Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Maofan7, Nov 25, 2012.
Let us not forget the second marks were "presentation" marks, not just art marks.
I believe in 1988 they were called Artistic marks (not presentation marks).
ok make it 6.0 tech, 5.8 artistic. Even if I had given 6.0 tech, 5.7 artistic, she would still have won the LP over my 2nd place (Manley 5.9 tech, 5.8 artistic).
Kat won this comfortably and the Judges got it right (1st in the SP, 2nd in the LP behind Liz M). The AI marks your giving Midori way too high. 5.9 (same as Kat) - no way.
All I would change is that Jill T should have got the bronze instead of Debi T
If you feel Witt deserved her gold that is fine, there is definitely a case she did as both she and Manley were overmarked so they balance out, and it is virtually impossible for even those who feel Ito had the best free skating to say she should have won with her low figures placing. However she did not win it comfortably. Had 1 more judge place Manley above Thomas in the SP, or 2 more judges placed Witt below Ito in the LP, she would have lost. Probably had she not had the bobble on the opening jump combination or her camel spin, she would have placed 2nd in the SP and thus beaten Witt overall. Had Thomas done any of her previous seasons LPs, she would have won for sure. Winning gold by placing 3rd in figures, and a distant 2nd and nearly 3rd in the LP is not winning it comfortably.
You may think my artistic marks for Ito are too high, but I dont know how anyone can conclude Witt's SP deserved 1st place over any Ito, Thomas, and Kadavy's programs which appeared visibly superior in almost every conceivable way, especialy the jump combination where she did the easiest of all and still landed it the shakiest, and her overall elements which is the most important thing about the short program were definitely not the best. To each their own.
Well Witt had amazing musicality, interpretation and polish / maturity in everything but that's not all in the A.I. score. She wasn't particularly fast, her ice coverage was mediocre, her program was choreographically simplistic, and her positions were unattractive. I wouldn't have given her anything above a 5.8 on A.I. no matter how Carmen she was.
And really, Trenary had no business being anywhere near the podium given how she skated.
Witt was incredibly musical, and really, her Carmen is iconic. I just wish her technical merit would have been lowered to account for the Manleys and Itos who were way above and with Ito light years above her. But the 80s were a different era, once you established a pecking order it was there to stay. Witt the favorite with outside chance of Thomas to beat her. So Witt got the favorite marks, which were clearly evident after figures. Her LP I'd give 5.6/5.9 tops. Ito 6.0/5.7, and maybe Manley 5.9/5.8, so Ito would have won based on the technical mark which was the tie-breaker at the time.
I've always wondered if Ito's figures were really THAT bad in Calgary or if she just did not have any backing. I know she bombed a figure in 1990 to put her behind Treachary. Didn't the ordinals go down that if she was ninth instead of tenth in figures she would have beaten Jill at 1990 Worlds? Jill was damn lucky to get that 90 championship after that abysmal SP.
I thought I read in an FSU thread that Heiko Fisher (9thin the men's competition) also died at a young age?
If I were Orser I would be more upset about coming in second at the 1984 Olympics. He won both of the freeskating programs and even Scott admits he didn't skate well in the long.
Agree 100% Aliceanne (pretty name btw). Orser should have probably won 1984, but at that time no one was usurping Hamilton. Out of the question.
I just don't know how Orser could be bitter about 88. He didn't skate up to the level needed. It's not like he matched Boitano jump for jump and came out the loser. He did much much less than Boitano. He absolutely needed that second 3axel to make ANY case for first in the LP. He didn't. I can't imagine him being bitter about the result. It was fair. I can imagine him being mad at himself for not going for that second axel, but that is sport, and he was seasoned enough to know better. I wasn't a Boitano lover or even liker at that time, I much preferred Orser and Fadeev. But you really can't argue what Boitano did. It's sport. He won, and deservedly so based on the programs.
The weird music and arms didn't help. I guess it's true that you need grand or at least serious music to win the Olympics.
In his book Orser said when he didnt win in 88 and it was so close, what he became most bitter about in that moment was not winning in 84 which he feels he should have.
Your absolutely correct. He died just 18 months after the 1988 Olympics on the 21st November 1989. He collapsed whilst playing Squash and passed away later in hospital. The official cause of death was Myocarditis which is an inflammation of the heart muscle, something which is usually caused by a virus.
The Heiko Fischer Trophy was set up in his memory and is contested every February
The figures field in Calgary was very strong. People like Trenary and Leistner were only 5th and 6th in figures and Ito even with her best figures would be nowhere near as good as them. So her 10th was probably legitimate. Apparently she improved her figures alot for the 89 Worlds, it was a weaker field, and she still only came 6th in them.
I guess another way to put it is she did not come from a strong enough federation or yet have enough name or backing behind her to get the huge gift and inflation Witt probably got in figures to be 3rd. People like Trenary and Kadavy also didnt get that help as all the U.S support was for Debi at that event.
^ Both Kadavy and Trenary were Fassi skaters, so they had all the support they needed. I have actually heard that Kadavy pulled out because she was going to be used a la Biellmann in 1980 to flip the ordinals to favor Witt over Thomas if they both skated clean. Mueller miscalculated in that Fassi got no benefit from letting Witt win but did win favor with the USFSA by clearing the way for Thomas, but it ultimately did not matter because Thomas did not skate clean.
if Kadavy had so much support why did she place only 5th in the short when she clearly should have been top 3, and behind such an inferior performance as Elizabeth Manley's short program. Trenary tried and landed (albeit a bit shaky) a triple flip combo in the short and was placed only 6th, and even though she was known for her strong figures was placed below Witt and Manley. If they were being supported, whoever was doing it did a crummy job.
Now that's a theory I had never heard before. Kadavy, though exquisite, was just not a good competitor. You could always count on a fall or a couple pops with her. Her bronze in 87 was a great moment for her, but really not expected. I also remember an interview with Diane Rawlinson who stated that even before the Olys, there was talk of Kadavy being ill, and that Tonya as alternate should get ready just in case. (Which is odd, because Jeri Campbell was 4th at Nationals that year, so maybe Diane was just blowing hot air, who knows). Still I don't believe for a minute Kadavy retired from the competition to help Debi Thomas in some convoluted conspiracy theory. She was sick. I'm still amazed she didn't just go out there and skate singles. If I finally made it to the Olympics and had mono/flu, I'd still go out and do the most craptastic version of my program, just to know I competed and placed when I looked back on it. Withdrawing just seems so wimpy, so princessy, so.... Kadavy.
And I have to completely agree with Judge Judy. If Fassi's skaters were well supported, then his supporters were doing a pretty crappy job at it. In fact, it almost seemed like Fassi was being punished that year for unknown reasons. I find it hard to believe Witt or Manley (and even Debi) were better in figures than Kadavy and Trenary. Fassi made his reputation on his ability to teach figures. And then K and T put down clean short programs that contained high difficulty and the judges didn't even seem to notice or care. In retrospect it looked like Fassi was taking a beat-down by the judging panel. I didn't see or feel the Fassi love in 88 quite honestly. Much the opposite.
^ You better believe that Debbie was better in figures, because the only one in the World better than her was Ivanova.
As far as the convoluted theory goes, it is just that. I heard it, and it sort of explained why Kadavy didn't at least try in the LP. Like you said, why do so much to get to the Olympics, then only complete 2/3 of the competition.
But was she really? By your logic you are stating that Witt was the third best in the world at figures, and really..... Witt wasn't. I still hold that Kadavy and Trenary were ahead of Witt (and Thomas) at figures, and for some unknown reason (read, POLITIK) were placed well below them. Trenary and Kadavy were known for their good figures, I really don't remember Thomas as being especially 'good' at them until she won 86 Nationals. Anyway, Carlo certainly didn't work his magic that year that he supposedly was able to do in 1980.
As for w/d'ing at the Olympics, I really think it's a crappy thing to do. Bobek was apparently landing NOTHING in training and CHJ got a call in Cleveland to make sure that Tonia was ready to fill in. Yet Bobek still competed and landed only one triple in both the short and long. In some way I respect Bobek for just going out and doing what she could do. She was the third US lady and no one expected anything of her. Bobek lived her entire life to go to the Olympics and when she did she was injured and way off, yet she competed. I would forever dislike the young woman if she had w/d at the last minute. But she didn't and I don't. I completely understand Bobek falling all over the place in her Olympics. She earned it and it was her self-respect on the line and she chose to go out and embarass herself. It really seems odd that an OLYMPIAN like Kadavy would just w/d. You're there, go out and do what you can. I've competed with flu or bad cold and I know how much it alters your physicality and worse, your emotional sharpness. I hardly ever get sick, but when I do I hate myself, my support system, and want to yell at everyone. But if the Olympics were on the line, I'd put on my big girl britches and SKATE. Your anger should at least be enough for a 3toe in the first 30 seconds. Kadavy is obviously not one I admire as a competitor.
Poor Nicole was Honey Boo Boo Child before the term was coined. On a personal note, my mom was raised in extremely poor circumstances, yet she and her brother ended up earning doctorates. Her two sisters are another story. In fact I love those cousins more, because I find them so interesting and without any airs. I get Nicole, and was sorry she got into meth and all that, but I respect her as a survivor. I would not imagine or expect her to w/d while at the Olympics. I just don't get Kadavy. Even Kwan had enough respect to pull out so that Emily Hughes would be able to compete. Kwan was totally gifted that spot and it was odd that Papa Hughes wasn't raring his head to get Emily on the team. Even Kwan's 'tryout' done behind closed doors and not on camera was a farce. One reporter said she fell on a 2axel and missed a couple of other triples, yet was 'solid'. Umm, yeah. It was obvious that Kwan had sponsorships that required her to be at the 2006 Olys and I would think NO ONE was surprised when she took a fall in practice and then blamed that fall for her w/d. At least someone else was able to be on hand (how convenient) to compete instead of her. I just don't understand someone w/d'ing from Olys after it has started.
ETA: Here is a clip of "Honey Boo Boo Child". I must have been out of the loop, because I had no idea about this little firecracker. I was completely missing the reference to HBB and had to look her up. Tell me this is not a young Nicole being pushed by Jana and Aunt Joyce. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9nbhzKaqvA
I may be imagining this, but I could have sworn that I've seen a video showing Kadavy in bed sick during the LP. Why she agreed to have cameras in her room in her worst moments is beyond me. I also remember reading some tidbits that were way TMI- constant diarrhea, cramps, etc.
Her interview is at 4:20
I didn't think there was a detailed report about Kwan's try-out.
Kwan must've been a brilliant actress because she looked seriously devastated during that practice session in Torino.
Also, Papa Hughes wouldn't have had a claim against naming Kwan to the team since it was within the USFS rules and there was set precedent for them to make that decision.
Level 4 eye roll.
I wouldnt be at all surprised if Thomas was better than Trenary and Kadavy at figures. From footage I have seen of her her figures were excellent. I however highly doubt Witt and Manley were better than Trenary, Leistner, or even Kadavy at figures. Witt's figures in Calgary were a joke from all the footage I have seen, they probably were no better than Ito's, lol! I am sure there were politics in the figures placings, and it definitely was not favoring the Fassi students. The SP placings also did not favor his students relative performance level, especialy Kadavy.
I dont know why people even assume Fassi was a big political power by the 80s. He was in the 60s and 70s, but in the 80s he produced few noteable results after Lake Placid. Even his top female student in the late 70s Emi Watanabe was notoriously undermarked. He seemed to be less in demand as well, his big gun for the Sarajevo Olympics was Manuela Rueben, LOL! None of his students won medals due to his politicing after that point, that is for sure. Jill's World title was because Ito bombed figures, and the weak free skating field, nothing else, and then he moved to Italy guaranteeing he would only be taking up obscure skaters from that point on (until his return to the U.S some years later).
The footage i've seen (not much and obviously no chance to examine the ice) Thomas had wonderful position and flow in her figures (very unlike Witt). Kadavy clearly botched her second figure (the footage shows her losing an edge and skidding over a few inches before regaining it - that was the figures equivalent of falling in your footwork sequence).
Here's ABC's coverage of the Ladies Figures:
You can see Kadavy's 'bobble' as Peggy Pleming put it, at 2.44
Yes, and the ABC coverage also showed that Trenary did well on the last two figures but not well on the first, which was a repeat of her nervousness from the previous Worlds. Also, it is clear Debbie did very well in all three figures but appeared to be somewhat undermarked in the first figure, while all the footage of Witt indicates she had bobbles across all three figures but appeared to be rewarded for improvement, although I do not think that is exactly the judges' role, to reward improvement. Thanks for posting the links, Skatesindreams, I wanted to do the same.
Kwanette, I give the Level 4 Eye Roll +3 GOE.
I always assumed the skaters dressed up for figures. Guess not.
Those vids of 88 figures are interesting. Witt was almost coming to a complete stop during one or two of her figures. How she managed third overall is a mystery. Yes, I saw Kadavy's mistracing, oops. But to have her 7th? Thomas' tracings looked good, so I'm gaining more of an appreciation for her figures. Funny how Manley wasn't shown. Who knows how she really did. If it was worse than Witt, it must have been bad. I'm still not understanding figures skaters Kadavy and Trenary being 5th and 7th. Figures were money in their pockets. Just not in Calgary.
And yay, I achieved a Level 4 eyeroll with +3 GOE. LOL.
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