Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by calica, Apr 11, 2014.
Where did you get the idea the ISU is broke?
Like others, I would have signed until I read the statements about Sotnikova. This particular petition is a reflection of the authors personal opinions with which I disagree. And, no, just because one might be anti-war, doesn't mean all anti-war petitions are equal or valid.
For me to sign a petition, it has to be based on facts, principles, and professionalism. This petition is poorly written, based on personal likes and dislikes of the writer. When it results in hateful comments about a skater rather than Mr cinquanta (and even he needs to be booted out on principles and actions rather than hateful feelings), it is a misguided petition. I will not sign it.
From the public statements issued by ISU. Where else would I get it from? Just the recent release about $peedy's urgently needed drastic changes in both sports alone was peppered with cost saving ideas.
I won't sign it either.
I won't sign it not only because of the veiled attacks on Sotnikova, but also because it blames $peedy for a whole lot of things that aren't directly his doing. And I say that as no fan of $peedy. It's not his fault that the popularity of figure skating has declined. It is, however, his fault that the ISU is not responding to that by getting better/different deals with broadcasters to reflect that reality. Or responding to it by looking into other ways to make skating content available.
Also, it seems silly to ask for his resignation now because of things he did in 2002 (the new judging system). It would make more sense to point out some of the problems with how the system is being administered *now* - e.g. the wide variations in some of the marks for the same element for the same skater at the same competition - and ask for his resignation because the ISU hasn't done anything substantive to address these long-standing problems.
And like others, I won't put my name on anything that self-appointed "journalist" Monica Friedlander is involved with. Not after her shamefully unprofessional behaviour around the last petition she was involved with.
It looks as though the bit about Sotnikova and the ladies "controversy" has been removed from the petition.
I want Cinquanta replaced, but I'm still not signing it. Almost all of the comments say "justice for Yuna Kim," which has nothing to do with Cinquanta.
It seems like removing the objectionable part would make me more likely to sign it- but now I am less likely to sign it.
If it can be edited after our signatures are affixed, who knows what the author may ADD later.
Probably the parts the author removed for now!
I have already seen what the writer wrote. Removing it will not make me sign it.
I totally agree.
If we are talking about IJS, you cannot just point the finger at one person because there have been a number of officials within the ISU who were instrumental with setting it up and felt it was in the best interests in the sport. A new system would have happened anyway because 6.0 was a dinosaur that had had it's day. Also with the development of software and technology, the sport needed something that was going to bring it into the 21st century. That is why the point alone is just wrong. And just because an individual whose knowledge of the sport is questionable doesn't like it, doesn't validate the failure of the system. That is to say, their accusations of the failure of the system are not a fact but rather a perspective.
As others have said, IJS hasn't stopped the interest in sport in countries outside of North America.
Seriously. You don't edit the text of a petition *after* people have signed it. That's misleading and unethical.
The backhanded attack on Adelina Sotnikova was dishonest and reprehensible in this so-called 'petition' supposedly against Cinquanta. Shame on anyone that buys into this rubbish.
Neither will I for the same reason.
The goal of the petition seems to damage Cinquanta as well as take cheap shots at Sotnikova, a skater who did nothing wrong. I refuse to sign this one but if a petition is made up specifically for the resignation of Cinquanta and not to personally insult Sotnikova nor any other skater then I will sign it.
ITA. Imo most who sign such a petition have an agenda against Sotnikova as well.
My thoughts exactly. Some probably signed due to the reference to Adelina, now removed. It can just as easily be inserted again. Not to mention that the reference to the Sochi results is still there.
This discussion has been very confusing to read because the first thing I did was read the petition, sign it, and then proceed to read the rest of the comments that have been made since. I kept re-reading the petition looking for the names of skaters but couldn't find any so I'm glad someone mentioned that it had been edited at some point. The comments about Sotnikova, which I haven't seen, sound terrible but I think the controversy surrounding the results is real and the ISU has done their usual thing and just ignored it so I think that it is fair to mention that in this petition.
But it would have been better just to say 'questionable judging in Sochi' rather than single out Sotnikova. It makes the petition seem an attack on her, when she bears no responsibility for how she was scored.
Questionable judging did not take place in Sochi alone. It existed even before Cinquanta took over. The petition needs to be more direct about how he has hurt the sport. Figure skating judging is always going to have some subjectivity, and just because the writer of the petition did not like the results of a certain competition, Cinquanta should not have to resign. I will be happy to see him go but not over the judging in one discipline in Sochi. In addition, it's not like Sotnikova fell all over the place; in many peoples' opinion she deserved that gold (I would have placed her second, but I can live with her winning; she skated very well).
What about questionable judging at worlds 2013 and 2012? (I am talking about Chan winning the worlds) And questionable judging at Skate Canada a few years ago? (Chan winning with so many falls.) Or is it a problem only when the skater the author of the petition likes does not win? Does the author of the petition objects to all questionable judging or just to some questionable judging?
The authors had a petition about last year's men's result. It went nowhere.
I'd like to start a petition requesting that Monica Friedlander stop making poitnless figure skating petitions that go nowhere especially when she tries to promote them as if she's got nothing to do with them.
By the way, Sotnikova is not named in the petition but the mention of the Sochi Ladies event is petty, as many of us applauded the results of that event. Still, Il Duce must GOOOO!!!! PARTIRE! PARTIRE!
She was. The petition was edited.
You'd have to ask them. They probably find the Sochi example to be the most glaring - and it is also the most recent.
For anyone who needs a reminder, here is Ms. Friedlander's (anonymous) post on FSU promoting the Denis Ten position:
Followed by her hissy fit when she was called out on her conflict of interest:
And here is one of the "news" articles she wrote about the Denis Ten petition, again omitting any mention that she was the one who started the petition:
Her lack of understanding of journalistic objectivity is just one reason why this petition is not worth signing. FWIW, I would not be surprised that, after the Denis Ten petition, if the current petition ever gets to the ISU, her name on it alone might ensure that it goes straight to the circular file. Especially if the ISU knows that the text of the petition was changed *after* people had signed it.
Her contributions were very entertaining to us all.
You are so right about her hack journalism. Why would anyone take her seriously.
Because she is giving us (false) hope that Speedy may 'be stepped down'. I am willing to believe that Father Christmas exist, if there is any chance that he will manage to demote Speedy.
Dick Button has signed it. Open the original link to the petition and scroll down.
Also the petition is getting press coverage not by Friedlander.
The petition is now being circulated amongst international coaches.
Good! I think that's fantastic. I applaud Monica for taking a stand and DOING something constructive about what she passionately believes in. Thousands of signatures, including Mr. Dick Button himself. Good on her! I'm glad to see this issue staying in the forefront where it belongs.
I agree with applauding Monica for taking a stand and DOING something constructive about what she passionately believes in; however, it still doesn't change the fact that she is trying to achieve it through dishonest means. Changing the content of the petition AFTER people have signed it is dishonest.
I don't know. To me it's one of those situations where people complain all winter its too cold and then when the seasons change and the summer comes, the weather's too hot. In reading through about a dozen people's opinions here, there seems to be a stance that if the petition has anything to do with Yuna or Carolina winning in Sochi.... or anything to do with Sochi for that matter, I am not supporting it. And you know what, that's certainly everyone's pregorative. We live in a "democracy". I personally feel that the end result is doing something constructive to help the cause of ousting Cinquanta, then I am DEFINITELY getting on that train. I just don't think trashing the person who's honestly just clearly trying to do something constructive has any rhyme or reason to it. If the petitions (yes, plural) shake the tree until an ISU president falls out and the status quo of skating changes, then quite frankly, why sweat the small stuff?
Well, maybe the honest way would be to write a petition that doesn't take cheap shot at ANY SKATER and then just post it and DON'T CHANGE IT! That's pretty simple thing to do, and it would be the honest way. Is she going to contact all those people who signed it before she changed it, and ask them whether they are happy with the changes or whether they want to withdraw their signature?
I don't think the petition addresses enough. I think most of the judges need to go, as well. Figure Skating needs to clean house. It is destroying itself. I agree, specific skaters should not have been mentioned. However, the petition is a start.
It is a start but it doesn't change the fact that some signatures have been obtained dishonestly, because what the people signed is not what is there. So arguing that judging is corrupt and at the same time obtaining signatures through deceiving people, that's like criticizing something while doing something similar. Would you be happy if you gave someone a signed cheque and after you signed it, someone altering it without asking you?
It's not the same situation as winter/summer seasonal changes. This is a deliberate attempt to satisfy a certain group of people that did not like the FS competition results in Sochi, and then to satisfy those who objected to use Sochi as an example.
Changing content of a petititon after getting some signature is deception, pure and simple.
The cheap shots at skaters are not commendable either. Just because someone takes an action does not make these things justifiable.
Cinquanta needs to go but not because of Sochi results. He had done plenty of damage long before Sochi, and the results in Sochi were no different from any country getting a home field advantage.
Not sure how it is dishonest.
It's dishonest because people signed to support what was expressed in the text of the petition. If the text of the petition is changed, the people who have already signed might not agree with the changes, and not want to support the new version of the petition. But their names are still on it.
It's even more dishonest to change the text of the petition without notifying the signers whose names are already on it, which appears to be what happened here.
If the people who started the petition got negative feedback about the petition's text, the honest and ethical way to deal with it is to cancel the original petition, put up a new petition with the revised text, and send out a notification asking people to sign the new version.
Come on! Seriously?
Information Update: Cinquantas Radical Proposals: Why No Public Statement From U.S. Figure Skating?
Thanks to information provided to Mr. Ron Pfenning we have indirectly learned of preparations in the works for what will likely take place at the June ISU Conference.
What is important is the outline of possible proposed topics to be discussed in a pre-planning meeting several weeks ahead of the actual Congress. The pre-planning session is part of the normal procedures called for under ISU Governance Rules. The possible topics seem to be addressing the floundering state of the ISU, how members make and vote on decisions affecting the sports the body governs. This information provides much more information on preparations for the upcoming Congress than U.S. Figure Skating would have provided, which is likely none. Read and comment here or on social media. Thanks again Mr. Pfenning for sharing.
I was just forwarded the following letter from a skating friend in Europe. Very interesting and I thought you might like to know what is going on. Ron Pfenning
10 April 2014
Dear Fellow ISU Member:
Per ISU Communication 1854, and along with ISU Member colleagues Tatsuro Matsumura of Japan and Sergey Sviridov of Russia, we are pleased to provide you with the following information regarding the Forum to be held on the first day (Monday, June 9, 2014) of the 55th ISU Congress in Dublin, Ireland.
We are helping to organize the presentations and content of the Forum, and we are sending this email to request, if you so choose, your assistance and participation. We also are organizing a pre-Forum meeting on May 16 that all ISU Members are invited to attend.
Per ISU Constitution Article 29, Paragraph 6, Forum on topics The Forum at the Congress with no elections shall present topics of interest concerning the ISU sports, including ISU strategy and possible Rule changes for the next Congress. The Forum on topics proposed and prepared by the Members, the Council and other ISU Office Holders shall be held at the Congress every 4th year. The final program for each Forum shall be published with the Congress Agenda and shall not be subject to modification as an Urgent Matter or at the Congress of the current Forum. The Forum has no right to adopt binding decisions. Its role is to advise and assist the Council in performing its tasks as the highest body between the Congresses.
We recently met with Council member Mrs. Marie Lundmark, who along with Council member Mr. Roland Maillard, will be moderators for the Forum. Per ISU Communication 1854, the Council has agreed upon the following topics for the Forum:
1. The on-going activities of the ISU Sport disciplines
- develop and improve the participation of the ISU Members and their Skaters, Officials etc. in the ISU activities;
- improve the interest for the ISU Sports and their attractiveness for spectators, sponsors and media.
2. ISU Elections 2016/2018
Discussion of possible steps to find the right persons (candidates) for the right tasks (positions) within the ISU Bodies
- develop a strategy and procedure;
- logistical way of presentation;
- learning by doing.
The three of us have been selected by the Council to present generally the opinions (both Figure and Speed) for Asia/Oceania, Europe and the Americas. We fully recognize the need for assistance in providing different viewpoints and opinions. Therefore, we are asking for input from each ISU Member to help us present additional viewpoints and opinions, and ask that you send to my attention (email@example.com), no later than April 30, your views and suggestions on topics or themes that you believe should be discussed, or that you would like to also speak about at the Forum. Of course, there will be open discussion during the Forum, but your early input will help us ensure your topics or views are expressed. We will compile all input received by April 30 into our pre-planning for the Forum.
On Friday, May 16, we are organizing a pre-Forum planning meeting from 10:30am 4:30pm at the Hilton Rome Airport hotel at the Leonardo da Vinci International Airport (hotel is connected to the airport.) The purpose of this meeting is to finalize the general topics for presentation and discussion at the Forum. All ISU Members are invited and welcome to attend. In-person participation at this meeting is voluntary and would be at the expense of the individual or Member (a special room rate will be available; hotel contact information will be sent next week; video conferencing and a call-in audio connection are also being investigated.)
For those who would like to attend this meeting, either in person or remotely via video or audio, we would appreciate your confirmation in advance to help us with planning. Please send your confirmation or any questions you may have to firstname.lastname@example.org.
We thank you in advance for your support to help make the Forum a success at the Congress, and we look forward to a productive and constructive pre-planning meeting on May 16.
With Best Regards,
David Raith (USA),
in coordination with Tatsuro Matsumura (JPN) and Sergey Sviridov (RUS)
Really? Do you need to respond that way? I read the petition today. Has it changed? If it has, I am unaware of it. If it does change, I would hope that they would remove the signatures and start afresh. But, I am not aware of any decision to change anything. if i have missed something, please show me. And please be respectful. I am being genuine with you. FTR, I have not read this entire thread.
The petition has changed since it was originally published. It originally called out Adelina Sotnikov's results specifically as an example of corrupt judging. There was a personal attack on her skating "Junior level artistry" and something negative about her jumps (I don't recall the phrasing). It then said something about Kostner and Kim skating flawlessly. This has since been removed. Other things may have been removed, but I did not save the original text.
If you read the comments from the beginning, many people mention her in their comments, which would lead you to believe her inclusion was part of the reason they signed (and the reason I did not sign).
No matter how small of a change, it is dishonest to change a petition after people have signed. If I signed now, I cannot trust that the author would not edit it and this time add something rather than remove something. Who knows what my name would be affixed to?
Thank you Skittl1321, I appreciate the explanation. I never saw the original. The way it reads now is more vague. I did sign it. Possibly prematurely. Had I realized that changes were made, i might not have. I did not, however, contribute money to the cause.
Separate names with a comma.