Repeating jumps question

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by johndockley92, Oct 28, 2012.

  1. johndockley92

    johndockley92 New Member

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    I know you can only repeat two triples in a program, how does this work for quads?

    Can you repeat a quad and repeat two triples? Or is the rule about repeating triples and up?
  2. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Yes because quads are not considered the same as triples in the current rules.

    ETA: That's why Javier Fernandez could do 4S, a 3F half loop 3S combo, and a solo 3S in his Skate Canada FS last night.
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2012
  3. skatak

    skatak Well-Known Member

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    he also could have done :
    4T-1/2 Lp-3S
    4S-3T
    4T
    4S
    3S-3T
    ;-)
  4. A.H.Black

    A.H.Black Well-Known Member

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    With quads as with triples - one of the two must be done in combination, right?

    I had this discussion with a friend last year at Nationals and she didn't believe me.
  5. steve skater

    steve skater Member

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    This would not be allowed. Of all the triples and quads, only two can be repeated. In your example, the skater would get a star (*; invalid element) for the 3S-3T, as the 3T would be the third quad/triple repeated jump. (I wish this rule were not in place!) As Sylvia mentioned, quads and triples with the same name are not considered the same jump.
    So a skater could do, say:
    4S
    4S-3T
    4T
    4T-2T
    3S
    3A
    3Lz
    3Lo-2T-2Lo

    The 4S and 4T are repeated, so no other triple or quads can be repeated, but the skater can still do 3S (as it is a different animal than the 4S). If the 4S-3T had been 4S-2T, then a 3T could be performed in place of another triple with no penalty.
  6. johndockley92

    johndockley92 New Member

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    ^^ Does this not contradict what Sylvia just said? Now I'm confused.
  7. misskarne

    misskarne Spirit. Focus. Ability. Tenacity. Aussie Grit.

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    Bonus question: is there a limit to how many quad jumps a skater can do in a long program? Let's say Artur was fully fit and firing on all cylinders and prepared to unload his entire arsenal. Would he be allowed to do a layout like:

    4T-3T
    4T
    4Lo
    4Lz
    4S
    (and then just add a couple of 3As and a 3Lz?)
  8. johndockley92

    johndockley92 New Member

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    There is no limit to number of quads performed so long as they are different. Technically speaking, if able to perform, a skater such as Mroz could do 2 4Ts 2 4S, 4f, 4Lo, 4Lz, and 3A :p

    Be one hell of a hard program though lol quads way deep in the program
  9. LilJen

    LilJen Well-Known Member

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    In skatak's example, the skater repeated 4T and 3T. That's it for jumps you can repeat (only two may be repeated). So if he did two 3S, the second 3sal would be invalid. He'd have to do another type of jump instead. Make sense? (Otherwise you'd get even further off the ideal of attempting all jump takeoffs; a skater could do, in 8 jumping passes, two 3Ts, two 4Ts, two lutzes, two flips, etc.)
  10. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    Another way to think of it:

    You're allowed to repeat a maximum of two different jumps that have 3 or more revolutions.

    Triple and quad jumps from the same takeoff are considered different jumps.

    You're still limited to two repeats. And whichever jump you repeat can only be performed two times (instead of one). It is never allowed to do the same triple or quad jump more than twice.
  11. ltnskater

    ltnskater Active Member

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    No, to add on to the above post... In other words, a triple jump and a quad jump of the same type are NOT the same jump so in the same program, you can do a 4T, 4T+3Lo, and 3T (for example). Here, the 3T counts even though it is the 3rd toeloop jump in the program, but it is different from the quad because it is a triple.

    The repeated jumps is another issue... as mentioned above, you can only repeat a maximum of 2 jumps triple OR quad. So if someone did two 4Ts and two 4Ss, that's it, you can not repeat any more triple or quad jumps.
  12. burntBREAD

    burntBREAD Active Member

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    I have a different question regarding repeating jumps. I know of the two triples repeated, one should be in combination and the other should be solo. However, I see a lot of skaters miss an earlier combination and tack on another -2T to a planned solo jump (i.e. a 3S) and still do a planned 3S-2T later. How come one of them doesn't garner the +SEQ? I know that if they did two solo 3S, the second one would be penalized.
  13. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    There's no penalty for or rule against doing the repeated jump in combination both times.

    This is not correct. The requirement is that a repeated jump must be in combination or sequence at least one of the times it's executed.
  14. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Summary for singles FS:

    • Only two three-or-more revolution jumps may be repeated
    • For each repeated three-or-more revolution jump, at least one must be in combination/sequence; if both are performed solo, the second is treated as a +SEQ and the base value is reduced by to 80%
    • Triple and quad versions of the same jump type are not considered the same jump for counting repeats

    Independent from the Zayak rule, currently the number of times a 2A can be repeated is two, but both can be solo jumps. So it is possible to have two repeated triple/quads and two 2A's.
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2012
    gkelly and (deleted member) like this.
  15. RFOS

    RFOS Well-Known Member

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    Good summary, but just to clarify the second instance of a particular 3-or-more-revolution jump has its value multiplied by 0.8 (or 80%), not reduced by 80% (which would be equivalent to multiplying by 20%). This multiplier is applied to the base value (which you may know but some may not), and GOE is applied as usual.
  16. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Thanks! I've made the corrections.

    ETA: Also, the base as reported in the protocols, includes the 10% bonus, if applicable.
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2012
  17. skatak

    skatak Well-Known Member

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    that looked too easy, should've remembered the 'no more than two similar triple+ jumps repeated'. In my example the 3S of the last combo would be already invalid.
  18. maatTheViking

    maatTheViking Well-Known Member

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    Can you do your repeated jumps as 2 different combinations?

    say a
    4T + 3T
    4T + 3T + 2S

    2 identical combinations?
    4T + 3T
    4T + 3T

    and

    can you repeat 2 and lower revolution jumps as many times as you would like?

    say
    4T + 2T
    4T + 2T
    3T + 2T
    3S + 2T

    etc etc?

    this looks wrong to me...
  19. burntBREAD

    burntBREAD Active Member

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    Well, you can only have 3 combos but you can repeat 2T and 2Lo as much as you like.
  20. carriecmu0503

    carriecmu0503 Member

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    This is NOT okay, as you can only do a total of THREE combinations/sequences, and only ONE of them may be a 3jump combo. Double jumps through the Lutz have no limit, however, you can only do a maximum of 2 double Axels.
  21. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    In theory what you're asking here would be legal, but 4T+3T+2S isn't a good example because it isn't a possible combination unless the skater deliberately landed the 3T on the opposite foot, which has never been done. But change the 2S to 2T, and it would be perfectly legal -- and use up both the repeated jumps on toe loops, quad and triple.

    Legal. Not advisable but there's no official way to penalize the repetitiveness; judges could ding the Choreography component if it bothered them enough.
    I do seem to remember seeing 3A+2T twice in the same program, sometime back in the 90s, maybe because the skater intended to do 3A+3T but couldn't pull it off either time.

    You're only allowed to do a total of three combinations in the same free program -- one can have three jumps, otherwise the max is two jumps per combination.

    So a skater could intentionally do, say,
    4T + 2T
    3T + 2T
    solo 4T
    solo 3T
    3S + 2T +2T

    My guess is that several judges would be bothered enough by the overreliance on toe loops to penalize that in components.

    Then if they unintentionally popped all the 3T and 4T into doubles, they could end up with as many as 8 double toes.
  22. Spazactaz

    Spazactaz New Member

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    1. 2T+2T+2T
    2. 2T+2T
    3. 2T+2T
    4. 2T
    5. 2T
    6. 2T
    7. 2T
    8. 2A

    afaik, you could do that if you really wanted.. so you could technically have 11 double toes :p
  23. maatTheViking

    maatTheViking Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, I forgot about the number of combos restriction.

    11 2Ts :rofl:
  24. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

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    Wow, so you were at the British ladies LP in 2010 too? I jest but there was one skater that only did double flip (and the odd double loop) the whole programme.
  25. johndockley92

    johndockley92 New Member

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    O_O I'd love to see the day that someone did a quad + triple combo with a 3L on the end, even a double loop really. The control you'd need would be ridiculous. Perhaps once someone has quad loop down, a quad loop + triple loop combo would be possible.
  26. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    I think it was Elvis Stojko in 1995 or something like that.
    I remember that I was wondering if this was legal to repeat the exact same combinaison.
  27. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    And Lenka Kulovana at 1997 Euros (IIRC) and her 3 or 4 double Salchows ! lol
  28. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

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    I feel like i've definitely seen practice footage of a skater landing 4T+3Lp, I also feel like it may have been Oda but i can't recall. I've had a look a youtube but can't find anything.
  29. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    IIRC, 4T+3T+3L has already been done in pratice by Plushenko (?)
    Never heard about 4T+3L.
    But we have not so much 3A+3L, which is an impressive combo I'd love to see again :)
  30. chantilly

    chantilly Active Member

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    So when Oda repeated the 3axel in SC in the FD without a combo was it then null and void as a point getter?
  31. RFOS

    RFOS Well-Known Member

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    No, it was given the "+SEQ" designation and its base value was reduced to 80% of the original base value for a 3axel (from 8.5 to 6.8) as kwanfan1818 outlined in post #14. Since one of them was required to be in combination or sequence, this ensures that one of them takes up a combination/sequence spot. They lose both 20% of the base value on the 2nd jump and any points they would have gotten from a 2nd (and/or 3rd) jump if they had executed them, so it is a penalty but not nearly as severe as discounting the 2nd jump entirely. Even with GOEs of all -2s (except one -3 which would have been thrown out), Oda's second 3A still earned 4.80 points.

    http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpcan2012/gpcan2012_Men_FS_Scores.pdf
  32. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Oda only had two axel jumps in the FS at SC this year: the 3A, and the 3A that was intended to be a combination. He didn't even attempt a 2A.

    His second 3A was actually a solo jump, and it was called a "3A+SEQ," which means the base of the jump he actually did, (8.5) was reduced by 20% to 6.8, or 80% of the original base value. From there, GOE was deducted (in this case), after being calculated from the COE chart for 3A.

    ETA: Sorry, posting at the same time :)
  33. Spazactaz

    Spazactaz New Member

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    haha, i've done this myself. i'm the type who ALWAYS changes my programs around if things don't go perfectly..... and 3sal is my easiest jump so one comp i doubled it.... so i just kept going for the 3S over again and ended up with at least 4 2sals, hahahaaaaa
  34. misskarne

    misskarne Spirit. Focus. Ability. Tenacity. Aussie Grit.

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    Correction: 4T-3T-3Lo has already been landed IN COMPETITION by Plushenko, in 2002.

    I'd like to see the 3A-.5Lo-3F again. That was pretty awesome.

    Now another curious question: Plushenko has also tried four-jump (4T-3T-2T-2Lo I think) and five-jump combos (3T-2T-2T-2T-2Lo I think) in exhibitions. Would they be legal in competition (if one had the legs to pull it off?).
  35. Spazactaz

    Spazactaz New Member

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  36. sammyf

    sammyf Well-Known Member

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  37. mag

    mag Well-Known Member

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  38. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

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    I don't think it's "illegal" per se, isn't there something in the rules (actually it may be specific to sequences rather than combinations) that says only the three (or two) jumps with the highest tarriff will count towards the base value of the programme, or something along those lines.

    Now I think about it, I'm fairly sure it's only in relation to sequences rather than combinations.

    I would guess that the skater that had it as a combination would have attempted to land the double lutz on the "other" foot rather than the usual landing leg. IJS states that any of the jumps can be landed on either foot and count (hence why a half loop counts as a single loop in a combination, rather than the sequnce it was called prior to the rule change).
  39. johndockley92

    johndockley92 New Member

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    Sadly this is no longer allowed as it would be two "three jump" combinations :(

    @Previous posters, you can do as many jumps in combination, only the highest value ones count though.

    It is possible to do a Lutz flip combo by landing on the other foot; I believe Jason Thomas was at one point doing 3Lz + 3Lz combination !! No video of it though that I know of.
  40. steve skater

    steve skater Member

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    This only applies to sequences. If you do more than 3 jumps in a combination, the * (invalid element = no value) will be imposed. If one were to do a triple salchow and then step into a double axel-double toe loop combination (3S+2A+2T+SEQ), only the salchow and axel would count, as they are the highest scoring elements.