Retrospective: The 1964 Olympics

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Maofan7, Jun 21, 2012.

  1. Maofan7

    Maofan7 Member

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    Retrospective takes a look back at the 1964 Olympics.

    The key facts are:-

    • The ladies competition was won comfortably by then 2 time and reigning world champion, Sjoukje Dijkstra. Dijkstra would then go on to retain her world title later in 1964 (winning it for a 3rd consecutive time), and then retired to tour with Holiday on Ice. She is the last ladies skater to win an Olympic gold medal, having won a silver or bronze medal at a previous Olympics (she won the silver medal at the 1960 Olympics, the gold having been won by Carol Heiss).
    • The bronze medal in the ladies competition was won by Canada's Petra Burka. She would go onto win the world title in 1965
    • One intriguing aspect about the ladies competition is the great 'what if', in terms of who would have won the gold medal had Laurence Owen not been killed as a result of the crash of Sabena Flight 548 in 1961. One yardstick by which to gauge how things may have panned out is Wendy Griner. Owen had just beaten Griner into second place to win the 1961 North American Championships. Griner then went on to take the Silver medal at the 1962 World Championships, finishing second to Dijkstra. Hence, even as early as 1962, it would appear as though Owen would have been challenging Dijkstra for supremacy.
    • The pairs competition was won by the Protopopovs. They would retain their Olympic title at the 1968 Olympics, and win 4 consecutive world titles from 1965-68.
    • The pairs silver medal was won by Marika Kilius & Hans-Jürgen Bäumler, who had also won silver at the 1960 Olympics. However, in 1966, it was alleged that they had signed a professional contract prior to the 1964 Olympics. Consequently, they were stripped of their 1964 Olympic silver medals. Nevertheless, the charges against them were dropped by the IOC in 1987, and they were therefore given their silver medals back
    • The gold in the men's competition was won by Manfred Schnelldorfer. He was a surprise winner, as the favourite going into the competition had been Alain Calmat. However, Calmat was notoriously inconsistent, and he fell 3 times during his free program (Calmat would, nevertheless, go on to win the 1965 World title, before retiring). Schnelldorfer was also a pop star at the time. This is one of his tunes from 1964.
    • The winner of the bronze in the men's competition was America's Scott Allen. This was an important medal for the United States, as it was their first Olympic medal following the 1961 air disaster. Allen was only 14 years old at the time, and he still holds the record as the youngest ever male skater to win an Olympic medal (unlikely to ever be beaten given that the current age restrictions are likely to remain in place)
    • It will be noted that the German competitors are listed as having represented 'Germany' in these Olympics, as opposed to 'West' or 'East' Germany. This is because they competed as part of a unified team at these Olympics

    Here are some videos of the medal winning performances:-

    MENS

    Gold: Manfred Schnelldorfer (Germany)

    This video features clips from the free programs of all 3 medallists

    Silver: Alain Calmat (France)

    As well as the clip from the above video, there is also this video of his free program from the 1965 world championships, which he won

    Bronze: Scott Allen (USA)

    See video above for clip

    LADIES

    Gold: Sjoukje Dijkstra (Netherlands)

    Compulsories

    Free Skate

    Short Clip from Free Skate + Medal Ceremony

    1964 Post Olympic ISU Tour of Champions

    1963 Tour of Champions

    Silver: Regine Heitzer (Austria)

    Free Skate

    Bronze: Petra Burka (Canada)

    No video available. However, this video features her free program from the 1965 world championships, which she won.

    PAIRS

    Gold: Ludmila Belousova & Oleg Protopopov (USSR)

    Free Skate

    Silver: Marika Kilius & Hans-Jürgen Bäumler (Germany)

    Free Skate

    Bronze: Debbi Wilkes & Guy Revell (Canada)

    No video available
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2012
  2. essence_of_soy

    essence_of_soy Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for sharing, and for the hypothesis on Laurence Owen, as well.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2012
  3. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Hopefully she would have won. Dijkstra is a ghastly free skater, although one of the best ever in figures.
     
  4. sadya

    sadya Active Member

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    Her autobiography stated that Heiss told her that she believed Dijkstra would be the next Olympic Champion. If I remember correctly, it was on the Olympic podium which crowned Heiss that she told Dijkstra she'd be the next winner.

    Of course ice is slippery, how often do we think skaters will win and then things like nerves, growth, stress fractures, etc. happen or new better talents come along by the time the next Olympics begin.

    I love the skating of Owen. Just looking at her makes me smile, she takes you into her happy skating world when she's on ice at '61 championships. By the time of '64 Games she would have improved her already lovely skating and it could have been quite an exciting ladies long program event.
     
  5. DORISPULASKI

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

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    The only things I remember about this Olympics was the wonderful performance of the Protopopovs (I became an instant fan), and outrage at the high marks for Alain Calmat's utterly disastrous free skate. Not only did he have no triple jumps (and this is 16 years after Dick Button landed the first one), he fell several times during the program, which lost all coherence as a result.

    It still remains my second "most wuz robbed" moment in skating fandom.
     
  6. matti

    matti Active Member

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    The victory of the Protopopovs was controversial, though. It was a 5-4 decision. Particularly judge Suzanne Francis of Canada (judges' and officials' oathswearer in Calgary 1988) gained notoriety by putting Wilkes&Revell second over Kilius&Bäumler. 16 years later in Lake Placid she again was under suspicion when she awarded an artistic mark of 5.9 for Linitchuk&Karponosov that gave them the gold over Regöczy&Sallay. Somebody spotted Dr. Francis ambling arm in arm with Elena Tchaikovskaya, both in their fur coats...
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2012
  7. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    I admit I know nothing about the '64 Olympics. IYO, would fair judging have put Scott Allen in 2nd? Or maybe he was far behind after figures ...
     
  8. pollyanna

    pollyanna playing the Glad Game

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    Okay, I'll ask. Which was your first "most wuz robbed?"

    I was six years old, so I don't remember these Olympics at all. First Olympics I remember is 1968 - Peggy Fleming and 14 year old Janet Lynn.
     
  9. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Debbie Wilkes mentions in her autobiography she was so happy to the Protopopovs won not only since she loved them but it denied Marika Kilius who she despised with a passion of the Olympic Gold medal. She implied she was one of the nastiest women she had ever encountered. I have read several times the Germans and Austrians though blamed Suzanne Francis and her scores for the narrow defeat of Kilius & Baumler and were on the witchhunt for her, even going to Worlds. She even had to wear a disguise to get into the arena at Worlds later that year according to Beverly Smith.
     
  10. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    :confused:

    Calmat finished fifth in the Free Skate.

    http://www.sports-reference.com/olympics/winter/1964/FSK/mens-singles-free-skating.html

    ETA: And it had been only twelve years, not sixteen, since Dick Button landed the first triple jump in competition. http://www.jacksonskates.com/html/jumphist.html
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2012
  11. skatesindreams

    skatesindreams Well-Known Member

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    What a split in the scoring!
     
  12. DORISPULASKI

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

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    I was not that old either...16. I just remember the outrage :lol:

    I thought Calmat should have been like 10th in the FS. He was 3rd in the figures & Allen was 4th. In 1964, it was cumulative points that counted.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figure_skating_at_the_1964_Winter_Olympics#Men_Singles

    Allen was 4th in the free skate, Calmat 5th.


    The time when Tim Wood lost because a judge got his right hand and left hand confused and put up his score backwards. The judge tried to put it right, but it couldn't be done. Wood was still 2nd.
     
  13. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Which judge was it that put Woods's score in wrong. The British or Canadian. What score did he/she mean to put instead on which mark.

    I have seen footage of the 1968 Olympics and for me Schwarz is a really weak skater to win the Olympics even for 60s standards. Danzer and Wood were both so much better. I know figures were a factor in the result, but I dont understand how his free skate could be compared favorably to either. His posture was worse than Timothy Goebel, he was stiff as a board, he had no musicality, and other than a triple toe he didnt do anything harder than a double lutz which he looked super excited to land, even though it is a jump Trixi Schuba could even do easily and with more power than him. He did a bunch of single axels. I can see how he never won a World title.
     
  14. DORISPULASKI

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

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    I don't recall exactly, but the judge meant to put up something like 5.0 but put up 0.5--that is, a reversal where the error was obvious, and the discrepancy from the other judges was glaring. In a cumulative point scoring system, where nothing was dropped, and both total points and total ordinals counted, it made the difference. I'm not even sure what part of which event it was. (Tech or artistic, FP or figures) But it was 1968 Olympics.
    http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?10025-Interesting-article-about-Tim-Wood

    The freep article is no longer on line.

    It's such a long time ago.

    Re Schwartz: and worse, with him winning, it wasn't great for the sport when Schwartz turned out to be such a scumbag, and garnered headlines like:

    "Skating gold medalist gets 8 years for kidnap plot"

    http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/news/story?id=2542104

    and
    Also, Danzer was better than Schwarz, for that matter.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2012
  15. Mafke

    Mafke New Member

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    I was just looking here

    http://www.winter-olympic-memories.com/html/results/jp_3d/10_grenoble/10_figure/10_figure_m_ex.htm

    and can't see it. The Brit judge had him tied for 5/6 place in the free but their placements were weird all the way around.

    I keep hearing about this but can never pin down the exact details, which is muy frustrating.
     
  16. DORISPULASKI

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

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    The details were in the freep article, but unfortunately, it is no longer on line. It's not all that obvious in the scores as they exist, because only one of the two marks the judge gave was affected (tech or artistic).
     
  17. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    To continue the thread drift from 1964 to 1968....

    I recall hearing a different version of the story DORISPULASKI related, namely that the judge held up the wrong card and inadvertently marked Wood a full point lower than he intended. Clearly that version, and the version Doris remembers, cannot be correct.

    Sports Reference describes the scoring format thus:

    (I think that should be "... 4) Total Points, 5) Compulsory Figure Points.")

    http://www.sports-reference.com/olympics/winter/1968/FSK/mens-singles.html

    The scoring format for the Compulsories was: "Five Compulsory Figures. Final Compulsory Figure points computed by multiplying score for Figure #1 by four, Figures #2 and #3 by five, and Figures #4 and #5 by six."

    http://www.sports-reference.com/olympics/winter/1968/FSK/mens-singles-compulsory-figures.html

    For the Free Skate, it was: "Free Skating points computed by multiplying Free Skating score by 8.6 (rounded to one decimal place)."

    http://www.sports-reference.com/olympics/winter/1968/FSK/mens-singles-free-skating.html

    The Final Standings for the Top Four (on the first webpage linked above), were:

    1 Wolfgang Schwarz 20 Austria AUT Gold 5×1+ 5.0 13.0 1,904.1
    2 Tim Wood 19 United States USA Silver 6×2+ 8.0 17.0 1,891.6
    3 Patrick Pera 19 France FRA Bronze 5×3+ 15.0 31.0 1,864.5
    4 Emmerich Danzer 23 Austria AUT 9×4+ 29.0 29.0 1,873.0

    To win the OGM, Wood would have had to have had one of the judges who actually ranked Schwarz first overall rank Wood first (6X1) and Schwarz second (6x2+).

    The "culprit" could not have been the French, Italian, Japanese, or American judge. Those judges did rank Wood first and Schwarz second. It's also implausible that it would have been the Czechoslovakian judge, who gave Wood two 5.9's and had him tied for first with Petkevich in the Free Skate. I think we can also safely rule out the Austrian judge (same country as Schwarz). The West German judge seems unlikely too, since the only way she could have given Wood a higher score (short of giving out a 6.0) would have been to award him a tech mark of 5.9, which would have tied him with the Schwarz in the FS but still left him second overall.

    So that does, indeed, leave us with the Canadian and British judges.

    The British judge had Wood 0.8 points behind Schwartz, and the Canadian judge had him 0.7 Total Points behind. If I understand the scoring system correctly, and assuming that there was rounding up, a 0.1-point higher score on either of the two marks from either judge would have given Wood an additional 0.9 points, narrowly enough to edge out Schwarz, and a 0.2-point higher score clearly would have been enough.

    Based on that, I think that one of those two judges may have said that he intended to given Wood an additional tenth of a point on the tech or artistic mark and inadvertently held up the wrong card.

    Yet, if that is the case (and I may have misunderstood the scoring system), it appears that Wood still would be behind Schwarz on Total Points and possibly Total Ordinals, so even if the ostensible scoring mistake had never happened and Woods had won the Gold medal, there would still be room for questioning the result.

    :judge: :COP: :blah: :barrel
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2012
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  18. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the explanation. I found Schwarz looked like such a weak skater compared to Wood and Danzer though. I couldnt believe how many single axels he did in his routine, could he even do a double axel, or was he just nervous and popping out. If he didnt do a triple toe his jumping in his winning Olympic skate would be weaker than Trixi Schuba. His posture was so bad as well, and I didnt find him artistic at all, nor very athletic. The other two were quite enjoyable, Danzer looked like he had flair, personality, and an ease of movement, and good jumps. Woods looked very polished, had strong jumps, and good spins.
     
  19. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    Wood got a 5.7 from the aut judge for tech, but 5.8 or 5.9 from everyone else except for the British judge who gave him a 5.6. Had that judge intended a 5.9 but simply held the 9 upside down, a 5.9 wouldn't have been as out of line as the 5.6 given. Still, it's hard to believe that an elite sport didn't have something like this sorted out, like an underscore to the numbers.
     
  20. Maofan7

    Maofan7 Member

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    Additional Videos

    Scott Allen (Colour Footage)

    Scott Allen

    Alain Calmat

    Manfred Schnelldorfer

    This video, starting at 8 mins 45 secs in, features both Marika Kilius & Hans-Jürgen Bäumler and the Protopopovs, plus the medal ceremony.

    Unsure about who is featured in these final 2 videos:-

    Possibly: Vivian Joseph & Ronald Joseph? (looks like them from this photograph)

    Don't Know - Possibly Sally-Anne Stapleford?

    The Josephs finished 4th in the Pairs, and Stapleford finished 11th in the Ladies.

    Worlds 1964

    This video features Marika Kilius & Hans-Jürgen Bäumler gaining their revenge on the Protopopovs by beating them at 1964 Worlds

    Peggy Fleming

    Peggy Fleming finished 6th at the 1964 Olympics. No video is available in relation to her performance, but there are these two videos from US Nationals, which she won:-

    Peggy Fleming - Free Program - U.S. Nationals (complete - no commentary)

    Peggy Fleming - Free Program - U.S. Nationals - clip with commentary

    Laurence Owen

    On the question of how well Laurence Owen may have done at the 1964 Olympics had she lived, it is also worth noting that Regine Heitzer won the silver medal and Nicole Hassler finished 4th at the 64 Olympics. At the 1960 Olympics, Owen finished 6th, beating both Heitzer (7th) and Hassler (11th) in the process.

    Here is some footage of the Vinson-Owen family in the second half of this video, which also features Laurence (the footage was filmed during practice at the 1960 Olympics). The first half of the video features the pairs competition from the 1960 Olympics.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2012
  21. skatesindreams

    skatesindreams Well-Known Member

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  22. Judge Dred

    Judge Dred New Member

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    Unbelievable that Calmat came second with all those falls
     
  23. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    :wall: He came in fifth in the Free Skate.
     
  24. Judge Dred

    Judge Dred New Member

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    Agreed. About 10th for a FS like that
     
  25. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    So, tell us, Judge Dred, who were the nine or so men you would have put ahead of Calmat and what, specifically, did they do so much better than he?

    :watch:

    For the record, of the nine judges, one had him thirteenth in the Free Skate, one had him tied for seventh, and the others had him fifth or higher. So it's not completely absurd to rank him tenth if you've actually watched the skates, but it is if you don't know how the others skated.
     
  26. Judge Dred

    Judge Dred New Member

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    So, tell us, Vagabond, what, specifically, did Calmat do so much better than those he beat in the FS whilst he was not landing on his rear end from multiple falls and being booed by the crowd for silly scores?

    :watch:

    The same question can be asked of both of us. What I do know is that when somebody falls 3 times, skates what Doris describes as a disjointed FS due to the falls, and gets booed, 5th was :lol:
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2012
  27. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    For all you and I know, everyone ranked below Calmat had even more disjointed programs and fell three or more times or, at any rate, didn't land as many jumps as he did.

    Given that Calmat won his World Championship the following year without even attempting any triple jumps (while getting technical marks that were, with one exception, all 5.8's and 5.9's), it seems unlikely that the there were a whole bunch of skaters with significantly better technical content finishing behind him in the Free Skate.

    As for the audience reaction, back in those days it often had something to do with the fact that the audience hadn't watched the Compulsories and was reacting emotionally to the overall placement, not the specific result in the Free Skate.

    Not so very different from certain posters on FSU, if you ask me. :shuffle:
     
  28. Judge Dred

    Judge Dred New Member

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    Well, look who is getting emotional now........:rofl:

    We will just have to agree to disagree.

    You saw the event at the time, Doris, why do you think 10th or thereabouts?
     
  29. sbanet

    sbanet Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps the ISU should just add a little *asterisk that designates "complete splat-fest" to certain comps in their historical records.... :cold:
     
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  30. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    Maofan7 just posted a link to a video of Wood's Free Skate that shows the marks being posted. The Artistic Impression marks made me go :eek: because when they first flash on the screen, the mark from the French judge starts out as 5.0, but it then rises to 5.8. :eek: :eek: :eek:

    I've never seen anything like that before, and I wonder if this might be the source of the stories about a judge making a mistake with the marks.

    By the way, I checked on Wikipedia, and that French judge was not a young Marie-Reine Le Gougne. :p

    And, for anyone who's interested, here some other Men's Free Skates from the 1968 Olympics:

    Wolfgang Schwarz
    Emmerich Danzer
    John Misha Petkevich :swoon: :wall: :shuffle:
    Sergei Chetverukhin
    Jan Hoffmann, aged 12

    ETA: And a link to a longer video of the Free Skate: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPMngw7uVEA

    Petkevich probably could have jumped over Hoffmann's head! :p
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2012