Rank the Skating Skills of these Senior Ladies

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by smarts1, Jul 14, 2012.

  1. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    Jumps and spins are elements, which are evaluated separately from program components such as skating skills.

    The criteria measured as skating skills for singles skating are:

    • Balance and rhythmic knee action and precision of foot placement
    • Flow and effortless glide
    • Cleanness and sureness of deep edges, steps and turns
    • Power/energy and acceleration
    • Mastery of multi directional skating
    • Mastery of one foot skating

    http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-152077-169293-64120-0-file,00.pdf

    The videos linked in Triple Wallie's post include a segment showing Harding building up her speed with a very long sequence of very short, laborious crossovers -- a hallmark of inferior skating skills. Beyond that, she certainly wasn't anywhere near "great" on any of the six criteria.

    Here's an example (mine, not the ISU's), of Tonya Harding's Skating Skills, from her 1991 Worlds FS

    And for comparison's sake, here's an example of Carolina Kostner's Skating Skills, from her 2011 Skate America FS.
     
  2. magnolia

    magnolia New Member

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    Can someone explain what differentiates Tonya Harding's skating from Irina's?
     
  3. Simone411

    Simone411 aka IceSkate98

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    This is really bothering me because I don't remember Laura Lepisto winning bronze. I actually don't remember a lot about 2010 Worlds. I do remember 2010 Olympics because I recorded it while watching on NBC.

    It's possible I don't remember because of what happened to me last year. At any rate, thanks for letting me know. This changes a lot, and Laura Lepisto should definitely be way higher on my list. :)
     
  4. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    Tonya Harding's Skating Skills, from her 1991 Worlds FS

    Irina Slutskaya's Skating Skills, from her 2005 Worlds FS (including her straight-line step sequence, which begins at about 4:40).

    Slutskaya's stroking is far more efficient, enabling her to gain speed more quickly than Harding can. Her edges, steps, and turns are much more clean and sure. She's much better than Harding was at multi-directional skating, and, though she does do a lot of crossovers and skating on two feet, her straight-line step sequence is mostly on one foot.

    I'm not sure I would rank Slutskaya as highly as some of the posters here have done, but her skating skills are clearly superior to Harding's.
     
  5. t.mann

    t.mann New Member

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    I know NBC did not show Lepisto's LP at Olympics. (I don't know about SP.)
    So it is possible that you would have missed Lepisto's Olympic performance(s) too. :)
     
  6. Simone411

    Simone411 aka IceSkate98

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    The problem is that I don't remember much at all even about the 2010 Worlds. I believe it truly has to do with what happened to me last year. I was put into an induced coma for a few days while I was in the hospital. I know it caused some short term memory, but it also caused some long term memory. There's other things that I don't remember, either.

    Oh well, I'm just glad that I'm among the living! :lol:
     
  7. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    I don't know if I agree with all of that. I think Slutskaya and Harding both had strong skating skills. Slutskaya's stroking was indeed a little more efficient, but overall I suspect Tonya was faster, and looks to have better ice coverage. Tonya also had better posture (can't believe I'm saying that lol). When it comes to long sustained edges, I'd go with Harding all the way. Take a look at Harding's pivot or her Ina Barer. Even on her fugly spirals, you have to admit the edges were deep, flowing, and held for a long period of time. Slutskaya never really had that going for her:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSlFufwQRjc#t=1m32s
    I'm surprised you would reference her SLS from 2005 Worlds, btw, which were a mess. She forgot the choreography halfway through and stumbled as she made the rest of it up.
     
  8. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Triple Butz, Tonya is pretty much walking on the ice at the point which Vagabond linked to and once she's starting to do crossovers, they are a little wobbly and scratchy as hell, spraying lots of snow. :yikes:

    Now look at Slutskaya's crossovers after that lutz/loop combo (again where Vagabond linked to). Much deeper and more secure edges, pretty much no scratching.

    There's a big difference between them on their SS.

    Quite, fluid, secure edges, good flow.

    Yes, she could use more speed and power but still she has some great qualities to her basic skating.

    Lepisto had very strong basic skating.

    Korpi, on the other hand, has mediocre and quite weak skating skills (she's generally totally overrated on the PCS due to SWP bonus :/) and I am disappointed to see you place her so highly, Marco. :p
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2012
  9. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    :wall:

    Ice coverage, posture, and choreography are not considered under the ISU's judging criteria for "skating skills."

    I must say, I am astonished by how some of our most opinionated, strident, and smug posters here on FSU are revealing in this thread that they still have no understanding of Code of Points nine years after it was introduced. :shuffle:
     
  10. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    First of all, no one said that we were using the "CoP" rules as the only guide, many of these skaters never even competed under that system. Though it may be spelled out under different CoP criteria, good utilization of ice surface and variation of movement patterns are indeed "skating skills." Posture relates greatly to the "balance" aspect of skating skills regardless of the system or criteria one uses. I never said "balletic posture" but remaining upright and not bouncing around stems from great use of edges, not relying on thrusts from your upper body to move about. When I said "choreography" I was referring directly to the steps in her step sequence. She halted on the ice, did a few pushes and made the rest of the footwork up on the spot. It was sloppy, scratchy and poorly execute.

    Here is the original post, FYI: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showpost.php?p=3619654&postcount=1

    Before you start accusing other posters of being smug and opinionated, maybe you should research your own opinions a little more. I was perfectly polite in my disagreement and didn't need to resort to name calling.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2012
  11. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    Well, in her defense she had just landed a 3A at the WC and in her excitement she got a little bit forward on her rockers lol, but if you look at the slow section here, she had calmed down a bit and the edge work in her crossovers and MITF, while maybe not brilliant, is still quite good. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3_sayFmtrE#t=05m54s
     
  12. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    If you have good skating skills, you can generate a lot of speed out of each push. Harding quickly scrapes, pretty much walking through those, doesn't really get glide on them and her edges don't seem very deep (and later in the program, it's the same again).
     
  13. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Of the eligible skaters still competing, I think that Suzuki has the best skating skills, just amazing knee action. Kostner, now that she's gotten her speed under control, is very close. Of the skaters no longer competing, I'd put Arakawa, Rochette, Lepisto, and Janet Lynn in the top group.
     
  14. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

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    I'm fascinated about the number people rating Suzuki so highly. I assumed she was more good-to-great as opposed to among the best.
     
  15. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Her kneebend is fantastic but yeah overall I'd say the same.
     
  16. t.mann

    t.mann New Member

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    ITA.
    What she is not champion material unlike Sato, Caro(without 3Lz,3F) says alot.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2012
  17. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Having seen her live in the past and twice this year, I think Suzuki has made the leap, but, then again, Kostner, too, is a different skater than she was a couple of years ago, having gained much more control over her speed.
     
  18. skfan

    skfan Member

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    suzuki is wonderful and is more reminiscent of MK than the other current competitors, but she pitches forward when she is stroking. her posture is not so superlative as the rest of her skating. kostner has better posture but has a sort of hitch in her hip action, even now in her more controlled and refined state, so she and suzuki are about equal in my book. i don't give a rat's ass about break neck speed, only that the skater has the ooze in her skating--the flow, the ease of the stroking. and to me YNK gives the impression of working for her speed at times, her flow across the ice is less smooth than mao's, so i prefer mao's 'skating skills' to the ladies i've mentioned.

    for me MK and ekaterina gordeeva are the best skaters and have the best skating skills :D
     
  19. bartek

    bartek New Member

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    Have you ever seen Irina's spirals? Some of her spirals are on the deepest edges I've ever seen and those were done with fantastic speed. The positions might have been weak but edges were first rate.

    Slutskaya builds tremendous speed with just few strokes, she's one of the fastest ever and her edges are deep and sure.

    Watch this, look how she builds huge speed with three strokes and how deep and sure her edges are.
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uIvHWQ7vyY&time=3m13s

    Then she does a backward spiral and again, look at her edge. It's extremaly deep. Even though she's very fast she controlls such a deep edge.
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uIvHWQ7vyY&time=3m20s


    For mastery of one-foot skating I would suggest you should watch her footwork from the same performance.
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uIvHWQ7vyY&time=2m43s
    She builds speed with three strokes and then does the whole step sequence on one foot without loosing ANY speed. Her skating skills are definitely among the best.

    As for Harding, even ISU uses her as an example of weak skating skills...
     
  20. gingercrush

    gingercrush New Member

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  21. t.mann

    t.mann New Member

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    As for SS, you should watch upper body as well as feet.
    Skaters who have great balance on blades have no tension in upper body and use their arms freely&diversely. Like Lambiel, Abbott, Kim, Kwan.

    A wonderful example : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oeya_bPe53Y
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2012
  22. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    It's hard to look at her feet while she is skating :p

    But while she is not as good as Lepisto, I enjoy her precision and smoothness. I think her Over the Rainbow program highlighted her strengths in SS very well.
     
  23. magnolia

    magnolia New Member

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    Very interesting discussion about skating skills. Thank you!!:)
     
  24. flipforsynchro

    flipforsynchro New Member

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    In the video of slutskayas 2002 worlds sp, did she flutz AND lip?
     
  25. all_empty

    all_empty Well-Known Member

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    Korpi's skating skills have improved dramatically over the years. Her speed and sureness are decent. She needs to get into her knees more. However, her jumping technique is horrendous, especially on the harder toe jumps. I think that's why she will never be a contender.

    I think the same can be said about her countrywoman Laura Lepisto. Her world bronze was a total gift. Her flip and Lutz and even Salchow weren't really there. But she had good speed, posture and edging.

    Want to see some solid skating skills? The post Soviet ladies of the mid to late 90s: Markova, Slutskaya, Butyrskaya, Lautowa, and Malinina.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2012
  26. bartek

    bartek New Member

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    No, she didn't. Her flip always had proper edge and lutz was taken off usually from flat or slight outside.
     
  27. npavel

    npavel Well-Known Member

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    Best
    Carolina Kostner

    Great
    Akiko Suzuki
    Laura Lepisto
    Yuna Kim

    Very good
    Joannie Rochette
    Mao Asada
    Michelle Kwan
    Irina Slutskaya
    Mirai Nagasu

    Good
    Ashley Wagner
    Miki Ando
    Yukari Nakano
    Alissa Czisny
    Kiira Korpi

    Average
    Kimmie Meissner
    Sarah Meier

    Less than average
    Rachel Flatt
    Sasha Cohen
     
  28. AliasJohnDoe

    AliasJohnDoe Dornbush 2015!!!

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    Best:
    1.Kostner
    2.Lepisto
    3.Czisny
    4.Rochette
    5.Korpi

    Great:
    6.Kwan
    7.Nakano
    8.Kim
    9.Asada
    10.Suzuki

    Good:
    11.Wagner
    12.Nagasu
    13.Hughes
    14.Meissner
    15.Slutskaya

    The rest:
    16.Ando
    17.Meier
    18.Cohen
    19.Flatt
     
  29. doubleflutz

    doubleflutz New Member

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    Gold Standard (they epitomize what is exemplary in skating skills):
    1. Janet Lynn
    2. Yuka Sato

    Excellent/Outstanding (worth watching for the bladework alone; "skater's skaters"):
    3. Carolina Kostner
    4. Laura Lepisto
    5. Joannie Rochette
    6. Kiira Korpi
    7. Yukari Nakano
    8. Akiko Suzuki

    Great (very good, but they won their titles/medals with other aspects of their skating):
    9. Irina Slutskaya
    10. Yuna Kim
    11. Michelle Kwan
    12. Sarah Meier
    13. Mirai Nagasu

    Good (fully acceptable for a modern senior lady, but lacking in some area or another (speed, edge control, posture, etc))
    14. Alissa Czisny (would be much higher on the list if she just picked up some speed; she used to be a lot better)
    15. Ashley Wagner

    Average (acceptable for a senior lady, but nothing to write home about)
    16. Miki Ando
    17. Emily Hughes
    18. Kimmie Meissner

    Bad (glaring flaws, noticeably below par for a senior lady)
    19. Sarah Hughes
    20. Rachael Flatt (slooooooooooooow)
    21. Sasha Cohen (HOW IS EDGE FORMED?!)

    Garbage (garbage)
    22. Surya Bonaly
     
  30. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Seeing Kwan move across the ice in many of her exhibitions make me rank her as one of the top in skating skills.