Retrospective: The 1972 Olympics

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Maofan7, Mar 19, 2013.

  1. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    It is strange to keep hearing Schuba did mostly only singles in her free skate, as she was capable of doing all the double jumps other than the double axel, and had done so at Europeans before the Games. This suggest her free skate wasnt her best even for her own moderate standards, or she purposely scaled back to avoid any possible disaester and still be sure of winning. Sonja Morgenstern must have made an impressive debut, she was 3rd in free skating, and even took two 1st place votes in the free skate. I have seen some footage of her and she could do triples which were rare then. However she seemed to dissapear from there, I wonder what happened, she was young enough you would think she would have been the heir apparent to be the next German World Champion and Olympic medalist.
  2. floskate

    floskate Vacant

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    /\ I already posted a detailed and accurate pbp of what Trixie actually did in her Olympic LP earlier in this thread.
  3. Maofan7

    Maofan7 Away

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    Sonja Morgenstern (who was coached by Jutta Müller) actually included a 3S in her free program at the 1972 Olympics. Her 3rd place in the FS moved her up from 8th after the compulsories, to 6th overall. At this point, she was the East German number 1 (having won the East German Championships 2 years in a row), although Christine Errath posed a very serious threat to her in that respect. Errath finished 5th in the FP at the 72 Olympics, which moved her up from 11th in the compulsories to 8th overall. Because the two of them were so closely matched, with Morgenstern having a slight advantage, their rivalry was a notable one at the time. Morgenstern was in with a very good chance of going on to win the 1976 Olympics. However, she was forced to retire at the end of the 1972/73 season due to injury. Instead, therefore, it was her rival, Christine Errath, who would go on to win the 1974 World Championships and finish 3rd at the 1976 Olympics. Given that Morgenstern invariably had the upper hand over Errath due to her free skating ability and better compulsories, its undoubtedly the case that Morgenstern would have stood a very good chance of becoming a world and Olympic champion given what Errath herself achieved, had she not been forced to retire prematurely. With Morgenstern capable of performing triple jumps, Dorothy Hamill instead became the last ladies singles skater to win the Olympics without a triple jump. By 1976, the value contributed by compulsories had been reduced from 50% at the 1972 Olympics, to just 30%. A short program had also been introduced, which made up 20% of the marks. The free program contributed 50%. Hence, the ability to regularly produce triple jumps would have given Morgenstern a significant advantage, and she therefore would most certainly have been in in with a major chance of taking the 1976 Olympic title.

    These days, Christine Errath is a well known TV presenter in Germany.

    Morgenstern became a teacher, and then a beautician, after her retirement. She was also briefly a coach, coaching Stefan Lindemann. After German reunification, she was shocked and very upset to discover that like Katerina Witt, she had been subjected to some very intrusive surveillance by the Stasi

    Here are some photographs from various points in Morgenstern's skating career
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2013
  4. neptune

    neptune New Member

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    There's a difference between saying "Person X is a rude person" and "Behavior Y is rude behavior."

    Let's say I have a friend named Jack, who is in general a very nice person. One day, I invite Jack over to my house for a meal. At the dinner table, Jack frequently talks with his mouth full, and doesn't cover his mouth when he sneezes. Does this automatically make Jack a rude person? No. But I think most people would consider that to be rude behavior, or at least a lack of manners. Is it intentional? Probably not. Jack probably just doesn't know any better. But people who don't really know him may be turned off by his behavior and get the wrong impression. That's all I'm saying.

    Anyway, 1972 Olympics sounds like it was an interesting competition. :)
  5. neptune

    neptune New Member

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    And that's something I really respect about Janet. :respec: Modesty seems to be a rare commodity in competitive sports, among celebrities, etc.
  6. neptune

    neptune New Member

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    Trixi never fell in her figures, though! Solid as a rock. ;)
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  7. neptune

    neptune New Member

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    That's too bad. What was her specific injury? Did she go to '73 Worlds at all?
  8. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

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    Any of chance of an interview with Trixi Schuba? I think that would be fascinating.
  9. skatak

    skatak Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the interesting thread !

    All the marks from the result page is quite conufing at first.

    I'm just realising my ignorance.. so if I get it correctly, at that time it was the score that counted, not the ranks.
    Bit like nowadays' system.
    Interestingly, you could tie skaters ! Like the japanese judge awarding 5.7+5.7 twice, ranking two skaters at '4.5'.

    When was the 6.0 system introduced ? I mean, the one with only ranking counting. Was it at the end of figures ?
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  10. skatak

    skatak Well-Known Member

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    another question : how were the compulsories split over two days ? how many times did you have to repeat a pattern ?

    (forget first part of the question, it was all written ^^)
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2013
  11. floskate

    floskate Vacant

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    Skatak, factored placements were introduced after the 1980 season. An interesting change that, had it been implemented 12 month earlier, would have given OGM's to Jan Hoffmann and Linda Fratianne! The figures were over two days because it was simply impossible to get through all six figures for all competitors in one day. When figures were reduced from six to three, they were held on a single day.

    Neptune, Sonja Morgenstern did go to Worlds in 1973 but she was not fully recovered from a leg injury and finished 8th overall. It is a shame as the new SP would also have greatly helped her had she been in form.
  12. floskate

    floskate Vacant

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  13. Maofan7

    Maofan7 Away

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    Thank you so much Floskate and what a superb montage (which can be found in Floskate's thread here). I wish I knew how to produce a video as professionally as that. I must give it a try some time!
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2013
  14. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    I picture East Germany as not having many beauticians but lots of shoddy curling irons and hair dryers. ;) Were they state owned?
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  15. nylynnr

    nylynnr Active Member

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    Janet is outspoken on a range of issues in skating today, particularly concerning IJS, USFS "Moves in the Field" tests, what constitutes good coaching, etc.
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  16. manleywoman

    manleywoman podcast mistress

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    Re: Trixie Schuba, I Would love to interview her. There are a lot of skaters from that era I'd love to interview: Scott Allen, Tim Wood, Manfred Schnelldorfer, etc. If I had time to do one interview per week instead of per month, I still couldn't get to everyone!

    Floskate: I'd love it (and think it would be a useful resource for others) if you could do a detailed blog post on the history of skating judging. How it evolved, how it worked, etc.
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  17. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    It sounds like the assessment she did mostly single jumps that day is unfair as it looks like she did mostly doubles. Why didnt she do the double axels in competition if she did them in practice? It wasnt like she had to worry about losing her lead even if she fell. In a situation with no pressure I would think she would want to show her best, even in free skating.
  18. floskate

    floskate Vacant

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    OMG do you mean a blog or a book? That's a big topic right there. I still don't fully understand total points, despite hours pouring over marks to try and decipher which judge put which skater where :lol: And you sooo should interview Trixie Schuba. In fact I'd say there's a lot of untapped skating interview potential over here in Europe!
  19. Maofan7

    Maofan7 Away

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    Sports Illustrated article on the 1970 U.S. Nationals, which focuses on many of the American skaters who would compete at the Olympics 2 years later.
  20. Minou

    Minou Member

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    Meow.

    Since this thread began, I have been wondering what happened to Sukairin? Wikipdedia gives slightly different info in English, Russian and French... It seems he coached Selezneya and Makarov and Bushkrov. Any good links or leads?
  21. skatak

    skatak Well-Known Member

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    I'd be very much interested in reading it !
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  22. sadya

    sadya Active Member

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    So would I and I think it'd be a help for many people to understand the history of the sport better. Watching skating competitions from the past decades would become better if one could understand why skaters were judged a certain way. The rules keep changing and you can't find every peace of information, so it would be easier to find if there would be one complete source of correct information.
  23. neptune

    neptune New Member

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    Thanks for the info, floskate.
  24. neptune

    neptune New Member

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    This is what I'd like to know--before COP, was there ever "detailed" scoring in the technical mark of a non-figures segment, or just a single score from each judge? E.g., Skater A gets a 5.4 for technical merit, don't bother to ask why. ;)
  25. floskate

    floskate Vacant

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    This is an interesting one. There was a book - hate to suggest maybe Brennan? - that showed a judges notes from a US Nationals IIRC. They made notes of all elements completed and scored based on the content. However there was no adding up of elements whereby a 7 triple ladies program complete with centred spins and a quick step sequence = 5.9. I do remember lots of cryptic comments from commentators saying that a skater wouldn't get 'full credit' for an element if it was 2footed or not totally clean, but it was never made clear how this actually came about. ;)
  26. neptune

    neptune New Member

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    Thanks--that's helpful, floskate.

    I personally think there should be someone who officially enumerates all the elements for the judges to see, BUT I don't think there should be any points explicitly added up on paper. I think the judges should each look at the list of elements completed and give out a technical-merit mark that is not an absolute mark but a relative one. Under the current system, the judges can't see the forest for all the trees, it seems. However, it seems that it's fairly straightforward for judges to decide, "OK, Skater C was better in technical merit than Skater E, but not better than Skater B, etc."
  27. manleywoman

    manleywoman podcast mistress

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    Try anyway. Please! I can't think of anywhere where there is a history of judging and how it worked, except for a quick paragraph in one of the 1990s books (Brennan?) that covered the basics of 6.0. I think it went over the Nancy/Oksana outcome, but that was all.

    Truer words were never spoken. I have a looooong list of people I want to interview, and wish I had the resources (time/money) to do it weekly instead of monthly. (The PSA Conference is here in May, and I'm getting as many people as I can while they are here). If you have contact information on anyone, I'm glad to take it and do my best to get an interview done.