Rank the World Championship-winning Ladies LPs 1990 - 1999

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by olympic, Jun 30, 2010.

  1. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    The ladies from one end of this decade to the other usually had jump content to include the 3z, so this should be fun -

    1. Kwan '96 - 'Salome' is one of her best choreographed programs and she hit 7 triples and 2 2x's to squeak past defending champ Lu Chen.
    2. Sato '94 - I think most including myself feel that her basics were the best and she executed the LP when it counted most in her home country.
    --Lipinski '98 [Nagano] - I thought this performance was superior to her '97 performance; a little more poise, still contained the 3l-3l and a 3-3 seq. at the end of the LP which beat Kwan.
    3. Yamaguchi '91 - 'Samson and Delilah'. 3f - 3t seq. was daring at the time, although she popped the sal. But I thought she was quite spirited througout with decent non-jump elements, too.
    4. Chen '95 - I feel 'The Last Emperor' was original and a real break-out for her on the choreo front. Also, she executed this program, but her spins weren't the best and I think she may have doubled something.
    --Yamaguchi '92 [Albertville] - 3z/3t, but stumbled on the 3l and doubled the sal
    5. Butyrskaya '99 - the performance of her career with 'Otonal' before it became overused, true lutz and 3-3 seq. Still, was a little stiff at times in her non-jump elements, but had presence on the ice.
    6. Lipinski '97 - She was good, clean, fast, with competent spins and spirals, and the 3l-3l was revolutionary, but she was still a bit juniorish overall.
    7. Yamaguchi '92 - 'Malaguena'. 3z/3t but fell on the 3sal. I felt this performance was anti-climactic, though
    8. Kwan '98 - Was a lesser performance of 'Lyra Angelica' after the magical performance at Nats and was even better at the Olympics. She stumbled on the 2x [I think] and the slow ethereal style didn't work if she wasn't committed to it 110%
    9. Baiul '93- Despite all the hype at the time, I don't think this performance stands the test of time. Easy, poorly constructed program.
    10. Trenary '90 - This performance content to 'Unchained Melody' was more from the '80s era. She skated well for her, and hit the 3f, but everything else was 3t or 3s. I always thought IMO that Jill was a little stiff and I always thought this music was cheesy and Nancy Kerrigan-like
    -- Baiul '94 [Lillehamer]- It's sad that this was an olympic-winning performance. On reflection, I would have this behind Trenary '90 whose performance was better constructed with actual spins, spiral, entrances and jump combos, and both had 3 triples
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2010
  2. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    1. Kwan 1996
    2. Butyrskaya 1999
    3. Yamaguchi 1992- I would rank first if she hadnt fallen on the sal
    4. Yamaguchi 1991
    5. Chen 1995- probably the most artistically strong on the list but technically not as strong as many of the others
    6. Sato 1994
    7. Lipinski 1997
    8. Kwan 1998
    9. Baiul 1993- like Olympic said lots of hype at the time but she doesnt stand the test of time. Anyway Bonaly and Chen both outskated her by a long ways that night.
    10. Trenary 1990- I thought I was stuck in a time warp when she won.


    However if I counted all the best LPs including silver winning ones my list would be:

    1. Ito 1990
    2. Chen 1996
    3. Kwan 1996
    4. Butyrskaya 1999
    5. Kwan 1997
    6. Yamaguchi 1992
    7. Slutskaya 1997
    8. Yamaguchi 1991
    9. Chen 1995
    10. Bonaly 1993
  3. falling_dance

    falling_dance The Scarlet Unlettered

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    1. Chen, 1995
    1. Kwan, 1996
    3. Butyrskaya, 1999
    4. Sato, 1994
    5. Yamaguchi, 1992
    6. Yamaguchi, 1991
    7. Lipinski, 1997
    8. Kwan, 1998
    9. Baiul, 1993
    10. Trenary, 1990
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2010
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  4. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Again, Lipinski and Trenary didn't win the lps the years they won their world titles.

    [90 Ito]
    [97 Kwan]
    96 Kwan
    95 Chen
    94 Sato
    99 Butyrskaya
    97 Lipinski
    91 Yamaguchi
    98 Kwan
    92 Yamaguchi
    90 Trenary
    93 Baiul
  5. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    The 97 Worlds LP judging was interesting since Kwan, Lipinski, and Slutskaya all 3 1st place votes. It came down to majority of 2nds to decide the order in the LP.
  6. eurodance2001

    eurodance2001 Active Member

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    Which was total BS... Slutskaya was nothing but sloppy skating and very little artistry with decent speed; maybe that's what swayed some of the judges in her favor.. Phantom on Ice was VERY forgettable.. Someone in the other WC thread mentioned that they never really understood the Kwan hype; and I for one never really understood the Slutskaya hype. She always seemed unrefined and sloppy; nothing really memorable from her minus her WC 2005 freeskate in Moscow. It's as if the judges wanted/needed a skater to have a rivalry with Kwan and chose Slutskaya. the number of times that she would land LESS jumps than Kwan and still get higher technical as well as almost equal Kwan in presentation was irksome.. ANYWAY... Tara had decent presentation with her tiny jumps... Kwan had the complete program with the smallest of errors in doubling the second triple lutz.. Kwan should've won the LP more easily..
  7. eurodance2001

    eurodance2001 Active Member

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    My list is:
    1. Kwan 1996
    2. Ito 1990
    3. Kwan 1997
    4. Butryskaya 1999
    5. Yamaguchi 1991
    6. Chen 1995
    7. Sato 1994
    8. Kwan 1998
    9. Baiul 1993
    10. Yamaguchi 1992
  8. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I think you are being far harsh on Slutskaya. I agree Kwan deserved to win the LP but Irina had the strongest overall technical that night IMO. Her jumps and spins were better than either Tara or Michelle, other than Tara's extra jump content. Her footwork and spirals were also better than Tara's. Artistically she was very unpolished and her music and costume were horrendous. However she did have strong skating skills, very strong speed, and interpreted and hit the accents of the music well I thought. On presentation I think she was even a bit better than Tara. I think she definitely should have been placed over Tara which would have Kwan the gold overall.

    For me the LP results:

    Kwan: 5.8 technical, 5.9 presentation
    Slutskaya: 5.9 technical, 5.7 presentation
    Lipinski: 5.8 technical, 5.6 presentation


    As for Irina's rise due to needing a rival for Kwan I agree that was true. And the all powerful Russian federation never liked or had confidence in Butyrskaya for a variety of reasons so it was never going to be her so....
  9. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Wow you think Yamaguchi's 92 performance was the worst? I thought other than her one fall it was an incredible skate. If she had landed the triple salchow it would have been her best performance ever IMO.
  10. eurodance2001

    eurodance2001 Active Member

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    Irina had good speed, but hunched over posture, barely saved the landing of the first lutz, and her last triple toe was kind of iffy.. 5.9 is a bit much for that I think... eh! So many years later...
  11. eurodance2001

    eurodance2001 Active Member

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    Maybe I should revisit Yama's 92 program.. I haven't seen a few of these programs in quite awhile...
  12. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Like I said I think overall her jumps and spins were still the best of all of the top 3, and her spirals and footwork were fairly good and better than Tara's. Her first triple lutz was a bit wobbly on the landing but still clean, Michelle's triple toe-triple toe was wobbly on the landing too and an easier triple-triple than either Irina or Tara's. And Tara of course flutzes, has small though very precise jumps, and falls short in virtually all other technical areas. So I think she deserved the highest technical mark. Presentation wise I think Michelle was so far superior to either Irina or Tara, but Irina was still no worse than Tara here either. Overall Irina definitely deserved 2nd in the LP over Tara I think.
  13. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    It's not that easy. My favorite skaters of the decade were Michelle Kwan, Kristi Yamaguchi and Yuka Sato. But Kristi made mistakes in 1991 and 1992, MK in 1998. Yuka was far from perfection in 1994.
    The mistake-free programs (7 clean triples) were Butyrskaya 1999, Lipinski 1997, Kwan 1996.
    It's all a matter of personnal preferences.
    My thoughts :

    1-MK 1996 Salome (with Lu Chen and her wonderful Rachmaninoff)
    2-Kristi Yamaguchi 1992 Malaguena
    3-Tara Lipinski 1997 Sense and Sensibility
    4-Maria Butyrskaya 1999 Otonal
    5-MK 1998 Lyra Angelica
    6-Kristi Yamaguchi 1991 Samson and Delilah
    7-Yuka Sato 1994
    8-Lu Chen 1995 Last emperor
    9-Oksana Baiul 1993
    10-Jill Trenary 1990
  14. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    Baiul and Sato ahead of Yamaguchi in 1992 : her 6 triples (including a 3Lutz/3Toe) and her basics ?? LOL :eek:
  15. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    I don't understand Baiul being ahead of Yamaguchi, but Sato's basics were at a higher level than Yamaguchi's basics. It was the 3Lz that Sato normally could not pull off to save her life.
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2010
  16. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    I'm confounded by my realization that IMO, Baiul's '94 Olympic LP was the weakest of all championship-winning LPs in the 90s, including Jill Trenary in 1990. In fact, you'd have to go past Midori in '89 into the 80s to find a championship that that performance could have won.... :scream:
  17. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    1. Chen 1995--I LOVE this program... I could watch it forever... It's a shame the judges never truly realized her true elegance and artistry... Even if she doubled a jump...
    2. Kwan 1996--Great program.
    3. Lipinski 1997--Great technical skating.
    4. Butyskaya 1999--Best program she ever did... Unfortunately, she is just too stiff in the knee.
    5. Yuka Sato 1994--The only cleanish program she really only gave... But her basics and footwork were to die for.
    6. Michelle Kwan 1998--Not as pure and graceful as the others performances she gave... Ran out of steam towards the end of the season.
    7. Yamaguchi 1991--Better than 92, I thought, but still does nothing for me.
    8. Yamaguchi 1992--Her skating does nothing for me... Pretty boring programs... Nothing is special about her and yet she still gets 5.9s across the board for presentation.
    9. Trenary 1990--Her skating is no match to any of the skaters mentioned above IMO.
    10. Baiul 1993--Hate her skating, junior-like programs, no footwork, two-footed jumps, and dumb poses.
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2010
  18. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I have to disagree on you vs Trenary. Baiul's 94 Olympic LP as overrated and undeserving of a gold medal that night as it was, would have easily beaten Trenary's 1990 LP just in the LP phase anyway IMHO. I actually disliked Baiul's performance more with all the mugging, posing, and the free loading at the end which I found just sloppy. However she atleast stood up all 5 types of triples even if a couple two footed while the only thing Trenary tried harder than a triple salchow was a shaky triple flip, and did a beautiful triple lutz to start the program. Granted it isnt just about jumps but I dont even want to start into comparing the bizarre choreography, musical edits, and many other strange aspects of both programs. :lol:
  19. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I am not sure if I can think of any skater who had better basics than Sato. As an amateur I found her programs kind of bland and she never really had the It factor. As a pro she was so much better. Still even as an amateur she was a skaters skater. She had no real actual skating weaknesses of any kind other than possibly jumps to a degree.
  20. eurodance2001

    eurodance2001 Active Member

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    Like I said, I need to watch some of these again. So I guess I will "withhold" further comment until I have watched them on youtube while sober; I think that's the problem.. LOL..... I "withdraw" my list for now... :lol:
  21. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    See. I view it as both ladies attempted 5 triples and landed 4 clean triples- Oksana's lutz and loop v. Jill's Flip were the most difficult. But IIRC Jill also did an axel-3sal [albeit with a step-out] and 3toe-2toe. Oksana had none. Jill also had entrances, better spins and a spiral vs. Oksana's nearly non-existent spins and non-spiral. Jill had a better constructed layout to her program, too. Both had not-so-great music and as you said, bizzarre choreography.

    Anyway, JMHO, and it was close in my mind.
  22. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    It really just shows what a joke that Baiul was placed over Kerrigan, Chen, or even Sato in the LP to win that oft criticized OGM when we are even debating her OGM winning LP vs Trenary's outdated 1990 Worlds winning LP. The judges really dropped the ball on that one, it was probably one of the worst decisions ever.
  23. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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  24. eurodance2001

    eurodance2001 Active Member

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  25. giselle23

    giselle23 Active Member

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  26. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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  27. attyfan

    attyfan Well-Known Member

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    ITA! IMO, duplicate golds were warranted for Kwan and Chen -- not because of a scandal, but because both were so wonderful in both portions of the event.
  28. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    I was frustrated to have to rank Lulu's '95 Worlds LP and MK's '98 Worlds LP, when Lulu's '96 LP and MK's '97 LP were both better IMO.
  29. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Top 2 or 3? I doubt it, hardly any of us have ranked Chen of 1995 in the top 2 or 3 and Chen was still the rightful winner ahead of Kwan's performances that year.
  30. chipso1

    chipso1 Well-Known Member

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    1. Kwan 1996
    2. Yamaguchi 1992
    3. Lipinski 1997
    4. Chen 1995
    5. Butyrskaya 1999
    6. Kwan 1998
    7. Yamaguchi 1991
    8. Sato 1994
    9. Trenary 1990
    10. Baiul 1993
  31. Lainerb

    Lainerb New Member

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    1. Chen 1995-Toller Cranston choreography is to die for. This program was truly unique and orginal, I can't say we have seen anything quite like it before or since. Though extensive use of the arms can be seen as flailing, Chen and Cranston utilized arm movements along with full body movement to create an exotic and beautiful dance, there were transitions and footwork into most the jumps and the entire program is IMO an example of what good transitions should be. Her Rachmaninoff program a year later while beautiful and minimalistic was actually rather bare when compared to this.

    The rest of them I could care less about. Well, Maria's win was heart warming.
  32. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    LOL that's what I was thinking when I found this thread!

    Btw, I thought Sandra Bezic choreographed this routine... Either way, every program Lu Chen did was sublime in terms of artistry.
  33. giselle23

    giselle23 Active Member

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    I'll have to look at Chen's performance again, but the Eurosport guys seemed to think that Michelle had won the long program. There is little doubt that she was undermarked.

    ETA: OK, I watched Chen's performance. Her artistry was clearly superior (as was her footwork), but Kwan had 7 triples and Lulu only 5 (by my count). So under 6.0, Lulu deserved to win the LP. But Michelle should have been second. On reconsideration, Michelle should not be top 2 or 3, but there is a case for this order: Kwan 1996, Chen 1996, Chen 1995, Kwan 1997. Kwan 1995. Kristi probably belongs in there somewhere, but I haven't watched her programs recently.
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2010
  34. Fallcolor

    Fallcolor New Member

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    my list would be something like:

    1) Kwan 1996- maintained power and speed required for this program, very exotic and mature for a 15 yr old lady. Did Lori nichol do the choreography? It was actually quite exquisite. Just wished she did the 3+3 like she did at '95 skate america though...

    2) Chen 1995- LOVED Bezic's work with Lulu. Mature and refined, brought out her musicality.
    3) Butyrskaya 1999- her hunger and drive to land every single triple was inspiring
    4) Lipinski 1997
    5) Yamaguchi 1991- loved this Samson+Delilah LP the most. Yama delivered 6 triples, amazing spins, had great character, despite singling the salchow...
    6) Sato 1994- not my favourite competitive skater, a bit bland to me, but her skate was nearly flawless, again, skating skills were the strongest of all the ladies.

    7) Kwan 1998- despite the obvious mistakes, i felt here, she skated more freely than she did in Nagano, with more power, speed, and ice coverage. Given the let down of the Olympics and not winning OG she probably felt she had nothing to lose.

    8)Yamaguchi 1992- i love Yama, and glad she landed the 3lz+3t, but for some reason didn't like her Malaguena as much as her previous LP. only glitch was a fall on the 3sal.

    9) Baiul- lack of combination jumps in her LP, triples were not as clean as it could have been, a glittery/princessy program. Sold it well though! (not much substance, though). SP was much better.

    bigggg gap***

    10) Trenary- jumps were just um...not good. Her doing a 2t+2t combo in the short should have left her out of the top 5 and therefore prevented a chance to win gold overall, IMO. She had VERY refined edges, however. Nice costume too.
  35. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    OMG, I just watched Trenary's program . . . and now I have clubbed in Santorini in the late 70s, watched the pensive portion of an early 80's after school special about teen pregnancy, and clubbed in Miami in the late 80s with a brief detour to an Acapulco All-inclusive.
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2010
  36. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Yamaguchi's 91 and 92 winning LPs would easily beat Kwan in 1995. Her artistry was far superior to Kwan at that point in her career, as were her non jump elements, she had much more speed at that point, and with a triple lutz-triple toe combo she actually had more jump content in her 92 Worlds LP even with her fall on the triple salchow than Kwan. I am pretty sure Sato's 94 Worlds LP would beat Kwan from 95 too, and she actually might have beaten Chen too considering she had 6 triples, superior spins, superior footwork, and unmatched basic skating and speed, even though I much prefered Chen's 95 program artistically to Sato's of 94. And Maria of 1999 would also would easily beat Kwan of 95 as they had the same # of triples and again Maria's 99 Worlds LP would easily beat Kwan of 95 in artistry and all non jump elements. I would probably put Kwan's 95 Worlds LP between Irina and Tara's 97 LPs (behind Irina and over Tara) but that might be in part since I just dont like Tara's skating otherwise I might have put her ahead too. And really Kwan's artistry, maturity, power, and overall skating was so far superior in 98 than 95 it is hard to believe her own 98 performance wouldnt have easily beaten her 95 performance despite the 1 or 2 mistakes and her flawless skate and 7 triples of 95. Actually you could probably say the same about her 99 Worlds LP with just a couple small mistakes (despite that it placed a distant 2nd to an on fire Butyrskaya). And lastly I am not sure if it was even better than Bonaly or Chen from the 93 Worlds either.

    I agree Kwan probably deserved a medal at the 95 Worlds but IMO it was definitely not a top 5 Worlds LP of the whole decade either, probably not even top 10, I would guess top 15 once you take into account all the programs at Worlds in the 90s. Her program was nice all around with good choreography, good artistry for a young girl, decent spins and other elements, and 7 triples are very impressive. However she certainly didnt have top notch artistry, speed, power yet and there were better jumping performances too. And the only reason anyone would think anyone other than Chen should have won the 95 Worlds was the subconscious bias against her formed from judges underrating her for years already at that point. Plus everyone was just expecting Bobek to walk away with it that year after the short program, so were probably looking for some new exciting kid to take her place as the coronated winner instead rather than Mrs. 3rd place.
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2010
  37. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    AM I the only one who thinks that Surya Bonaly LP in 1993 was her best at Worlds, and should have won 1993 Worlds and would have won 1994 Worlds ? :slinkaway
  38. shirley

    shirley New Member

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    Sure she could have won 1993 worlds. But Sato deserved the one in 1994.
  39. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    I meant that, IMO, Surya's LP at 1993 Worlds could have won 1994 Worlds over Sato. ;)
  40. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    You are definitely not alone on that one. Surya was clearly the winner at 93 worlds, not yucky Baiul. Putting Baiul on top during her two year career at a bunch of events was perhaps the worst thing the judges ever did considering Baiul's lack of technical content and her love of two-footing jumps.

    Not sure about 94 worlds though. Considering it was in Japan and Yuka skated the SP and LP of her life, don't think it was going to happen. Nevertheless, Surya should have won the 93 title.