Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Maofan7, Jan 22, 2013.
How so? Janet Lynn never won a World title and that didn't "damage" the sport.
Ummm because it is hard to call something a "sport" at all that does not reward athleticism above all else.
Well bardtoob Claudia Leistner was a big and athletic German woman. She wasn't lacking in the qualities of an athlete. She was more reliable on her jumps than most. I think it would have been tragic for other reasons. She was sluggish, not a particularly skilled skater, and her programs were comically bad in their avoidance of choreography. She had long rest stops dressed up as "dancing." She was kind of the hottest mess to be that tall and striking to look at yet to have no acceptable style to go with it.
... then let's change "athleticism" to "athletic performance".
Claudia certainly was athletic as a person, but she simply did not execute well enough to justify being placed over a revolutionary athletic performance by Midori.
According to their book, Lloyd was sick right up to the short program, and CFSA wouldn't let Josee Picard stand at the boards with them at Worlds in competition or practice because she didn't have the coaches certification required - and she was generally the one who helped Isabelle with her nervousness.
I can support you on that. Athletic performance is more descriptive of the difference between these two women's skating. Leistner did not apply her bodily strengths in energetic performances.
It's been a long time since I've watched 89 Canadians, but I believe you are correct that Landry & Johnston did not skate that well, although they did enough to beat Hough & Ladret for the World team, so I don't think it was a disaster either. I do feel like being the Canadian champs would have created expectations in Isabelle and especially Lloyd's mind though.
Dave - Interesting point about Josee Picard and the CFSA...having done some of those coaching certification courses in gymnastics, my experience is that they were a complete waste of time, so it's unfortunate that was the roadblock for her. I actually hadn't realized that the certification requirements were being enforced that early on, as gymnastics didn't start cracking down until the late 90s. Guess the CFSA was ahead of the curve in bureaucracy
Just watched the OSPs and starting on the men's SPs. Was there no other piece of Charleston music besides "Yes sir, That's My Baby?" It feels like just about every team had a variant of that music. It makes me grateful for the creativity teams use today in trying to find suitable short dance music. At least the Duchesnays did something different, even if the feather boa and hat were just plain stupid (imagine if it had cost them their first world medal).
Bowman's SP is one of my favorite programs by anyone - so well-choreographed and he just performed the hell out of it. Does anyone know who choreographed it?
Cindy Landry sure had a short amateur career. Skating with Lyndon a couple seasons, then going pro for good at only 18.
I highly recommend you Barna's SP then, pure joy to watch.
As for D/D OD it was only a way of being "original" and not listening to the rules. They were fifth in the OD though, beaten by both Engi Toth and Wynne Druar. And rightly so IMO.
She skated with Peter Oppegard as a Pro in several competitions.
This thread just gave me a 'duh' moment! All this time I thought that when people wrote about Josee Picard that they were really talking about Josee Chouinard. I only skim most threads for names of skaters who interest me, so naturally, I usually keep going...
Yeah, I remember that now. I read the book a long time ago. It's unfortunate that there is inaccurate info about their finishes on Wikipedia. I just had a vague remembrance that they were disappointed with their finish in '89, as compared to their finish in the previous year.
Then she was with Burt Lancon for years in a Las Vegas show.
Although they bombed in LP, I was slightly surprised at Schwarz/Köenig not getting 2nd in the original program.
I'd have to check the marks and see what the ordinal split was between Leistner and Trenary in the long program (I'm assuming it wasn't unanimous either, and Grossmann and Yamaguchi should have at very least got some 2-3rd place ordinals).
I just did some maths and the ordinals between 2nd and 5th in the LP are kind of all over the place. ITA and HUN had Yamaguchi 2nd in the LP with a 5.7/5.7 and a 5.8/5.7 respectively. The GDR judge had Grossmann 3rd on the LP but IIRC pretty much everyone else had her 5th. It was Yamaguchi who sent the ordinals loopy in the LP but she was too far back in figures (12th) to have any impact on the overall result.
Kristi found herself in the same situation that Midori had often experienced; weak figures in comparison to her free skating.
I've uploaded some more videos to go with those linked by Maofan7. I did mean to do this back in January when the thread was started, but have just had too much going on.
Some rare CD's:
1989 Worlds - Duchesnay's Argentine Tango CD Huuuuuge error here. Horribly over scored.
1989 Worlds - Usova & Zhulin Argentine Tango CD
1989 Worlds - Klimova & Ponomarenko Westmister Waltz CD A rare 6.0 for a CD.
And here is Kristi & Rudy's SP
1989 Worlds Yamaguchi & Galindo SP
Thank you, floskate!
I'd never seen these.
How early did Kristi skate in the evening compared to everyone else? I forgot to consider that she skated in the 12th-7th place flight; and also that since she had a fall, the judges would not want to do her favors. Early skaters infrequently got the benefit of the doubt in those times.
From almost any standards I can imagine, Leistner did not make a case to be marked ahead of Yamaguchi. I wonder if the judges who put Leistner ahead in the long program may have seen Yamagachi as needing to prove herself more than she did.
Floskate, where are the FS judges' ordinals posted?
My UK footage joined during Beatrice Gelmini's FS. Kristi skated right after her, followed by Gorbenko and then Bonaly before the final flight so she did skate after Grossmann. There are no ordinals online. I jotted down the marks from my DVD and worked them out myself. There are a number of ties; a couple involving Kristi. Was the tech mark still the tiebreaker or had they swapped to the artistic after Calgary? I can't remember which year it changed.
I believe they swapped to the artistic mark after Calgary. Not that Scott Hamilton is the greatest authority on the rules but he does specifically mention during the men's event that the second mark was the tiebreaker and that this had changed since Calgary. He was trying to explain why the door was still open for Bowman after Browning's skate, but I do believe him to be correct in this case.
Speaking of Browning, I continue to be impressed with the amount of transitions in his free programs from this era. His reputation pre-93 was as just a jumper, and while I agree that there was an immaturity to his programs (particularity the Gaiety Parissienne free here), there was still a lot of good (and difficult) choreography. Toller Cranston mentioned that the in betweens were slow, which was true, but it's because they were so much more intricate than anyone else. Lots of difficult jump entrances, too - footwork into the triple flip, spiral into the second triple axel, spread eagle into triple loop, split jumps into the double axel at the very end. I'm quite pleasantly surprised with how well this program has stood the test of time.
Yes, this is true because it is how Boitano won in 1988. After the technical merit scores for Witt in 88, Dick Button mentioned "indeed they did leave room" for Debi Thomas. This probably sounds crazy to the more recent fans of the sport though since the second set was the tie-breaker from 89-03. She had an awful lot of 5.6 and 5.7s in the first mark, leaving plenty of room if Thomas delivered.
Erin, BTW, do you happen to know how many clean quads Browning landed? Apparently, there were a few at Canadian Nationals over the years, but not many of those performances are on youtube. And when did he hang up the quad? By 1991 Worlds?
Good question and one that I don't know what the definite answer is, but I think it is not very many and could be as few as two. The only definite one that I know of besides the first at 88 Worlds was 89 Canadians, which was clean as a whistle and likely the best quad that Kurt did in competition. He skated terribly at 1990 Canadians and was just breaking in new skates, so I'm pretty sure he did not land one there. He also skated pretty badly at 1991 Canadians, but I think there was at least a reasonably decent attempt at the quad there. I'm also not sure about fall competitions, but given that Browning was not known as a very strong fall competitor, I'd be surprised if he had any clean quads then.
And yes, 1991 is when he hung up the quad, likely connected in some way to the back injury in the fall of 91. Although he did bring it back in 1998, when he landed a clean one in at least one Stars on Ice show (on the 10 year anniversary of the Budapest quad, IIRC) and also had a very respectable attempt at the 1998 Ultimate 4 pro-am competition, where it was basically landed with a hand down.
Thanks for the info. I found one clip of a 2 footed, UR quad at the 1990 Goodwill Games, which was in his 'off' season, even though he peaked at worlds. Quite interesting history with that quad jump.