Retrospective: The 1988 Olympics

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Maofan7, Nov 25, 2012.

  1. Seerek

    Seerek Well-Known Member

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    It's one of those instances where Midori Ito could have won the long program under COP even if Witt was given a full point higher ( or more) on every component mark.
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  2. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Let's get real, Ito's "lack of artistry" was that she had so much technical content that there was no time left, like a CoP program, to just skate around looking pretty a la Witt posing in all her glory and adding little moments of butt shack dancing a la Oksana. All Ito's individual elements would have deserved positive GOEs, including the Ina Bauer into 3/3, her choreography was good in the sense that the element layout on the ice allowed for seamless blending, she had good speed, and her performance was good enough to earn a standing ovation, and even Peggy Fleming said that Midori was charismatic that night, even if she, Midori, was interpreting her music by skating to her music a la Dorothy Hamill rather than performing a drama on ice a la Witt.
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2012
  3. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

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    I always found Ito very musical. Where she was lacking, imo, was her line and extension.

    She really set the 6.0 system on a path to 'growing up' as much as it could. How anyone other than Manley had tech marks w/in .2 of her is just wrong.
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  4. lulu

    lulu New Member

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    ITA, and she would continue to develop as an artist as her career progressed, her "Rain Medley" exhibition is superb.
  5. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    ^but that "Rain Medley" was an exhibition . . . as much an exhibition as Witt's Carmen.
  6. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Compared to who? Midori was no Sasha Cohen or Shizuka Arakawa, but nobody at the 1988 Olympics were as good as them in terms of line and extension, but Ito had a better layback spin and spiral than let us say Yuna Kim; Yuna had a hideous leg position in both elements. Furthermore, I can't say that Witt had particularly nice positions in terms of line and extension except to the extent that the person performing them was pretty.
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2012
  7. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    I think Manley would still hang onto silver even if Ito beat her in the free skate. But it would have been right.

    For me, Manley only placed as high as she did BECAUSE of political judging.
  8. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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  9. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    These would have been my SP and LP placings in Calgary for the ladies event:

    SP: 1. Ito 5.9 tech, 5.8 art
    2. Thomas 5.8 tech, 5.8 art
    3. Kadavy 5.7 tech, 5.9 art
    4. Witt 5.6 tech, 5.9 art
    5. Manley 5.6 tech, 5.7 art
    6. Trenary 5.5 tech, 5.7 art

    LP: 1. Ito 6.0 tech, 5.9 art
    2. Manley 5.9 tech, 5.8 art
    3. Witt 5.7 tech, 5.9 art
    4. Trenary 5.6, 5.8 art
    5. Thomas 5.6 tech, 5.7 art

    If the figures placings remained exactly the same the final results would have been:

    Gold- Manley 6.4 factored points
    Silver- Witt 6.4 factored points (but Manley wins tiebreaker between them which is higher LP placing)
    Bronze- Thomas 7.0 factored points
    4th- Ito 7.4 factored points
    5th- Trenary 9.4 factored points

    Wow I just realized how close the results would have been inspite of the figures and Thomas's bombing the long in this game. Had I placed Thomas over Trenary in the long she would have won the gold in this case. Meanwhile had I placed Thomas below Kadavy in the short, Ito would have won the bronze in this case. I wonder too if Thomas would have done a better LP had she beaten Witt in the SP as she should have, perhaps even by multiple spots as she arguably should have. Had she a somewhat comfortable lead it might have relaxed her more and she would have skated a performance like U.S Nationals and in that case easily won? Maybe just wishful thinking.

    As for Manley her whole attitude in her book was a major turn off. I was a fan of her until then, but insantly became a non fan after getting about halfway through her book. She also whines endlessly about her relationship with Scott Gross and what a terrible person and boyfriend he was to her, blah blah, yet she stayed with him for many years. I am sure he was probably no saint, but I feel sorry for him, whoever he is, as I suspect he is being painted with an unfair brush, as she probably gave those stories a slant on reality like she seems to have given everything a slant on reality based on her book.
  10. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    LOL Witt was no ballerina at all. Most of her positions were plain ugly in fact, some were plain gross. In terms of polish and beauty she was about 5% of a Janet Lynn, Sasha Cohen, or Michelle Kwan. Her choreography was never that good either, nobody coached by Juette Mueller's ever was for that matter. I guess her artistry was based on her theatrical ability on the ice.

    I would say the best in terms of line and extension at the 88 Olympics though was Kadavy by far, Trenary probably a fairly distant 2nd. Oh yeah Kondrashova was also nice in those areas, even though she was always too much a nervous wreck on the ice to show all her talents. I imagine she was a fabulous practice skater though.
  11. paskatefan

    paskatefan Well-Known Member

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    Love, love, love Midori's "Rain" medley!

    All in all , the Calgary Olympics is still my favorite Olympics (winter or summer). After that, I was no longer a casual fs fan.
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  12. kwanette

    kwanette Fetalized since 1998

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    This.
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  13. essence_of_soy

    essence_of_soy Well-Known Member

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    Futher to your analysis, if you factor their compulsory figures results into the equation, Debi would have 2.0 points after the short. Witt would have 3.4 and Manley 4.4.

    I think Debi, knowing the buffer she had between herself and Witt, wouldn't have felt the same pressure that she needed to win the long to win the gold.

    The other scenario is that Manley was never a pressure skater, and if she knew she was in a position to take the title, I don't see her skating as well as she did.
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2012
  14. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Very good points both. It might be Thomas was a victim of Witt's overmarking in the rounds proceding the long program, and Manley was an indirect beneficiary of it.

    I wont say anything too much about the figures results, but I did hear many people who felt Thomas should have won the figures over Ivanova (she did win the last 2, but was surprisingly down in 4th after the 1st), and from what I saw of Witt's figures I cant believe she was 3rd, especialy over strong figures performers like Trenary and Leistner who were only 5th and 6th.
  15. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    The only thing Ito lacked was lines & extension, and given her body type she was never going to develop those compared to other top skaters, but she expressed the music really well, and her personality & charm on the ice was unmatched among singles. She had excellent spins, fast & centered, and she had plenty of transitions (e.g. spread eagles into 3 loop). She could land a triple jump and almost immediately get into a spin.
  16. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I really hope Ito knows just how much her skating had held up and how beloved she is among the fanbase.
  17. Mafke

    Mafke New Member

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    Okay, Ito is my all time favorite skater bar none (Kwan is in a respectable second with a bunch of people elbowing each other for third).

    But.... I don't think her SP and LP were that undermarked. It's hard to see a 1988 program with 1988 eyes in 2012. By the standards of the time she was second or third in the SP and probably no more than second in the LP.

    One crucial point (that gives an idea of what I mean). Ito skated 'young' in that youthful exuberance was a big part of her presentation at a time when ladies were striving to skate as adult women. Ito's skating (like Lynn's Albright's and Zayak's) has aged exceptionally well but it wasn't the total package then that it seems to be now.

    I do agree that Witt was overmarked in all three stages (Peggy Fleming all but says so out loud about figures), Manley was overmarked in the short (postcard spins!) and Thomas was overmarked in the long (which didn't make any difference in final standings - I've done the math and IIRC she could have been fifth or maybe even sixth and still been on the podium).
  18. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    How was Manley's presentation more womenly and mature than Ito though. She skated to many cuts of cartoonish like music and did alot of cartoonish type poses and steps. Her jumps and spins and energy and performance level were all great in her LP, but her actual technical content was closer to Witt than it was to Ito, despite doing a triple lutz, no triple flip, only 4 triples, no triple jump combinations at all (even Witt did a triple toe-double toe atleast). Thomas had she skated clean had more technical difficulty IMO with 5 triples, and a triple-triple, even if nothing harder than a triple loop. I find Manley's skate in Calgary overrated, her LP at the 86 Worlds (which she should have won that phase hands down there), and 86 St. Ivel (which she would have won the 87 Worlds had she duplicated there, as she was in position to unlike Calgary), were both far better IMO, especialy on the presentation side. Still was great for her to have one of her great performances with a World or Olympic medal on the line finally though, rather than in cases like the ones I mentioned where she had nothing much on the line.
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2012
  19. Mafke

    Mafke New Member

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    I think that Manley's Calgary LP was greater than the sum of its parts (some of which weren't maybe that great). But almost everyone was skating to badly edited and often wildly clashing cuts of music then (including Witt and Thomas). But the whole thing holds together remarkably well (to the extent that a viewer remembers 1988 standards in which Witt was cutting edge artistry).

    It wasn't Mnaley's very best but it was close enough on home turf for the whole thing to be irresistable to anyone with eyes and a heart. The single biggest highlight was the music/choreography into and out of the triple salchow - state of the art in 1988 (and only kind of better than average now).

    Ito's free skate (as wonderful as it was) was more for the ages than the time. In terms of jumps it was the 6.0 equivalent of doing too many passes and not getting credit for them. And the rest holds up so well because Ito basically redefined ladies skating not because it was what judges were looking for at the time (which was Witt, Witt and more Witt). The true pioneers are never rewarded at the time.
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  20. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

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    I too love Midori but... hmmmmmm...
  21. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Let us not forget the second marks were "presentation" marks, not just art marks.
  22. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    I believe in 1988 they were called Artistic marks (not presentation marks).
  23. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    ok make it 6.0 tech, 5.8 artistic. Even if I had given 6.0 tech, 5.7 artistic, she would still have won the LP over my 2nd place (Manley 5.9 tech, 5.8 artistic).
  24. Judge Dred

    Judge Dred New Member

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    Kat won this comfortably and the Judges got it right (1st in the SP, 2nd in the LP behind Liz M). The AI marks your giving Midori way too high. 5.9 (same as Kat) - no way.

    All I would change is that Jill T should have got the bronze instead of Debi T
  25. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    If you feel Witt deserved her gold that is fine, there is definitely a case she did as both she and Manley were overmarked so they balance out, and it is virtually impossible for even those who feel Ito had the best free skating to say she should have won with her low figures placing. However she did not win it comfortably. Had 1 more judge place Manley above Thomas in the SP, or 2 more judges placed Witt below Ito in the LP, she would have lost. Probably had she not had the bobble on the opening jump combination or her camel spin, she would have placed 2nd in the SP and thus beaten Witt overall. Had Thomas done any of her previous seasons LPs, she would have won for sure. Winning gold by placing 3rd in figures, and a distant 2nd and nearly 3rd in the LP is not winning it comfortably.

    You may think my artistic marks for Ito are too high, but I dont know how anyone can conclude Witt's SP deserved 1st place over any Ito, Thomas, and Kadavy's programs which appeared visibly superior in almost every conceivable way, especialy the jump combination where she did the easiest of all and still landed it the shakiest, and her overall elements which is the most important thing about the short program were definitely not the best. To each their own.
  26. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Well Witt had amazing musicality, interpretation and polish / maturity in everything but that's not all in the A.I. score. She wasn't particularly fast, her ice coverage was mediocre, her program was choreographically simplistic, and her positions were unattractive. I wouldn't have given her anything above a 5.8 on A.I. no matter how Carmen she was.

    And really, Trenary had no business being anywhere near the podium given how she skated.
  27. Alex Forrest

    Alex Forrest Banned Member

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    Witt was incredibly musical, and really, her Carmen is iconic. I just wish her technical merit would have been lowered to account for the Manleys and Itos who were way above and with Ito light years above her. But the 80s were a different era, once you established a pecking order it was there to stay. Witt the favorite with outside chance of Thomas to beat her. So Witt got the favorite marks, which were clearly evident after figures. Her LP I'd give 5.6/5.9 tops. Ito 6.0/5.7, and maybe Manley 5.9/5.8, so Ito would have won based on the technical mark which was the tie-breaker at the time.

    I've always wondered if Ito's figures were really THAT bad in Calgary or if she just did not have any backing. I know she bombed a figure in 1990 to put her behind Treachary. Didn't the ordinals go down that if she was ninth instead of tenth in figures she would have beaten Jill at 1990 Worlds? Jill was damn lucky to get that 90 championship after that abysmal SP.
  28. aliceanne

    aliceanne Well-Known Member

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    I thought I read in an FSU thread that Heiko Fisher (9thin the men's competition) also died at a young age?
  29. aliceanne

    aliceanne Well-Known Member

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    If I were Orser I would be more upset about coming in second at the 1984 Olympics. He won both of the freeskating programs and even Scott admits he didn't skate well in the long.
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  30. Alex Forrest

    Alex Forrest Banned Member

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    Agree 100% Aliceanne (pretty name btw). Orser should have probably won 1984, but at that time no one was usurping Hamilton. Out of the question.

    I just don't know how Orser could be bitter about 88. He didn't skate up to the level needed. It's not like he matched Boitano jump for jump and came out the loser. He did much much less than Boitano. He absolutely needed that second 3axel to make ANY case for first in the LP. He didn't. I can't imagine him being bitter about the result. It was fair. I can imagine him being mad at himself for not going for that second axel, but that is sport, and he was seasoned enough to know better. I wasn't a Boitano lover or even liker at that time, I much preferred Orser and Fadeev. But you really can't argue what Boitano did. It's sport. He won, and deservedly so based on the programs.
  31. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    The weird music and arms didn't help. I guess it's true that you need grand or at least serious music to win the Olympics.
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  32. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    In his book Orser said when he didnt win in 88 and it was so close, what he became most bitter about in that moment was not winning in 84 which he feels he should have.
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  33. Maofan7

    Maofan7 Away

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    Your absolutely correct. He died just 18 months after the 1988 Olympics on the 21st November 1989. He collapsed whilst playing Squash and passed away later in hospital. The official cause of death was Myocarditis which is an inflammation of the heart muscle, something which is usually caused by a virus.

    The Heiko Fischer Trophy was set up in his memory and is contested every February
  34. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    The figures field in Calgary was very strong. People like Trenary and Leistner were only 5th and 6th in figures and Ito even with her best figures would be nowhere near as good as them. So her 10th was probably legitimate. Apparently she improved her figures alot for the 89 Worlds, it was a weaker field, and she still only came 6th in them.

    I guess another way to put it is she did not come from a strong enough federation or yet have enough name or backing behind her to get the huge gift and inflation Witt probably got in figures to be 3rd. People like Trenary and Kadavy also didnt get that help as all the U.S support was for Debi at that event.
  35. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    ^ Both Kadavy and Trenary were Fassi skaters, so they had all the support they needed. I have actually heard that Kadavy pulled out because she was going to be used a la Biellmann in 1980 to flip the ordinals to favor Witt over Thomas if they both skated clean. Mueller miscalculated in that Fassi got no benefit from letting Witt win but did win favor with the USFSA by clearing the way for Thomas, but it ultimately did not matter because Thomas did not skate clean.
  36. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    if Kadavy had so much support why did she place only 5th in the short when she clearly should have been top 3, and behind such an inferior performance as Elizabeth Manley's short program. Trenary tried and landed (albeit a bit shaky) a triple flip combo in the short and was placed only 6th, and even though she was known for her strong figures was placed below Witt and Manley. If they were being supported, whoever was doing it did a crummy job.
  37. Alex Forrest

    Alex Forrest Banned Member

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    Now that's a theory I had never heard before. Kadavy, though exquisite, was just not a good competitor. You could always count on a fall or a couple pops with her. Her bronze in 87 was a great moment for her, but really not expected. I also remember an interview with Diane Rawlinson who stated that even before the Olys, there was talk of Kadavy being ill, and that Tonya as alternate should get ready just in case. (Which is odd, because Jeri Campbell was 4th at Nationals that year, so maybe Diane was just blowing hot air, who knows). Still I don't believe for a minute Kadavy retired from the competition to help Debi Thomas in some convoluted conspiracy theory. She was sick. I'm still amazed she didn't just go out there and skate singles. If I finally made it to the Olympics and had mono/flu, I'd still go out and do the most craptastic version of my program, just to know I competed and placed when I looked back on it. Withdrawing just seems so wimpy, so princessy, so.... Kadavy.

    And I have to completely agree with Judge Judy. If Fassi's skaters were well supported, then his supporters were doing a pretty crappy job at it. In fact, it almost seemed like Fassi was being punished that year for unknown reasons. I find it hard to believe Witt or Manley (and even Debi) were better in figures than Kadavy and Trenary. Fassi made his reputation on his ability to teach figures. And then K and T put down clean short programs that contained high difficulty and the judges didn't even seem to notice or care. In retrospect it looked like Fassi was taking a beat-down by the judging panel. I didn't see or feel the Fassi love in 88 quite honestly. Much the opposite.
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2012
  38. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    ^ You better believe that Debbie was better in figures, because the only one in the World better than her was Ivanova.

    As far as the convoluted theory goes, it is just that. I heard it, and it sort of explained why Kadavy didn't at least try in the LP. Like you said, why do so much to get to the Olympics, then only complete 2/3 of the competition.
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2012
  39. Alex Forrest

    Alex Forrest Banned Member

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    But was she really? By your logic you are stating that Witt was the third best in the world at figures, and really..... Witt wasn't. I still hold that Kadavy and Trenary were ahead of Witt (and Thomas) at figures, and for some unknown reason (read, POLITIK) were placed well below them. Trenary and Kadavy were known for their good figures, I really don't remember Thomas as being especially 'good' at them until she won 86 Nationals. Anyway, Carlo certainly didn't work his magic that year that he supposedly was able to do in 1980.

    As for w/d'ing at the Olympics, I really think it's a crappy thing to do. Bobek was apparently landing NOTHING in training and CHJ got a call in Cleveland to make sure that Tonia was ready to fill in. Yet Bobek still competed and landed only one triple in both the short and long. In some way I respect Bobek for just going out and doing what she could do. She was the third US lady and no one expected anything of her. Bobek lived her entire life to go to the Olympics and when she did she was injured and way off, yet she competed. I would forever dislike the young woman if she had w/d at the last minute. But she didn't and I don't. I completely understand Bobek falling all over the place in her Olympics. She earned it and it was her self-respect on the line and she chose to go out and embarass herself. It really seems odd that an OLYMPIAN like Kadavy would just w/d. You're there, go out and do what you can. I've competed with flu or bad cold and I know how much it alters your physicality and worse, your emotional sharpness. I hardly ever get sick, but when I do I hate myself, my support system, and want to yell at everyone. But if the Olympics were on the line, I'd put on my big girl britches and SKATE. Your anger should at least be enough for a 3toe in the first 30 seconds. Kadavy is obviously not one I admire as a competitor.

    Poor Nicole was Honey Boo Boo Child before the term was coined. On a personal note, my mom was raised in extremely poor circumstances, yet she and her brother ended up earning doctorates. Her two sisters are another story. In fact I love those cousins more, because I find them so interesting and without any airs. I get Nicole, and was sorry she got into meth and all that, but I respect her as a survivor. I would not imagine or expect her to w/d while at the Olympics. I just don't get Kadavy. Even Kwan had enough respect to pull out so that Emily Hughes would be able to compete. Kwan was totally gifted that spot and it was odd that Papa Hughes wasn't raring his head to get Emily on the team. Even Kwan's 'tryout' done behind closed doors and not on camera was a farce. One reporter said she fell on a 2axel and missed a couple of other triples, yet was 'solid'. Umm, yeah. It was obvious that Kwan had sponsorships that required her to be at the 2006 Olys and I would think NO ONE was surprised when she took a fall in practice and then blamed that fall for her w/d. At least someone else was able to be on hand (how convenient) to compete instead of her. I just don't understand someone w/d'ing from Olys after it has started.

    ETA: Here is a clip of "Honey Boo Boo Child". I must have been out of the loop, because I had no idea about this little firecracker. I was completely missing the reference to HBB and had to look her up. Tell me this is not a young Nicole being pushed by Jana and Aunt Joyce. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9nbhzKaqvA
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2012
  40. dawnie

    dawnie Active Member

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    I may be imagining this, but I could have sworn that I've seen a video showing Kadavy in bed sick during the LP. Why she agreed to have cameras in her room in her worst moments is beyond me. I also remember reading some tidbits that were way TMI- constant diarrhea, cramps, etc.