Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by shady82, Mar 1, 2010.
^ Wow it's amazing that everyone is putting Asada near the bottom.
That's because she fell at a failed Triple Axel attempt and took like twenty seconds to re-group herself. The other skaters were more-or-less clean and skated with conviction.
In fairness to Mao, some of those twenty seconds were clearly leading up to a 3-3 attempt. That said, many viewers (self included) cannot help but cast a colder eye on even the triple-triple attempt that escaped downgrading, which also helps to keep her program near the bottom of most lists here.
ETA: I think I misremembered the 4CC 3F3T as the one from Worlds.
Are you referring to her 3F-3T right after the fall? Because I feel that was the best 3F-3T she ever did (and she was awarded good GOE for it). She did get her 2nd combo downgraded though. I actually feel the fall in the beginning makes her performance more exciting because it was so unexpected.
1. 2001- Michelle Kwan - Song of the Black Swan. This is still my definitive Ladies LP. Subtle yet interesting music with highs and lows (I don't remember many skaters using chamber music before this), great choreography that weaved moves in and out, had tons of speed and Kwan skated with incredible conviction.
2. 2004- Shizuka Arakawa - Turandot. Two Triple/Triples, and an exciting performance that put pressure on Cohen and got the crowd going. This version had better placed elements and better music edit than her 2006 version, IMO. The only problem is that there wasn't much interesting going on in-between and all of her MITF seemed to be nothing spread eagles. Also, I know a lot of people find her lack of emotion to be a nice, cool expression that shows that one doesn't have to give over-the-top facial expressions to sell a routine. I'd agree, but I also think there's a difference between subtlety and musicality that simply isn't there. Still an exciting performance either way.
3. 2000- Michelle Kwan- The Red Violin. Like 2001, a come-from-behind performance that excited the French crowd and helped solidify her status as one of the top female skaters of that generation. The only problem was that this routine was unusually front-loaded for Kwan and she had more interesting subtle moves at Skate America. Also, her jumps didn't seem as on and her landing positions not as secure as they were in 2001.
4. 2003- Michelle Kwan - Aranjuez. Kwan's most passionate performance at a World Championships. I remember at the time, many Kwan detractors weren't a fan of her style because she seemed very rehearsed and not loose like Slute. However, I also remember speaking to some who liked the direction Kwan was going (until we found out she was regressing by 2006) in terms of her moving with more abandon. Her skating seemed fresh again. However, the choreography didn't have the content her older routines had, and she only attempted 6 triples here with two combinations with back-to-basics but very well-done spins.
5. 2005- Irina Slutskaya - Queen of Hearts. Very similar to Kwan's Aranjuez in terms of abandon and freedom. This was a toss-up between Kwan's Araunjuez, but as a Kwan-fan, I simply enjoyed Kwan's skating more. Slutskaya's skate felt very improvised and exciting. It was a miracle skate after her illness and even a non-fan like me enjoyed it.
6. 2009- Yu Na Kim - Scheherezade. Great technical skate, although she botched a Triple Salchow and did 3 double axels to milk the COP. She skated blazingly fast with huge, exciting jumps. After her skate, it was a feeling of "finally" as people expected her to have this kind of skate at the prior two World Championships. Major deductions for the jumping errors and plagiarism from Kwan's Scheherezade. Watching them side-by-side was illustrative of that.
7. 2008 - Mao Asada - Fantaisie Impromptu. Would have been higher but her big mistake in the beginning was disruptive and one has to take that into account. However, Mao skates very great flow and softness and she sold the routine after that disruption in the beginning. I think this was the last LP of her's that was watchable. I quite enjoyed it. Plus, she saved us from having to have Carolina Kostner be called World Champion. With the performance Kostner gave, it would've been a shame if she won Worlds.
8. 2002- Irina Slutskaya - Tosca. Very solid and it was nice to see her win a Worlds title. She deserved the title, but I really didn't like this program and a conservative performance didn't do much for it. It was full of two-foot posing, throw-away extraneous over-dramatic upperbody movement to hide the lack of substantive choreography and just slow musical phrasing. To me, it exposed Irina's weaknesses as a skater and she should've went with something with a fast tempo and highlighted her speed and high jumps. I also thought Kwan should have won the 2002 LP considering what both of them put out (with Slutskaya winning overall due to the SP).
9. 2006- Kimmie Meissner - Queen of Sheba. Airplane arms and jump technique issues aside, Meissner was on fire in this performance and hit the highlights of the music. She gave a performance most didn't think she was capable of with two 3/3s. She was able to outscore both Cohen and Suguri despite reputation scoring and better choroegraphy from both. That said, her skating skills just aren't up to snuff with the others on this list.
10. 2007- Miki Ando - Violin Concerto. A nice performance. The win itself was more rewarding than the actual performance I found. I was happy for Miki considering the way the prior season ended up for her, but her LP performance doesn't really have much replay value. Horrible sit spins (I felt like she did a thousand of them in that routine), and insipid Morosov choreography hurt this performance, IMO.
Agree 100% with Viet! Kwan in 2001 and 2000 was AMAZING. Her 2000 Worlds free was so underrated and didn't even get the scores that it deserved in the FP and she still managed to win.
She was 3rd after the SP and Irina was reigning Grand Prix final Champion and the pre Worlds favorite, while Maria was defending World Champion and leader after the short. I think that is why her marks were what they were skating first in the final flight. The judges believed they couldnt possibly just shut out the other 2 to come at that point.
Ando in 2007 and Asada in 2008 did not even win the lp.
That may have been the case, but I'm not sure inserting Asada's 2007 and Kim's 2008 LPs would change the order too much from the general consensus thus far in this thread.
Going first didn't help her, but as a former World Champion and coming out with that kind of a skate, with the triple-triple that everyone was harping on her to do, and still get 5.6's and 5.7's for technical was a joke. Irina was not the artiste Kwan was at that time (or maybe ever) so the fact that Irina pulled some 5.9's for her program was laughable. ANYWAY, I'm glad Kwan won despite the low range of scores..
1. Kwan 2003 Aranjuez
2. Kwan 2001 SOBS
Tied 3. Arakawa 2004 Turandot & Slutzkaya 2005 Wonderland
Tied 9. Ando 2007 & Meissner 2006
i also like the intensity and the fact that she was first to skate in the final group. it added drama.
me too. and those boos from the crowd as her score was revealed was really justified. a 7 triple, cleanly executed program was not worth a 5.6. had she not won i wonder how the french would react?
And in the SP, she had even lower scores.
The fact that she skated before Maria and Irina in the LP may explain her low marks.
But I agree with you, Michelle killed the competition before the others skated and deserved better than 5.6 or 5.7
Here are mine:
1. Kwan 2001--A perfect program, with 7 triples including a 3-3. I loved the way the program built to a dramatic ending. Kwan was the best at that.
2. Kwan 2000--Another perfect, 7 triple program in a come-from-behind win. This is a close second to 2001, based only on my own, purely subjective opinion.
3. Kwan 2003--Not the most technically difficult ("only" 6 triples), but the full Kwan magic was on display. Passion, command of the ice, and technical perfection lift this program above others who did a 3-3.
4. Arakawa-2004--The most technically difficult of any World's FP that I can recall, combined with the beauty of Shizuka's skating. I love her Ina Bauer.
5. Yu Na 2009. Only 5 triples, but the best 3-3 of any lady in the history of the sport and technical perfection on the jumps she did complete. And her presence on the ice is captivating.
6. Irina-2005. I rank her above Mao because of the technical content and lack of mistakes.
7. Mao-2008. A brave performance. After a frightening fall, she came back with two 3-3's. Despite the mistake, I much prefer this to Mao's winning skate in 2010
8. Kimmie 2006--This was Kimmie's best performance ever. Maybe her 3-3s wouldn't be credited by today's super-picky standards, but she did what she had to do in that year and deserved to win.
9. Irina-2002. A consolation prize. Michelle should have won the long program, but I don't think it would have made a difference in the final placements.
10. Miki 2007--Because I can't remember this at all!
I´ll only rank those three that are best, IMO:
1. Shizuka Arakawa 2004 (she was sooo amazing technically and artistically)
2. Yuna Kim 2009 (her artistry is the best ever and even with one fault she was great technically, too)
2. Irina Slutskaya 2005 (a programme that suited Slutskaya really well)
Honestly I think the judges were planning to place Kwan 3rd that year even after her skate, and would have if Maria and Irina had skated cleanly, or 2nd had just one of them skated better than they did. Not saying I agree with that, just that is what their expectation was I believe. That said apart from the two 5.6s for technical which I agree were a joke her scores were an even mix of 5.7s and 5.8s for technical and 5.8s and 5.9s for presentation which were reasonable considering she was going 1st with the other 2 gold contenders left to come. I would agree the performance was good enough for 5.8s and 5.9s technical and 5.9s and 6.0s for artistic if she skated later of course.
great skate but I agree. I mean I understand being influenced, but despite what I've heard ppl say about it just being the dress, the spiral placement and the end pose being similar, I disagree. I notice quite a lot of nuances that were also similar. I mean yu-na's version does have a few cool unique choreographic elements of its own but even in the quieter interlude in the middle of the music she does the exact same "raising hands to the air together and fluttering along with her back" movement michelle does. actually yu-na's program is more choreographically complete than michelle's, since michelle started to have empty programs after 01, but I can't give yu-na that much credit when so much of it was "inspired" by michelle's program
for my ranking I'm putting presentation/artistry ahead of technical elements, as although the latter are important as well the rules changed dramatically following 2005..so
1. song of the black swan - kwan
2. the red violin - kwan
3. turandot - arakawa
4. concierto de aranjuez - kwan
5. scheherazade - kim
6. queen of spades - slutskaya
7. fantasie impromptu - asada
8. tosca - slutskaya
9. mendelssohn - ando
10. queen of sheba - meissner
I am surprised Slut's 2005 worlds lp isn't a top pick for many. To me it's one of the top three along with Kwan's 2000 performance (Sluts/Kwan top two in any order). Kwan's 01 performance is good but unlike the 00 LP, it's not a breakthrough, choreographically or technically for her. She did that the year before (landing 7 jumps with a 3/3).
Arakawa's program isn't bad. To me she's top 4 because that was the best performance she has done technically.
To me, Meissner, Ando and Asada should be somewhere below mid-point as Meissner's style wasn't mature in 2006 and Ando and Asada didn't even win their free skate.
The rest of the programs aren't exactly "performance-of-your-life" so they're somewhere in the middle. However, I prefer some of them choreographically. For instance, choreographically, I really like Kim's Scheherazade but I don't consider her performance at worlds performance of her life, though very solid.
2003 Kwan - the joy and the big jumps
2000 Kwan - the speed and the 3/3, lesser choreography and use of music than at Skate America
2001 Kwan - the beauty of the program (but also the cheated triples)
2004 Arakawa - lovely program but again with the cheated 3/3s and lack of expression
2009 Kim - fast and exciting performance; beautiful choreography and really using the music, silly 3sal mistake
2002 Slutskaya - big clean jumps and very 'complete' program - but lacks anything deep
2005 Slutskaya - emotional skate but also very sloppy
2008 Asada - very distracting opening fall
2007 Ando - nothing stands out
2006 Meissner - cheated jumps and mechanical expressions
I didn't see any cheated triples in 2001. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFp7RVrihvk
Perhaps not 100% secure on the landings of the sal and second lutz, but those are nits.
Come on. The flip and second lutz were both cheated by about a quarter turn. The second 3toe in the 3/3 was also slightly cheated but within the acceptable range. Her jumps in 2001 were all around not as strong as her 2000 jumps or her jumps in 2003-4.
And that reaction was well-earned by Kimmie. I was there to enjoy it and we were all on our feet before she even finished. She threw down the program of the night when the rest of the field :coughSashaSplatcough: wasn't doing so well.
Now that the 2009-2010 Olympic season is over, I was wondering how people would rank the 3 winning Olympic lps (Sarah's lp, Shizuka's lp, and Yu Na 's lp) with the 10 World lps?
I rank them as follows:
1. Kwan 2000 -- Difficult music, difficult situation, and the result was magic!
2. Slutskaya 2005 -- I love a good comeback, and this was one for the ages!
3. Kwan 2001 -- Wonderful.
4. Kwan 2003 -- Such joy!
5. Arakawa 2004 -- Beautiful -- in all ways.
6. Kim 2009.
7. Meissner 2006
8. Ando 2007 -- I was so happy for her
9. Asada 2008 -- gutsy, but mistakes
10 Slutskaya 2002
I'm too lazy to formally re-rank but I'd have Yu-Na pretty close to the top, quite possibly #1. I just thought she was phenomenal, especially under that intense national pressure. Just... WOW.
I hate to say it because I adore her skating, but Shizuka would probably be in the mid-to-lower half for me. It was a good but not phenomenal skate, controlled but cautious, no 3/3s, popped jump and seemingly did the same damn spin four times. For me, her Worlds FS was so much better.
Not sure about Sarah, but I'd probably have her just behind Shizuka. Props for attempting two 3/3 and the nice layback, but points deducted for the hideous flutz, somewhat frontloaded jumps IIRC, and some choreo that Robin Wagner stole from MK. She did skate with joy and it was fun to watch, so good for her.
1. 2001 I absolutely loved this program and Michelle skated it perfectly!
1. 2005 Irina skated this so well and considering her illness amazing. I really enjoyed this program so much. These two programs tied!
2. 2004 This was a very impressive skate I really enjoyed the entire program.
3. 2002 A very clean program and very well done.
4. 2003 Loved the music not much content artistically, but she did skate with joy.
5. 2000 This wasn't one of my favorite programs, but she did skate it very well.
6. 2008 I'm not a big fan, but this program was good except for the fall.
7. 2009 This program wasn't that good at all.
8. 2007 I don't like Miki's skating, but I was happy for her when she won.
9. 2006 Kimmie is just boring boring boring!!
Yuna would probably be top two, Shiz would be in the middle, and Sarah would be at the bottom with Kimmie.
It depends on whether you credit Sarah's jumps. She flutzed and under-rotated at least one of her 3-3's. But Yu Na is the best of the three, IMO. Can there be any argument? A perfect program with a difficult 3-3, 6 triples, all well-executed, good artistry.