Rank the World Championship-winning Ladies LPs 1990 - 1999

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by olympic, Jun 30, 2010.

  1. Lainerb

    Lainerb New Member

    2,737
    237
    0
    1. Chen 1995-Toller Cranston choreography is to die for. This program was truly unique and orginal, I can't say we have seen anything quite like it before or since. Though extensive use of the arms can be seen as flailing, Chen and Cranston utilized arm movements along with full body movement to create an exotic and beautiful dance, there were transitions and footwork into most the jumps and the entire program is IMO an example of what good transitions should be. Her Rachmaninoff program a year later while beautiful and minimalistic was actually rather bare when compared to this.

    The rest of them I could care less about. Well, Maria's win was heart warming.
     
  2. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

    2,103
    135
    63
    LOL that's what I was thinking when I found this thread!

    Btw, I thought Sandra Bezic choreographed this routine... Either way, every program Lu Chen did was sublime in terms of artistry.
     
  3. giselle23

    giselle23 Active Member

    619
    161
    43
    I'll have to look at Chen's performance again, but the Eurosport guys seemed to think that Michelle had won the long program. There is little doubt that she was undermarked.

    ETA: OK, I watched Chen's performance. Her artistry was clearly superior (as was her footwork), but Kwan had 7 triples and Lulu only 5 (by my count). So under 6.0, Lulu deserved to win the LP. But Michelle should have been second. On reconsideration, Michelle should not be top 2 or 3, but there is a case for this order: Kwan 1996, Chen 1996, Chen 1995, Kwan 1997. Kwan 1995. Kristi probably belongs in there somewhere, but I haven't watched her programs recently.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2010
  4. Fallcolor

    Fallcolor New Member

    715
    18
    0
    my list would be something like:

    1) Kwan 1996- maintained power and speed required for this program, very exotic and mature for a 15 yr old lady. Did Lori nichol do the choreography? It was actually quite exquisite. Just wished she did the 3+3 like she did at '95 skate america though...

    2) Chen 1995- LOVED Bezic's work with Lulu. Mature and refined, brought out her musicality.
    3) Butyrskaya 1999- her hunger and drive to land every single triple was inspiring
    4) Lipinski 1997
    5) Yamaguchi 1991- loved this Samson+Delilah LP the most. Yama delivered 6 triples, amazing spins, had great character, despite singling the salchow...
    6) Sato 1994- not my favourite competitive skater, a bit bland to me, but her skate was nearly flawless, again, skating skills were the strongest of all the ladies.

    7) Kwan 1998- despite the obvious mistakes, i felt here, she skated more freely than she did in Nagano, with more power, speed, and ice coverage. Given the let down of the Olympics and not winning OG she probably felt she had nothing to lose.

    8)Yamaguchi 1992- i love Yama, and glad she landed the 3lz+3t, but for some reason didn't like her Malaguena as much as her previous LP. only glitch was a fall on the 3sal.

    9) Baiul- lack of combination jumps in her LP, triples were not as clean as it could have been, a glittery/princessy program. Sold it well though! (not much substance, though). SP was much better.

    bigggg gap***

    10) Trenary- jumps were just um...not good. Her doing a 2t+2t combo in the short should have left her out of the top 5 and therefore prevented a chance to win gold overall, IMO. She had VERY refined edges, however. Nice costume too.
     
  5. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

    8,226
    1,285
    113
    OMG, I just watched Trenary's program . . . and now I have clubbed in Santorini in the late 70s, watched the pensive portion of an early 80's after school special about teen pregnancy, and clubbed in Miami in the late 80s with a brief detour to an Acapulco All-inclusive.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2010
  6. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    13,704
    787
    113
    Yamaguchi's 91 and 92 winning LPs would easily beat Kwan in 1995. Her artistry was far superior to Kwan at that point in her career, as were her non jump elements, she had much more speed at that point, and with a triple lutz-triple toe combo she actually had more jump content in her 92 Worlds LP even with her fall on the triple salchow than Kwan. I am pretty sure Sato's 94 Worlds LP would beat Kwan from 95 too, and she actually might have beaten Chen too considering she had 6 triples, superior spins, superior footwork, and unmatched basic skating and speed, even though I much prefered Chen's 95 program artistically to Sato's of 94. And Maria of 1999 would also would easily beat Kwan of 95 as they had the same # of triples and again Maria's 99 Worlds LP would easily beat Kwan of 95 in artistry and all non jump elements. I would probably put Kwan's 95 Worlds LP between Irina and Tara's 97 LPs (behind Irina and over Tara) but that might be in part since I just dont like Tara's skating otherwise I might have put her ahead too. And really Kwan's artistry, maturity, power, and overall skating was so far superior in 98 than 95 it is hard to believe her own 98 performance wouldnt have easily beaten her 95 performance despite the 1 or 2 mistakes and her flawless skate and 7 triples of 95. Actually you could probably say the same about her 99 Worlds LP with just a couple small mistakes (despite that it placed a distant 2nd to an on fire Butyrskaya). And lastly I am not sure if it was even better than Bonaly or Chen from the 93 Worlds either.

    I agree Kwan probably deserved a medal at the 95 Worlds but IMO it was definitely not a top 5 Worlds LP of the whole decade either, probably not even top 10, I would guess top 15 once you take into account all the programs at Worlds in the 90s. Her program was nice all around with good choreography, good artistry for a young girl, decent spins and other elements, and 7 triples are very impressive. However she certainly didnt have top notch artistry, speed, power yet and there were better jumping performances too. And the only reason anyone would think anyone other than Chen should have won the 95 Worlds was the subconscious bias against her formed from judges underrating her for years already at that point. Plus everyone was just expecting Bobek to walk away with it that year after the short program, so were probably looking for some new exciting kid to take her place as the coronated winner instead rather than Mrs. 3rd place.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2010
  7. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

    12,546
    1,332
    113
    AM I the only one who thinks that Surya Bonaly LP in 1993 was her best at Worlds, and should have won 1993 Worlds and would have won 1994 Worlds ? :slinkaway
     
  8. shirley

    shirley New Member

    55
    4
    0
    Sure she could have won 1993 worlds. But Sato deserved the one in 1994.
     
  9. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

    12,546
    1,332
    113
    I meant that, IMO, Surya's LP at 1993 Worlds could have won 1994 Worlds over Sato. ;)
     
  10. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

    2,103
    135
    63
    You are definitely not alone on that one. Surya was clearly the winner at 93 worlds, not yucky Baiul. Putting Baiul on top during her two year career at a bunch of events was perhaps the worst thing the judges ever did considering Baiul's lack of technical content and her love of two-footing jumps.

    Not sure about 94 worlds though. Considering it was in Japan and Yuka skated the SP and LP of her life, don't think it was going to happen. Nevertheless, Surya should have won the 93 title.
     
  11. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

    7,134
    614
    113
    I'm amazed at how immediately the judges fell in love with Oksana Baiul beginning in '93.

    She had no real world or Olympic track record, and it wasn't as if she was so superior to all the other top ladies that merited her being placed at 'the top of the heap' in her first year. Perhaps her rise was fueled by a combination of her sad life story [orphan, sleeping at the rink, etc.], the judges obvious dislike for her top Euro rival Surya Bonaly, and Nancy Kerrigan's implosion. Then, by '94 the dye was cast.

    But it's also just weird that the judges were not considering other ladies besides Nancy and Surya, who had been around longer than Oksana, and who had better skating than her on a good day -Chen Lu, Yuka Sato, even Josee Chouinard. I also don't consider the Ukraine to have a really strong Fed to push her [then again, I forgot they had Viktor Petrenko]
     
  12. Jaana

    Jaana Well-Known Member

    3,884
    168
    63
    Just top three:

    1. Butirskaya 1999
    2. Chen 1995
    3. Kwan 1996 (in my opinion Chen should have won though)
     
  13. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

    12,546
    1,332
    113
    With the not very talented Elena Liashenko bronze medalist at 1995 Euros, Romanova and Yaroshenko bronze medalist at 1996 Euros.
    For sure, ukranian fed had some influence at that time !
     
  14. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

    7,134
    614
    113
    Yes. I began to backtrack on that statement in my initial post. It's also quite possible that in the early 90s there was some Soviet Fed. residual effect on the Ukraine, I suppose.
     
  15. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    13,704
    787
    113
    Yeah it was kind of strange. I think she had this charisma about her that just made everyone fall for her though. I also think the judges were fed up with Kerrigan's inconsistency in big events after the 93 Worlds and tired of waiting yet another year to see if she would get her act together to win a major title. Bonaly well like you said.

    As for the others Chen did everything around that time to merit reaching the top in the weak womens field other than being from China I think. The idea of a Chinese skater on top was just a foreign concept at the time and her federation didnt understand anything about politiking back then. Sato didnt even get her triple lutz and triple flip both until 1994, and she had been very inconsistent in most of her performances leading to the 94 Games and then bombed the short program there to end her hopes. Chouinard had been even more inconsistent than Kerrigan leading up to 94, so now at 24 and without a World medal and history of crash and burn performances she was mostly seen as more of an emerging journeywomen than a real contender.
     
  16. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    13,704
    787
    113
    I think the 93 Worlds should have gone to either Bonaly or Chen. Both far outskated Baiul in the LP portion. Maybe Surya since she had a better short program than Lu.

    The 94 Worlds definitely should have gone to Sato. It shoudnt have even been a 5-4 split IMO. Bonaly was actually overmarked here I feel after 2 mistakes and an overall flat performance. Yeah I agree if she had been the 93 World Champion she would have been "given" the 94 World title for the same performance but it wouldnt have been right.
     
  17. lilshorty

    lilshorty Member

    109
    5
    18
    Word. If I could replace Bonaly's 93 Worlds LP with Baiul's my list would be:

    1996 Michelle Kwan
    1993 Surya Bonaly
    1992 Kristi Yamaguchi
    1997 Tara Lipinski
    1991 Kristi Yamaguchi
    1988 Michelle Kwan
    1995 Lu Chen
    1999 Maria Butyrskya
    1994 Yuka Sato
    1990 Jill Trenary
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2010
  18. giselle23

    giselle23 Active Member

    619
    161
    43
    Here are mine, of the ones I have seen so far:

    1996--Kwan
    1992-Yamaguchi
    1995-Lu Chen
    1991-Yamaguchi
     
  19. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

    7,134
    614
    113
    In retrospect, I would drop Sato's '94 performance to 7th just ahead of Kwan '98. I hadn't seen that performance in some time and was going by memories of the moment. Some of her landings were choppy and she doubled a 3toe
     
  20. iarispiralllyof

    iarispiralllyof Active Member

    774
    70
    28
  21. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    13,704
    787
    113
    I would have except for Kwan 96, Chen 96, and Ito 90 (since we are bringing in other non gold performances). Still it was a stunning program and skate. If she had done the 2nd triple lutz I would have rated it over 1996 easily since I think her presentation had improved more since 96, and her overall skating, plus she did the triple-triple this time (though a bit shaky on the 2nd jump). However her flawless program under immense pressure in 96 has to outrank probably.
     
  22. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

    11,556
    1,399
    113
    Except for her Olympic short program skate, I don't think Baiul was even 5.8-worthy on the second mark, ever. She had the good fortune of being compared to Bonaly on the second mark though.

    Just like Lipinski had the good fortune of being compared to, well, Bonaly, back to back in Nagano, making her second mark shoot from 5.7 to 5.9 overnight.

    Back in 1993 and even in 1994, Sato didn't really have the big jumps and Chen came from a Federation with absolutely no backing. Kerrigan and Harding could be great but they were often hot and cold.

    I think the judges were just very concerned about crowning Bonaly as Olympic champion that they needed to make a star within a relatively short period of time and Baiul was probably the best candidate all things considered.
     
  23. Seerek

    Seerek Well-Known Member

    3,533
    179
    63
    I did a little follow up research from Jill's 3 selections, and they were, specifically:

    Sandstorm by La Bionda (1978)

    The Mermaid by Yanni (1987)

    Chicos y Chicas by Mavis Vegas Davis from the "Salsa" Soundtrack (1988)
     
  24. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

    12,546
    1,332
    113
    Off topic, but this music was better with Lilia Podkopayeva in 1995. Her FX routine was amazing !
     
  25. museksk8r

    museksk8r Holding an edge and looking dangerously sexy

    3,301
    472
    83
    1. Kwan 1996
    2. Butyrskaya 1999
    3. Sato 1994
    4. Baiul 1993
    5. Yamaguchi 1992
    6. Yamaguchi 1991
    7. Chen 1995
    8. Kwan 1998
    9. Lipinski 1997
    10. Trenary 1990
     
  26. Blair

    Blair New Member

    103
    15
    0
    I couldn't agree with you more! I had never realized how much better a program Kwan had in 97 compared to Salome in 96. Really brilliant choreography full of transitions. I would even guess that choreography could hold up pretty easily under IJS standards.
     
  27. museksk8r

    museksk8r Holding an edge and looking dangerously sexy

    3,301
    472
    83
    You know, the name of this thread title is "Rank the World Championship winning Ladies LPs 1990 - 1999" and Kwan actually did beat Lipinski in the LP at the 1997 Worlds, but due to a 4th place in the SP, she didn't win the gold medal overall. With that said, if I included MK's '97 Worlds LP in my rankings, it would be 3rd in my list behind Kwan 1996 and Butyrskaya 1999.
     
  28. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

    2,103
    135
    63
    Did that #4 pick as Baiul really just happen, especially over all the performances from 5-9? :eek:
     
  29. museksk8r

    museksk8r Holding an edge and looking dangerously sexy

    3,301
    472
    83
    It sure did, and I'm not even a Baiul fan, but her LP at the 1993 Worlds stands for me as her best program ever! It surely beats Lipinski's tiny jumps and immature presentation from 1997, Chen's typically cheated jumps (I absolutely hated her Lutz and flip technique), Yamaguchi's flawed '92 LP to the overplayed Malaguena (plus, I've always believed Kristi truly blossomed as a pro skater; I'm not a big fan of her eligible skating), and Trenary's program is too outdated and lacking in difficulty, IMO. As for Kwan, I really do love her and her Lyra Angelica LP, but her '98 Worlds LP skate of it was one of her worst that season . . . only the '97 Skate Canada LP performance was worse. Still, with Slutskaya and Butyrskaya absolutely tanking in the '98 Worlds SP, Kwan was able to easily win her 2nd World title.
     
  30. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    13,704
    787
    113
    I agree Baiul's best ever performance was the 93 Worlds LP which kind of sucks for her to be honest. :lol: