Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Maofan7, Nov 25, 2012.
Her interview is at 4:20
I didn't think there was a detailed report about Kwan's try-out.
Kwan must've been a brilliant actress because she looked seriously devastated during that practice session in Torino.
Also, Papa Hughes wouldn't have had a claim against naming Kwan to the team since it was within the USFS rules and there was set precedent for them to make that decision.
Level 4 eye roll.
I wouldnt be at all surprised if Thomas was better than Trenary and Kadavy at figures. From footage I have seen of her her figures were excellent. I however highly doubt Witt and Manley were better than Trenary, Leistner, or even Kadavy at figures. Witt's figures in Calgary were a joke from all the footage I have seen, they probably were no better than Ito's, lol! I am sure there were politics in the figures placings, and it definitely was not favoring the Fassi students. The SP placings also did not favor his students relative performance level, especialy Kadavy.
I dont know why people even assume Fassi was a big political power by the 80s. He was in the 60s and 70s, but in the 80s he produced few noteable results after Lake Placid. Even his top female student in the late 70s Emi Watanabe was notoriously undermarked. He seemed to be less in demand as well, his big gun for the Sarajevo Olympics was Manuela Rueben, LOL! None of his students won medals due to his politicing after that point, that is for sure. Jill's World title was because Ito bombed figures, and the weak free skating field, nothing else, and then he moved to Italy guaranteeing he would only be taking up obscure skaters from that point on (until his return to the U.S some years later).
The footage i've seen (not much and obviously no chance to examine the ice) Thomas had wonderful position and flow in her figures (very unlike Witt). Kadavy clearly botched her second figure (the footage shows her losing an edge and skidding over a few inches before regaining it - that was the figures equivalent of falling in your footwork sequence).
Here's ABC's coverage of the Ladies Figures:
You can see Kadavy's 'bobble' as Peggy Pleming put it, at 2.44
Yes, and the ABC coverage also showed that Trenary did well on the last two figures but not well on the first, which was a repeat of her nervousness from the previous Worlds. Also, it is clear Debbie did very well in all three figures but appeared to be somewhat undermarked in the first figure, while all the footage of Witt indicates she had bobbles across all three figures but appeared to be rewarded for improvement, although I do not think that is exactly the judges' role, to reward improvement. Thanks for posting the links, Skatesindreams, I wanted to do the same.
Kwanette, I give the Level 4 Eye Roll +3 GOE.
I always assumed the skaters dressed up for figures. Guess not.
Those vids of 88 figures are interesting. Witt was almost coming to a complete stop during one or two of her figures. How she managed third overall is a mystery. Yes, I saw Kadavy's mistracing, oops. But to have her 7th? Thomas' tracings looked good, so I'm gaining more of an appreciation for her figures. Funny how Manley wasn't shown. Who knows how she really did. If it was worse than Witt, it must have been bad. I'm still not understanding figures skaters Kadavy and Trenary being 5th and 7th. Figures were money in their pockets. Just not in Calgary.
And yay, I achieved a Level 4 eyeroll with +3 GOE. LOL.
I believe this is the only footage commanly available of Ivanova's figures who was dominant at the time. It's interesting to not however that Thomas won the 2nd and 3rd figure, but Ivanova maintained her lead here overall.
I actually enjoyed Ivanova's short program and it appeared to me to be one of her more thought out programs. Her short programs always seemed to be a strength when compared to her long programs which were often all over the place.
The vodka's on its way.
Psss . . . somebody does not realize they were the well zambonied ice, you performed the Level 4 Eye Roll, and I awarded +3 GOE
Seriously, better than 7th? At times during the 2nd figure her tracings were off by 2-3 inches.
Haha. I personally cannot achieve a level 4 bitchface with +3 GOE because first of all it ages you, and secondly I have too much botox. I would rather have a 'well zambonied' face, than a scratchy, agey, and used one. Bitchface on an 18 y/o looks good, not quite so on a 40+ y/o. Just saying... Try again.
Anyways, there did seem to be a cold war between Dick Button and the Russians. He practically screamed at Kira Ivanova's SP and let us all know how horrible she was. I was never a fan of Kira's, but hearing him rant and rave on her kind of made me like her. And root for her. GO KIRA!!! Where is the emoticon with a bad Kira camel or sitspin or landing??? It's gold. Kira was a rock star!!!
I find it hard to believe that a skater would give up her Olympic dream to "take one for the team".
Skating is a highly individual sport and in the US coaches are employed by the skater not the federation. What skater would listen to a coach who asked her to withdraw in the middle of the Olympics so one of her competitors could have a better chance of winning?
Exactly. I mean how would the USFSA compensate Kadavy? Conspiracy theories are fun but there's a reason why one should never believe in them.
Level 4 . . . there was a real Cold War between the United States of America and Union of Soviet Socialist Republics with nuclear intercontinental ballistic missles and everything, and part of Uncle Dick's job at the American Broadcast Company was US-THEM commentary.
I agree with both of you, but I thought it was Trash Can worthy
Thank goodness! I thought for a moment we had lost you to the twighlight zone. I thought it was commendable that Mama Kadavy put her daughter's health first. You rarely see rhat at that level.
The conspiracy theory reminds me of the time Todd E dislocated his shoulder in a warm-up on camera and struggled in agony for a few moments before popping it back in place. Mishin said he did it on purpose to avoid having to compete against Mishin's skaters. Todd did go ahead and compete btw, and laughed when told about Mishin's statement afterwards.
I would agree with the long program placements, but would have the SP as 1. Kadavy, 2. Ito, 3. Thomas, 4. Trenary, 5. Witt, 6. Manley. Although I could go either way on Ito vs. Kadavy, Thomas vs. Trenary, and Witt vs. Manley. I'm always surprised that people today make such a big deal of Trenary's slightly wobbly combo. I know that back in the day, emphasis was placed on the required jump, which was the double loop, but I'd still have a triple flip-double loop with a slight lean forward over a triple toe or sal with a double loop. If anything, the difficulty of the triple flip, which was so rarely performed in 1988, should have been more impressive back then.
I'm curious as to whether Kadavy would have still withdrawn if she'd been marked more fairly in the SP and was in medal contention. Even as it was, I'm surprised she didn't try to gut it out, although if it was a stomach type of flu, I can see not wanting to have issues in such a public arena (no pun intended). I don't think that I'd call her princessy in either event. She was never a good pressure skater, but I doubt that anyone who is princessy could make her professional career last as long (or maintain her jumps as long) as Kadavy did.
Perhaps we should start a new thread about your favorite conspiracy theories . They're always interesting. . Why else would we have all these emoticons?
They do dress up in roller skating
bonus: fall! at 0.21 (doing the loop on a right back inside edge)
I don't see how they could get edges in roller skating. Funny that they have figures competitions in Roller skating but not in Figure skating.
It puzzles me how judges can score roller skating figures when there's nothing to see once the skaters are done.
I don't care for her skating, but I love Katarina ruminating on how she had to go early and show them how it's done, wondering if she had the chutzpah to do whatever combination, thinking about her triple Rittberger (loop?) and finding time in the middle of all that thinking to flirt with seven men.
Your absolutely right. The loop jump is also called a "Rittberger" after Werner Rittberger, the person who invented it in 1910. Hence, the abbreviation 3R for a Triple Loop
The axel (Axel Paulsen), the lutz (Alois Lutz), and the salchow (Ulrich Salchow), are obviously still known by their inventors names. The flip, like the loop, used to be. The flip was invented by Bruce Mapes, and used to be known as a "Mapes". Ironically, Bruce Mapes also invented the toe loop. However, as far as I know, that jump has never been known as a "Mapes" as that name had already been given to the flip. Another irony, however, is that in artistic roller skating, the toe loop is known as a "Mapes"
Jill Trenary incorporated half-Mapes into her program or at least that's what I called them since I was a roller skater before I was a figure skater. https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=8MqqEmxAQ_c#t=100s
In hindsight it is pretty clear the podium was always going to be Witt, Thomas, and Manley in some order unless Manley really pulled out a total stinker on par with her 87 Worlds LP effort. I feel sorry for the other contenders who in retrospect never really stood a chance no matter what of getting on the podium.
Did you look at the video?
The skaters follow lines painted on the floor.
They're judged partly on how close they stay on the line (ideally all four wheels should always straddle the line) and on speed and posture. Iused to think that ice figures would have benefitted from two separate marks, one for the tracings and the other for speed and posture.
Before the 1988 Olympics, Manley was considered one of the skaters competing for the bronze, others being Kadavy and Trenary. It was a foregone conclusion that 1-2 would be Witt & Thomas in any order. Manley had struggled earlier, but at the 1988 Olympics she delivered two solid performances, which surprised even her. She really threw a wrench in the Thmas-Witt drama by skating great in the LP, which put even more pressure on Thomas. It meant gold or bronze, and not gold or silver for Debi.
Yes, I watched the video. But thanks for clearing up that mystery for me.
I guess because I was comparing the judging process to ice skating, ice skating judges would study the skater's tracings very intently once they were done. Not so much, as they were doing them.
AAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhh, winter olympic memories has disappeared : http://winter-olympic-memories.com/index.htm
Does anyone know if this site is up on another link ?
bad, bad, bad, bad bad bad bad, this is very bad
Yes this was true BEFORE the Olympics but after the short program it was clear Manley was a lock for the podium barring a major meltdown in the LP with Kadavy and Trenary having no chance, and that she was even a threat to place higher. In the SP she was very close to beating Thomas who skated excellently even with an easier combination and two bobbles. Then the figures results with Witt and Manley who are both poor in figures finishing above Trenary and Kadavy who are strong in the phase, and it was clear all around there the judges were going and that was a certain podium of Witt, Thomas, and Manley in some order barring a Manley meltdown (Thomas was already too far ahead to lose a medal with a meltdown by that point).
If Ito had won both the short and long programs, could she have medalled? I'm still unclear of that (assuming the order of the other skaters/programs stays the same except with Ito pushing them down one spot)?
Thomas factored points:
2nd in figures: 1.2
3rd in short: 1.2
4th in long: 4.0
Ito factored points:
10th in figures: 6.0
1st in short: 0.4
1st in long: 1.0
Thomas would have had to lose the LP portion to Trenary for Ito to medal (she beat Trenary in the LP by a 5-4 split).
But a Manley Meltdown was not a rare occurrence. Trenary definitely had a chance for a medal.
In retrospect she didnt though since with how Manley skated and was scored in all phases, and how Thomas and Trenary were being scored they didnt have a prayer of coming close to a medal. Even Thomas with a LP meltdown was well out of their reach, for instance Kadavy wouldnt have even medaled had she won the LP phase and Thomas been pushed down to 5th. Trenary would have had to win the LP phase, which of course she wasnt capable of doing.
Yeah I agree before the LP there was always the hope Manley would have a LP like Canadians and land 0 or 1 triples, in which case there would be a medal chance for either of them, but that was their only hope of a medal at that point.
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