Retrospective: The 1986 World Championships

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Maofan7, Sep 15, 2012.

  1. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    Monday morning quarterbacking IMO. Angela had a good shot at both 98 and certainly 02 Olys. Yeah, Bobek and Tonia would both be hard to beat, but both were also notoriously inconsistent with plenty of meltdowns on their resumes, so 98 would have been tough but not impossible. 99, 00, and 01 world teams were all there easily within her grasp, and she in fact made 2 of the 3 teams. 02 Cohen had only 00 nats to her credit, a terrible back injury and a horrible comeback at 01 SA. Sorry Angela, but you simply were out-skated at both events.
     
  2. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    As it was though Bobek did skate very well at the 98 Nationals and Cohen and Hughes did skate very well at the 2002 Nationals. If one of them had screwed up in a big way she had a shot to make it had she skated very well but that didnt happen.
     
  3. 4rkidz

    4rkidz GPF Barcelona here I come

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    watching those links led me to watching the 'my sergei' documentary.. made me cry all over again.. my all time favourite pair team lol.. glad Katia was able to move forward with her life..:D
     
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  4. Alex Forrest

    Alex Forrest Banned Member

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    Well, I would have had Nikodinov WIN the LP at 97 Nats. She had far more elegance than Lipinski, and she jumped and spun well. Who knows where that would have placed her had she won. Everyone seemed to be so happy that Bobek flounced and bounced and flutzed and deluded her fans thinking she was back. 1997 was the year that Nikodinov should have gone first to Worlds. Fassi might still be alive had he been back in Arrowhead training a misguided Bobek during that time. Instead he goes to this competition at altitude with Bobek who has NO chance, since she's basically a feck up.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7qKyUKtxoU

    This is one of the few performances I always seem to find myself Youtubing. Oppegard did such a great job in getting a passive loner to get into character. IMO it still stands up.

    Caryn Kadavy was a mystery in the 80s. Debi could move and had great ability, but Caryn was extra special. She gave up and would double and single everything after two minutes, if not before. And that's when she trained at altitude. Caryn and Angela must have had the same therapist because they were screwed.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2012
  5. lulu

    lulu New Member

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    I have so much respect for Katia. Apart from the fact that she & Sergei were phenomenal pairs skaters (check out their footwork sequence in their SP :) ), apart from the fact that after losing her husband & skating partner, she went on to become a great singles skater, just the fact that she's skated at an elite level since she was 13/14 years old is incredible :kickass:

    My favorite performance & program though is by Selezneva & Makarov. Thanks to watching their performances on youtube, this team (along with B&S) are my favorite pair team after M&D. They were so voidy. The sbs jumps, throws, "flip-out" dismount-I have no idea what to call it :p, all top-notch. :swoon:

    I like V&V's choreography & maturity, their program is lovely.

    Okay, hypberbolic gushing over pairs over... :p
     
  6. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    debi was never given any benefit of doubt. The mid 80s were ruled by the Sasha Cohen of the time: Tiffany I'm-hyped-as-god's-gift-to-skating-but-I-can't-skate-a-clean-lp-to-save-my-life Chin.
     
  7. TwizzlerS

    TwizzlerS Well-Known Member

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    I attended US Nationals on Long Island in 1986. Debi skated like a champion with speed, power, and high jumps. She commanded the ice. Tiffany had little bitty jumps and skated slow. Maybe this was the result of her "muscle imbalance" or the odd training she was getting. But, it was a clear difference between those two. Caryn was lovely to watch. I seem to remember she had a bit of trouble in the short program but came back strong in the long.

    Some other highlights from this Nationals were watching Yamaguchi & Galindo do SBS 3flips and win the Junior Pair title and Mark Mitchell win the Junior Men's title. I also remember seeing Paul Wylie and Tonya Harding for the first time and was very impressed.
     
  8. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Tiffany started with Mabel Fairbanks, who later referred her to Janet Champion. After Janet Champion, Tiffany was led to the Jr. World Championship by Frank Carroll. She had the 3A in practice for a short time (maybe one season) after leaving Frank to skate with John Nicks.

    I'm not certain who one could credit with her Axel technique since it probably started with waltz jumps with Fairbanks and 1A with Champion. Probably only Frank and John would really know who to credit, but would probably point the finger at the other three except in their own company.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2012
  9. floskate

    floskate Vacant

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    Chin's triple axel
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GE9pApU53W0

    They are so beautiful and secure! Someone mentions on the comments thread seeing her land a triple axel in practice at 1986 Nationals which is interesting. (There are also some idiots who are convinced this is only a double axel :lol: err ok!) It's strange she never tried it in competition early on especially when there was little to lose. It looks so much stronger than her triple salchow.
     
  10. skatesindreams

    skatesindreams Well-Known Member

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    I think your thoughts about Tiffany are accurate, floskate.
    One of the sadder cases of "what might have been", IMO.
     
  11. Alex Forrest

    Alex Forrest Banned Member

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    I always thought that Debi was on the slower side. She skated with muscularity and overt athleticism, but I never really thought of Chin as being much behind her in terms of speed. Plus, Chin was exquisite. It's hard to compare jumps, because after 84, she was only good for usually one or two triples in a LP, but her axel was gorgeous, and with her whole head/muscle imbalance thing it was pointless to compare since Chin was on her way down. The Fassi skaters, Kadavy and Trenary, were faster than Debi from memory.

    Was there really a feeling of Chin being given more a push than Debi? I seem to recall way back in 1985 that Debi was being given the push. Both were pioneers for their race in the sport and I think the USTA was happy to have both. I'll have to go rewatch 85 Nationals and compare.

    Chin 85USN LP: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgbP4AZE2fg
    Kadavy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gg-9xiwPv6U&feature=related (notice Caryn nose pre-rhinoplasty)
    Thomas: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5ctt2Lkb54

    This is how I would have ranked the LPs. Chin had the "It" factor, Kadavy was lovely and graceful, and Debi was a bit behind in her presentation even though she attempted twice the triples.

    I'm just not seeing how Debi was placed down to favor Chin, "Sasha Cohen" of the 80s. The next year Debi was US and World champ for heaven's sake and Chin was skating as fast as she could to oblivion.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2012
  12. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

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    Debi "skated with muscularity?":rolleyes:
     
  13. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

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    Was Chin practicing 3flips in practices? The commentators always expected her to do a 3f in the beginning, but Chin never looked like she planned to go for a triple at all.

    It was odd that the last third of this LP only has a 2lutz and a 2a when her main competitor, Witt, had a 3t.
     
  14. Alex Forrest

    Alex Forrest Banned Member

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    Yes, IMO she did. :rolleyes: back at you. Debi had a little grace, but not as much as Chin and Kadavy. (But then again, I thought that you can't have a little grace. You either have grace, or you, don't...) It didn't stop me from liking her skating, I was a big fan and was glad when she became the first black woman's world champ and the first black athlete ever to win a medal at the Winter Olympic Games. I wasn't putting Debi down. Back to apples and oranges, some prefer the beauty of Elvis Stojko's skating while others go for a Mark Mitchell or Viktor Petrenko style. No need to be rude, Coco.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2012
  15. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I used to actually think Debi Thomas was highly overrated and overmarked during her career but with time I have come to appreciate her more and dont feel that way anymore. I would say her skating stands the test of time well, unlike someone like Trenary who people liked at the time but roll their eyes at whenever mentioned now.

    In any case Thomas was definitely not ever held down in favor of Chin. The moment she passed Chin as a better skater in 1986, she was immediately marked much higher and placed ahead of. In 1985 even with Chin already on decline Thomas was not yet better, she had too many rough edges at that point. Thomas was always a big favorite of the USFSA from my view, especialy after her U.S title. She won the short program at Nationals in 88 over Kadavy who did a harder combination and a highly artistic performance. She won the short program at Nationals in 87 by almost every judge despite that Trenary did her cleanest triple flip combination ever. She was given highly inflated scores for her poor long program performance at the 87 Nationals. Thomas was no Zayak, now that is someone who was continously screwed over by the U.S judges and international judges alike as her career went on, Debi was definitely no victim ever in her career really. Chin meanwhile was done no favors after Thomas, Kadavy, and Trenary began their rises in the fall of 85. I wouldnt say she was treated unfairly but she definitely wasnt propped up in any sense. By 1987, maybe even 1986, it was clear even a clean Chin with a few triples would not make the top 3 or even the World team if all of Thomas, Trenary, and Kadavy skated fairly well.
     
  16. Alex Forrest

    Alex Forrest Banned Member

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    I agree /\

    I think early Debi Thomas was a bit overrated, but I really like her Carmen, which was finally the year I felt she got her presentation in order (Didn't she also previously choreograph her own numbers but not for Carmen?). I just never saw her as being held down, there was always a nice plug for her, her schooling, her ambitions. Peggy of course was in love with Kadavy, but eventually it became clear that as wonderful (and IMO much much better skater) as Kadavy was in that quad, she did not possess a champion's mindset.

    Looking at those 85 LPs, I would have placed Kadavy second and therefore had her going to Worlds that year instead of Debi. I wonder if Kadavy would have ironed out some mental kinks by going to Worlds a year earlier and possibly helped her trajectory? Who knows. But Kadavy's first Worlds in 86 would have been much different had she not had first time nerves. She was basically a lock to win the SP at Worlds and then needed a helmet for her easy 2axel, which she'd land 4 of in the LP.
     
  17. Seerek

    Seerek Well-Known Member

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    One footnote from the ladies competition: It was recently re-crowned Canadian champion Tracey Wainman's final World Championship finishing 9th overall (5th figures, 11th short and long programs). The story goes that Tracey was intending to continue as an eligible skater the following season but Skate Canada did not assign her any fall international competitions after summer monitoring.
     
  18. Canadask8er

    Canadask8er New Member

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    I heard it was because she still only had one triple (the salchow) in her arsenal. I also heard in 86 she started seeing Josef Sabovchek (sp?) and maybe not focussing on her training anymore. Plus, Liz Manley had just skated an amazing program at 86 Worlds so the attention was on her!
     
  19. Frau Muller

    Frau Muller President of Dick Button Appreciation Club

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    Back to the Pairs. Here is a full performance of Valova/Vasiliev's LP 'Shurale.' It's from the '86 Euros, which they won, & not Worlds, but at least it gives us a chance to see that lovely program in full since it seems to have been chacked by most Western TV channels. Enjoy!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXWBngmvfTo
     
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  20. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Didnt Valova & Vasiliev skate poorly in the long program at those Worlds? I wonder had they skated cleanly if they would have won this year. If they had won that year I wonder how much more interesting that would have made the next couple years, and if it would have been as easy for G&G to climb on top for 88. Then again in the short program V&V skated cleanly and still lost a 5-4 split to G&G so perhaps the changing of guard was at hand anyway.
     
  21. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

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    Back to the men. After the 1984 Olympics, Brian Orser was clearly the expected favorite for the next 4 years, but he lost to Fadeev in 1985, and to Boitano in 1986. IMO this was a turning point for both Brians and a start of their rivalry for the 1988 Olympics. Boitano won the world championship before Orser did, which established Boitano as a contender and created further doubts about Orser- will he ever win a championship? Orser did win it in 1987 but by then he was only a marginal favorite over Boitano. Fadeev was not mentioned alongside these two, after the 1986 worlds. It was clear that the 1988 OGM would be won by one of the Brians (at that time Orser was slightly favored because of his artistry).
     
  22. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    This was a huge turning point for Fadeev too. He had such a big lead after the figures and short program, he needed to place only 3rd or 4th in the LP to win these Worlds which would have been incredibly easy for him, he could have even skated a program with just 3 mistakes instead of 5 and done so. Everyone thought he had a lock on his 2nd World title going into the LP, even Orser in his autobiography said he was all but certain Fadeev would win before the LP so felt relaxed, and had no idea when he went out to skate Fadeev had bombed and the gold was in reach, and he was even more devasted when he realized Boitano had won and that he had only needed a solid program to win after what happened to Fadeev and Sabovcik earlier. As a 2 time World Champion Fadeev would have been clearly the man to beat only 2 years out from the Games. Instead after this he got lost in the shuffle of the Brian vs Brian rivalry, and continued to self destruct in World events and drop further down the ranks to being out of the medals altogether by Calgary.

    I would say it was a turning point for Boitano, more than for Orser. Before this event Boitano was an afterthought and thought to be below Fadeev, Orser, and Sabovcik. As an example he skated a clean short program at this event and was placed only 5th. Yet he stepped up when nobody else did and shocked the skating World by winning the title. After this event he became a huge factor and frontrunner in the mens event heading to Calgary. His status literally changed overnight.
     
  23. lulu

    lulu New Member

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    I'm curious as to where Bechke & Kornienko might have ended up had they competed at Worlds? They stood in for the SelMaks at Euros that year and won the bronze medal behind G&G and V&V. I'm not too familiar with this team, and this is the only video on youtube that I was able to find: http://youtu.be/aDvkndlziA4

    Question a bit out of the blue here, but I just "discovered" (much the same way Columbus discover America ;) ) this team, and from the 1984 Skate Canada video, while they probably weren't destined to become a great pair, they did have some interesting pair moves. Why did their partnership end?
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2012
  24. oliver32

    oliver32 Member

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    Does anyone have any of joanne conway's '86 programs on video?
     
  25. SmallFairy

    SmallFairy Well-Known Member

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    Thank you Maofan, for the videos and the retrospectives in general, I love them, they give me a chance to really get into the events that took place before my time;)

    Gotta love the 80ies. Every program sound like it's skates to music from a Jackie Chan-movie, with some synth-classical piece here and there.

    Who's the guy commentating singles who's screaming worse then Norweigans skiing commentators? He's reeeeeeally annoying lol:p