And even with those her performance was still sloppier than Kwan/Lipinski and her choreography and line/posture were absolutely laughable in direct comparison with Kwan.

    I remember these arguments back in the day, and as time goes on its even more apparent that Irina shouldn't have gone above 5.7 for presentation no matter the performance. Representing Bulgaria, Irina would've been lucky to break higher than a 5.6 for that performance in presentation. On top of that, she's skating to music that did absolutely nothing to highlight her playful personality, which was her only strength in presentation back then.

    She was a completely different skater when she had her transformation later on with a lot more refinement. That year was not 1997.
     
  10. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I think I have dubious taste. My favorite Irina LP is actually her 1998 Ah Natasha! LP with the 2004 version of Queen of Spades in second.
     
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  11. cbd1235

    cbd1235 Active Member

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    I love her Ah Natasha program! I just found her sloppy in 1998 which kind of mars the program for me. She did improve on that afterward.
     
  12. Karpenko

    Karpenko Well-Known Member

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    Your taste is wretched!!! ;)

    I liked the 98 LP a lot, but that was music that worked with her and not against her.

    If she had the 98 LP with the 97 worlds performance, I would be singing a different tune. (But still have her 2nd)

    These Kwan claws are still vicious. :cool:
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2014
  13. alchemy void

    alchemy void it's time for the perkolator

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    Ahhhh, 97 Worlds. The competition that started my figure skating fandom. I was caught up in the 94 Olympics, had a pre-gay crush on Oksana, but as soon as the Olympics were over I stopped paying attention. And then 3 years later, I am channel surfing and this redhead with the most amazing bitchface and crazyass green outfit immediately demands my attention. I am in love again (redheads!!) And have been a skating fanatic since.

    I think Gusmeroli totally deserved to win the short program. I'll go one step further and say this is one of the best women's short programs ever. Fabulous, big elements + speed + really unique yet accessible choreography + decent 6.0 transitions = a kickass SP that really holds up well today.

    Kwan's LP is one of my all time favorites (and I'm not a huge Kwan fan). I wish she would have brought it back for 2002 instead of Rach. Definitely deserved to win the LP, and 4th after the SP was fair. A case can be made to put her ahead of Butyrskaya.

    Slute had kickass jumps and spins in the LP but a terrible program. No way she should go ahead of Kwan in the LP.
     
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  14. casken

    casken Well-Known Member

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    Looking at some of the other results:

    5th: Marina Anissina / Gwendal Peizerat (France)
    6th: Elizabeth Punsalan / Jerod Swallow (USA)
    7th: Irina Lobacheva / Ilia Averbukh (Russia)

    This was an intersting result. Despite falling in the OD, the judges easily kept Punsalan and Swallow ahead of Lobacheva and Averbukh, even after L&A easily beat P&S at Skate America, and despite skating in the penultimate group, P&S came within one judge of beating Anissina and Peizerat for a top 5 finish. International judges were very pro P&S in 96 and 97 despite them not having the USFSA's support in 95 and missing worlds in favor of Roca/Sur. Weird.

    Gold:
    Elvis Stojko (Canada)
    Silver: Todd Eldredge (USA)

    Ugh. Stojko's program was crap. I wish Eldridge hit that second triple axel and beat Stojko on the second mark. I really think it would have happened.

    Bronze: Alexei Yagudin (Russia)
    4th: Viacheslav Zagorodniuk (Ukraine)

    I totally disagreed with this result and still do. Yagudin's LP was poorly constructed, and this particular performance was just messy at the end. Poor Zags. Same thing happened in 98 too.
     
  15. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    Where did I say Kwan fans were the only ones who ever got pissy? When did Plush, Evan, Kim, Mirai or Mao skate at 97 worlds? They didn't. This thread is about 97 worlds and I'm talking about the fans in this thread that got unreasonably pissy because someone had a different opinion.

    I also liked Ah Natasia. The US commentators sure bashed that program too, surprise surprise, but I liked it. :D
     
  16. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    I'm glad Slutskaya didn't win the LP. Kwan's LP was the best of the night, easily. I don't know how 3 judges thought the contrary. Irina's LP, choreography, posture, were lacking, when compared to Kwan and Lipinski.
    In term of jumps, she had the same number as Kwan, and even if her jumps were smaller, Kwan had very good jumps that night (except the second 3Toe of the 3-3 combo, but Irina's Lutz was not very good). And about the spins, it's the same, Kwan had very good spins (under 6.0).
    Anyone who put Irina in front of Michelle in the LP is a mystery to me. ;)
     
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  17. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    Kwan, Lipinski and Slute all had 3 first place votes each. Kwan won the long program on the basis of second place votes . I'd have gone with Lipinski myself, but I can see a case for Kwan winning. I can't see a case for Slutskaya winning the long even though I dug her program. Her 3-3 was massive though. What a woman.

    Lipinski won 1st place votes from France, Bulgaria and Japan

    Kwan won 1st place votes from Poland, Germany and Italy

    Slute won 1st place votes from Austria, Hungary and Slovakia

    Interestingly, Slute didn't have a single 2nd place vote. She had only 1st and 3rd place ordinals.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2014
  18. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    She was wonderful!
     
  19. David21

    David21 Well-Known Member

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    Where did I say that Slutskaya outscored Lipinski and Kwan in presentation? :lol:

    I said that I would have given her the win in the LP (because, among other reasons, she had the the best jumps of anyone in that competition even surpassing Lipinski), not more. And another poster in this thread and 3 judges on the panel (obviously the 3 corrupt ones in your opinion while the other 6 who had her 3rd were the fair and unbiased ones) agreed with me on that.



    Now this is really laughable and only shows your biases.
     
  20. giselle23

    giselle23 Active Member

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    Irina skated very well at this competition. I would love to say that she should have beaten Tara, because that would have given Michelle the gold. But assuming Tara and Irina should tie for first place in tech, Tara's presentation is better, IMO. And Michelle's is better than both. So I think the placements were correct.
     
  21. Karpenko

    Karpenko Well-Known Member

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    And yet you aren't pointing out where I'm wrong? :p There is nothing in that program choreographically! And I absolutely lump those 3 judges into your corrupt category mister!

    Please point out where Slutskaya deserves higher marks overall, she had a few sloppy moments on elements compared to a clean Lipinski/Kwan (their 3/3 landing had more flow too), also her choreography.. point that out too. :saint: I'll ask the referee to give you extra time because it will take awhile to find any.. this is an emergency judges meeting. :bloc:

    (I love this era)
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2014
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  22. Karpenko

    Karpenko Well-Known Member

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    Just watched Irina again, her jumps and spins warrant a 5.8 but the program was also rather front-loaded with the jumps IMO, she only really had a 3toe and a double axel in the 2nd half. I think if the last spin didn't travel so much and her 1st lutz (and a lot of her jumps were telegraphed) were sharper a 5.9 in the 1st mark - but I'm really just not seeing it with how the top two skated.

    Maybe some of those judges were trying to mess with the ordinals to help Michelle Kwan being in 4th after the short. :shuffle:
     
  23. David21

    David21 Well-Known Member

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    1 .Slutskaya actually did an effort to interpret her music. Lipinski skated to pretty music but she didn't do much with it.
    (Of course Kwan was better than both of them).
    2. As for the triple-triple combos: Kwan obviously struggled to hold the landing but somehow you forgot to mention it. Lipinski's was a bit underrotated on both jumps IMO. Slutskaya's was clean and more difficult than Kwan's.
    3. People here have criticized Slutskaya's positions. Look at Lipinski's jump landings. Her toe isn't pointed and her free leg not in the correct position. Slutskaya's jump landing positions are actually BETTER than Lipinski's.
    4. Kwan's program was technically clean but with a wonky double lutz at the end, an easier 3-3-combo and easier spins Slutskaya deserved a higher 1st mark.

    ETA: As for Slutskaya's program being front loaded: Her triple loop was clearly in the 2nd half as well.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2014
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  24. Karpenko

    Karpenko Well-Known Member

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    I'm actually going to defend Lipinski. What she had was effervescence, she had spirit that worked with her program. It was age appropriate and showed more interpretive range than the monotonous program Irina had. I can see a case for power, she has that, but the lack of polish diminishes what it adds to the presentation and there are a lot more resting spots and predictable moments. Irina was a better skater but Lipinski had the hardest content and a much better choreographed program. A case can be made in comparison, but she still out skated Irina based on the program IMO.

    I'm not forgetting Kwan's slightly unsteady landing position, but the edge still flowed so if you look at the overall sequence it would probably still get positive GOE. I'm also not forgetting that I doubt Slutskaya's 3/3 was completely rotated on the loop and how it would've probably been > if scored under COP. She skated well but that material wasn't world title worthy and IMO the weakest choreographed program of the final flight.
     
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  25. David21

    David21 Well-Known Member

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    I guess we have to agree to disagree.
    And since we are discussing programs from 1997, any speculations on how elements would have scored under CoP are irrelevant IMO.
     
  26. Karpenko

    Karpenko Well-Known Member

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    Yes I had forgotten how a badly traveled spin affects the 2nd mark under 6.0 (the LP ordinal tie-breaker). Especially when it's directly at the end of the program, leaves it as the last impression of the performance even. :drama:

    Well at least we can agree on Kwan. :saint:
     
  27. David21

    David21 Well-Known Member

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    A traveling spin affects by 99% the technical mark (and about 1% the 2nd mark when it really badly affects the overall impression of the program) since it is a technical issue...
     
  28. Karpenko

    Karpenko Well-Known Member

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    We funna scrap.

    I agree to disagree. But you did just make a case to lower your first technical mark. ;) suspension removed.
     
  29. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

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    :rofl: someone needs to watch Weird Al's Word Crimes...and borrow a dictionary :shuffle:
     
  30. eurodance2001

    eurodance2001 Active Member

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    100% ITA..
     
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