Rank the Olympic medal winning pairs LPs from 1992 to 2010

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by blue_idealist, Aug 13, 2010.

  1. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

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    There's one for men, ladies, and dance now, so I had to include one for pairs. :)

    I had to leave B&S 1998 off my own list, because I don't remember it well and I couldn't find it on youtube to re-watch.

    1) Sale/Pelletier 2002 - I know there probably won't be many who agree with me

    2) Pang/Tong 2010 - Yeah, I think their LP was better than Shen and Zhao's but Shen and Zhao still deserved the win overall

    3) Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze 2002

    4) Totmianina/Marinin 2006 - Technically perfect, but emotionless

    5) Kazakova/Dmitriev 1998 - Kind of the same thing as #4, and there were a few wobbles here and there, you would have had to pay close attention to notice them I think

    6) Shen/Zhao 2010 - Big flaw was her coming down early from one of the lifts

    7) Mishkutienok/Dmitriev 1994 - This was better than Gordeeva and Grinkov's, IMO. She has become heavy (for a pairs skater, not the average person) here though, that was really striking.

    8) Brasseur/Eisler 1994 - Also better than Gordeeva and Grinkov's FS that night, IMO.

    9) Shen/Zhao 2006

    10) Gordeeva/Grinkov 1994 - good program, but some technical flaws that couldn't be overlooked

    11) Woetzel/Steuer 1998 - The program that I liked the best, but it can't be denied that there were mistakes, I think it was the music that made me like it honestly

    12) Bechke/Petrov 1992 - Yes, ahead of Mishkutienok and Dmitriev's

    13) Savchenko/Szolkowy 2010

    14) Shen/Zhao 2002

    15) Zhangs 2006 - Technically very good to start with, except for the fall on the quad throw, but they REALLY waver near the end, slow down and start getting wobbly, plus it was artistically vapid

    16) Mishkutienok/Dmitriev 1992 - IMO, this program was nice, but it had too many technical mistakes for an OGM-winning performance, totally the opposite of their '94 skate

    17) Brasseur/Eisler 1992 - Too many mistakes for a OBM-winning performance, IMO, I think 1992 was just a weak year for pairs FPs at the Olympics
     
  2. SamuraiK

    SamuraiK Well-Known Member

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    I admit I haven't watched the 1992 olympic pairs competitons except for the OGM performance and I dont remember it that much so I'm skippin that event.

    EXCELLENT
    Mishkutienuk Dimitriev 1994
    Pang Tong 10
    Sale Pelletier 02
    Berezhnaya Sikharulidze 02
    Kazakova Dmitriev 1998


    GOOD

    Shen Zhao 02
    Wotzel Steuer 1998
    Berezhanaya Sikharulidze 1998
    Totmianina Marinin 06

    OK PERFORMANCE
    GordeevaGrinkov 1994
    Shen Zhao 10

    NOT PODIUM WORTHY
    Zhang Zhang 06
    Savchenko Szolkowy 10
    Shen Zhao 06
    Brasseur Eissler 1994

    WUZROBBED

    ShishkovaNaumov 94
    PangTong 06
    Ina Zimmerman 02


    Making this list, I Must say it's a shame for ShenZhao that despite being the pair legends they truly and deserving are, all their olympic LP are hardly memorable..
     
  3. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

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    Jw.. how come you think S/Z's 2002 performance was better than the 06 or 10?
     
  4. escaflowne9282

    escaflowne9282 Well-Known Member

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    IMHO , S&Z's 2002 Olympic LP performance was easily one of ,if not the,worst ever competitive skate they ever had .

    There was the fall on the quad, his turn out of the side by side triple toe loop, SBS spins that came in two different sections of the rink completely out of synchronization, a catch on the triple twist that was uncharacteristically sloppy (worse than what B&S,T&M and I&Z had done), all three of their lifts coming down early with her falling out of hold on the first one , and their second set of SBS double axels being done at two completely different times. What's so funny is this was the one unanimous placement on the night :lol:.

    There was just no question as to where they were in the pecking order at that point in time.
     
  5. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    It is true Shen & Zhou never had a particular great performance at the Olympics. Even their Olympic winning LP in 2010 would clearly not have won the 2002, 2006, or really any Olympics after 1984 other than possibly 1998.
     
  6. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

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    I think their 2010 performance could have won 1992. The performances from the medalists in '92 were quite weak. But they really won the 2010 Olympics based on the strength of their SP, and maybe their reputation.
     
  7. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    1. Miskutienok & Dmitriev 1992- oh your ranking of them is criminal. :huh: This performance was a masterpiece.

    2. Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze- technically some small mistakes but overall and amazing performance with some of the most challenging choreography ever for a pairs programs.

    3. Gordeeva & Grinkov- fabulous, they were better by 94 but unfortunately werent as flawless in their Olympic LP performance.

    4. Miskutienok & Dmitriev 1994- amazing performance with no mistakes, but I felt their 92 performance had more impact even with the couple mistakes.

    5. Gordeeva & Grinkov 1994- would have been on top if they had skated cleaner.

    6. Totmianina & Marinin 2006- technically perfect and wonderfully polished performance, under COP would probably be the winners.

    7. Sale & Pelletier 2002- perfect performance but they played it safe by going to an old program with fairly simply choreography.

    8. Brasseur & Eisler 1994- the performance they wanted in 92.

    9. Kazahkova & Dmitriev 1998- well they skated clean. The program I loved in97 but by its 2nd year it had lost some of its initial impact. It was great to see this pair live up to their potential finally but they were never going to be M&D.

    10. Bechke & Petrov 1992- wonderfully elegant and musical performance with some nice technical moves too. Without the couple errors would rank even higher.

    11. Shen & Zhou 2010- overall good performance, enough to hang on to win that night. Certainly not up to expectations as losing the LP phase to Pang & Tong shows.

    12. Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze- wonderful performance with otherwise wonderful elements and gorgeous lines and quality of skating outside of 2 unfortunately huge errors, the last right at the end in a shocking fall which really marred the performance. Unlike 2002 the choreography was more simple and straight forward.

    13. Shen & Zhou 2006- good overall performance but unfortunately marred by a couple mistakes and overall rustiness coming back from injury. I felt they deserved bronze here, but behind Pang & Tong and over the Zhangs, as opposed to the other way around.

    14. Valova & Vasiliev 1988- not one of their better performances. Too many mistakes and downgraded elements. Interesting choreography and some interesting elements.

    15. Oppergard & Watson- good overall performance marred by one ugly fall and a couple minor miscues. Enough to win the bronze with Selezneva & Makarov being out of it after the short.

    16. Zhang & Zhang- did not deserve a medal that night. A huge gift. Still some strong technical elements after the delay which should have disqualified them.

    17. Woetzel & Steuer- I never understood why they were even a top team. Anyway subpar performance for them due to injury. Program which seemed beautiful and moving in 97 but seemed a bit of a bore by its 2nd year

    18. Brasseur & Eisler- what garbage, and their medal was a sham.
     
  8. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    M&D's 92 program was a masterpiece even with the couple small mistakes that night. It would only lose to a clean performance (or maybe a flawed performance by the great G&G who were always judges pets). Shen & Zhou's performance in 2010 with the mistakes definitely would not have beaten it.
     
  9. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    My rankings are a little loose shall we say... if we're judging it as an athletic competition, T&M should be right at the top because they skated perfectly with the most difficult sbs jumps, two perfect triple throws, a 3twist, all of the difficult CoP non-jump elements, and did that with beautiful technique and presentation. But I'm not a fan of their R&J program. I'm kind of doing it based on how much I like the programs, their relative difficulty at the time, and how much the mistakes ruined the performance (M&D and B&S made very small mistakes when they won that didn't interrupt the flow at all for me, whereas S&Z in 2002 had their best choreography but it was extremely messy).

    Mishketunok & Dmitriev 1994
    Mishketunok & Dmitriev 1992
    Berezhnaya & Sikhaurulidze 2002
    [honestly though, depending on the day these go any which way]

    Kazakova & Dmitriev 1998 (above G&G because more difficult choreography and they did a sbs triple)
    Gordeeva & Grinkov 1994
    Sale & Pelletier 2002 (I actually do love this program and their performance, even though I agree with all the opinions that it was much easier and less polished than B&S etc)
    Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze 1998 (would be much higher without the fall)
    Savchenko & Szoklowy 2010 (another that would be much higher if not for awkward fall on 2a, but the program was more difficult than the other medalists)
    Totmianina & Marinin 2006
    Pang & Tong 2010
    Shen & Zhao 2010

    Woetzel & Steur 1998
    Shen & Zhao 2002 (beautiful choreo, very weak performance)
    Bechke & Petrov 1992 (the most boring Moskvina pair)
    Shen & Zhao 2006 (boring and several little mistakes)
    Brasseur & Eisler 1992 and 1994 (honestly can't remember which is which or how they skated, just don't care for either)
    Zhangs & Zhang 2006 (the worst medallsts ever)
     
    LynnW and (deleted member) like this.
  10. SamuraiK

    SamuraiK Well-Known Member

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    Well I just made the list based on what I remember from the performances.. Probably If watched them on youtube again the order will change a lot. Still, I remember enjoying them a lot after that fall at the beginning in 02, while in 06 were just bleh due to injuries and in 2010 expectations were too high, it was way subpar for them.
     
  11. LLLLutz

    LLLLutz New Member

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    Outstanding – in no particular order:

    Mishkutenok & Dmitriev 1994 – relatively clean, amazing choreography and interpretation
    Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze 2002 – two of the most amazing programs ever in pairs, combined with perfect basics.
    Mishkutenok & Dmitriev 1992 – there were mistakes, but the program was gorgeous
    Totmianina & Marinin 2006 – perfectly clean, great basics, great difficulty, but the choreography wasn’t there.

    Great:

    Gordeeva & Grinkov 1994 – that program had to be skated absolutely clean and it wasn’t. Conservative presentation.
    Kazakova &Dmitriev 1998 – great choreography and difficulty, but their basics weren’t that great and there were mistakes
    Bechke & Petrov 1992 – again – perfectly clean, but flat presentation
    Sale & Pelletier 2002 – primitive and conservative (and old) programs – in every aspect, although almost clean

    Solid effort:

    Pang Tong 2010 – weak basics
    Shen Zhao 2010 – slow, sloppy, conservative and with mistakes
    Savchenko & Sholkowy 2010 – nice programs, but there were mistakes and they weren’t “on” that night
    Berezhnaya & Skharulidze 1998 – three big mistakes for two programs, but incredible basics, speed and command of the ice
    Shen Zhao 2006 – slow, sloppy, conservative and with mistakes
    Brasseur & Eisler 1994 – well, it was almost clean, but artistically – nothing to write home about

    Not medal worthy :

    Shen Zhao 2002 – a disaster from the beginning till the end
    Brasseur & Eisler 1992 – shouldn’t been on the podium
    Zhang & Zhang 2006 - shouldn’t been on the podium
    Woetzel & Steuer 1998 - a mess
     
  12. LLLLutz

    LLLLutz New Member

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    I don't think they used it in 1996/1997 season.
     
  13. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure about that, at least under CoP. A single axel instead of a double on M&D's part would lose a lot of points. S&Z would rack up the points with the harder triple jumps and throws they were doing - the technical content was much lower all around in pairs in '92. Also, M&D's throws and lifts have the same weakness: it looks like he's having a bit of trouble lifting her. Just a bit, but it's not as effortless and smooth looking as a lot of the other pairs.
     
  14. casken

    casken Well-Known Member

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    Yes they did. Dark Blue costumes rather than the black/yellow ones in 98.

    And I agree with judgejudy that the program was better in 1997 than in 1998.

    I loved them, but the Olympics performance in particular was kind of safe and a bit clumsy. They lucked out that B&S had that freak mistake on the last lift.
     
  15. LLLLutz

    LLLLutz New Member

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    Thanks, for some reason I was sure they skated La Traviata for two seasons, so I had to watch their 1997 LP again to refresh my memory and actually I didn't like it as much as I like their Olympic LP - both in terms of constuction of the program and they they skated and presented it as well. In 1997 way too many things were missing in their skating in my opinion/
     
  16. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    Are you serious ? This is one of the funniest thing I've ever read on this board.
    What do you think is better in Brasseur&Eisler's LP ? :confused:
     
  17. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

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    The lifts, some jumps/throws
     
  18. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    I agree that Brasseur and Eisler's lifts were very good, but both throws were cheated, and G&G's throw 3 Salchow was one of the best ever. ;)
     
  19. casken

    casken Well-Known Member

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    G&G's lifts were pretty amazing too. I remember that as being one of the biggest factors between them and M&D, whose lifts were a bit simple in comparison.
     
  20. TID

    TID New Member

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    Excellent:
    B/S 2002 lp
    S/P 2002 lp
    M/D 1994 lp

    Good:
    M/D 1992 lp
    S/Z 2010 lp
    P/T 2010 lp
    T/M 2006 lp
    G/G 1994 lp
    B/S 1998 lp

    OK:
    B/E 1994 lp
    K/D 1998 lp
    W/S 1998 lp
    S/S 2010 lp
    S/Z 2006 lp
    B/P 1992 lp

    Disappointed:
    S/Z 2002 lp
    Z/Z 2006 lp
    B/E 1992 lp(I can't bear this performance....)
     
  21. pumba

    pumba New Member

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    I'll speak in a more detail on the 2002-2010 performances, since I think the 1992-1998 skating belonged to a different time with different technical level and requirements.

    Totmianina/Marinin (2006) - Technically superb, almost ideal SP+LP. IMHO their Snowstorm is the second best SP ever skated at Olys. Amazing synch, speed, posture and edges, jump elements consistency - all this makes them stand out. Some would say they are unemotional - but I'll say - go and try to skate 2 clean programmes at Olys, and smile as wide as you can. I don't remember any other gold medallist doing that at Olys in pairs since Rodnina :). Though I also find their LP not a romantic piece telling a story of Romeo and Juliet, and this is not my favourite programme that they ever created, but again - under all that pressure they managed to skate without visible effort and did not pretend what they were not in order to gain additional presentation points. BTW, I'm sure had they skated the same way they did in Torino, 4 years later in Vancouver - they wouldn't have had any competition as well.
    2 - Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze (2002) - Amazingly beautiful SP+LP. One slight mistake in LP + the best pairs SP ever. I will not spread further praise to them - all is well known :)
    3/4 - Savchenko/Szolkowi (2010) - Probably the most difficult and intricate programmes of all the mentioned pairs. Their potential was huge. But surprisingly - even with that bad execution - they were in their own league. I would have put them 1st after the SP in Vancouver.
    4/3 - Pang/Tong (2010) - The Chinese never had the skating skills of the 2 Russian pairs or the Germans, and their programmes though solid and aimed at highlighting their strengths lose in comparison with S/S, but they were cleaner in LP. I am not sure if they deserved an overall victory. Frankly speaking I don't see a pair like P/T in one row with Olympic champs as B/S, G/G, M/D... But they won the LP in 2010 fairly, and I would have put them 3rd after the SP, this would have guaranteed them the win, that I'm not so excited about, but at least that would be fair; and I also would have placed them 3rd overall in Turin.
    5 - Sale/Pelletier (2002) - Never they were my favourite couple, and I have a pretty formed attitude towards the whole 2nd GM story, but compairing their Olys performances with the rest in this time frame - I'd say they were not the worst. Both SP ans LP skated with confidence and no visible errors (I don't count their final pose fall as a big deal). Pretty simple, but confident and clean - not the worst Olympics scenario :)
    6 - Shen/Zhao (2010) - I don't like the programmes they skated this year. The same overemoting and O faces, no matter what the music is. I prefer "robotic" T/M who try to skate clean, expressing emotions with actual skating, posture, etc.. instead of learning how to emote with face properly. Overall, not the best performances in their career, with low speed, poor (to their own standard) ice coverage, etc. They had it much and much better! But considering their age and devotion to the ultimate goal - they surely deserve respect.
    7 - Shen/Zhao (2006) - My favourite programmes of S/Z! Very sad they did not skate them at 2006 worlds - I was hoping to see them again. Unfortunately - too many mistakes, but the programmes were gorgeous. I would have had them 2nd overall at that Games.
    8 - Shen/Zhao (2002) - A clean SP and a messy LP. Very ambitious and risky 4throw, but as a result - nothing close to their success a year after. BTW, I would have put them 2nd, slightly above Sale/Pelletier after the SP.
    9 - Zhang/Zhang (2006) - The SP that I really liked (Led Zep. and all..), and a disaster of a LP. No speed, no artistry.. I don't know how they managed to grab the silver actually, I would have put them no higher than 4-5 place overall.


    As for the 1992-1998 performances, Ill probably rank them as:
    Mishkutionok/Dmtriev - 1994
    Gordeeva/Grinkov - 1994
    Mishkutionok/Dmitriev - 1992
    Kazakova/Dmitriev - 1998
    Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze - 1998
    Bechke/Petrov - 1992
    Woetzel/Steuer - 1998
    Brasseur/Eisler - 1994
    Brasseur/Eisler - 1992
     
  22. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    1. Mishkutenok/Dmitriev '92 - magic. No mistakes that I can recall
    2. Pang/Tong '10 - higher for me than M/D and G/G due to CoP and emotions
    3. Shen/Zhao '10 - same as above
    4. Mishkutenok/Dmitriev '94
    5. Gordeyeva/Grinkov '94 - would be higher but for small errors and less difficult elements.
    6. Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze '02 - possibly higher but for step out on 2x by him
    7. Totmianina/Marinin '06 - technically proficient and strong, but kind of dull in comparison to those above them. Executing this LP under CoP for me puts them ahead of S/P
    8. Sale/Pelletier '02 - clean and emotional but lacked a je ne sais quoi that the top Russians exhibited
    9. Kazakova/Dmitriev '98 - Good job, but the only top Russian team that left me meh
    10. Bechke/Petrov '92 - see above
    11. Brasseur/Eisler '94 - good job, gutsy, but IIRC there were some elements that they scraped by on. I wouldn't object to moving them ahead of B/P
    12. Savchenko/Szolkowy '10 - clean performance by them would have put them in the league of the top Chinese and Russians
    13. Shen/Zhao '02 - OK. I honestly don't find them memorable in this timeframe, but I'm sure they were competent....just competent and not 'magical'
    14. Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze '98 - fall and several odd moments in this performance kept them from winning '98 IMO, too bad because they really were beautiful just to watch
    15. Shen/Zhao '06 - hobbled by injury but maybe they should've been ahead of Z/Z in '06
    16. Zhang/Zhang '06 - the lack of finesse and that horrible fall
    17. Woetzel/Steuer '98 - somewhat rocky and easy elements. Weren't really smooth IIRC
    18. Brasseur/Eisler '92 - pretty disastrous IIRC
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2010
  23. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

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    1992 M/D - Natalia 2 footed once, and one of them singled the double axel. I think it was him, IIRC (I'm looking at notes I made the other day).

    1992 B/E - Yes, it was disastrous. It's funny to think they got the same result in '94 with a much better performances. Anyway, that was one of the most unclean Olympic performances in recent years.. I don't know about before 1992. Isabelle fell on one throw, two footed on another, and fell on the side-by-side 2As.
     
  24. LLLLutz

    LLLLutz New Member

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    M&D actually weren't that clean in 1992 (at least they made more mistakes than B&S in 2002, for an example) - yet you put B&S in 6 place due to the step - out and M&D in first place ?


    Pang/Tong above M&D, G&G, B&S, T&M due to their dramatic O face expressions? :scream:
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2010
  25. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Olympic is probably thinking P/T's program would have collected the most points under COP. It is really hard sometimes comparing these 6.0 programs with the COP ones.
     
  26. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    True that. It is hard for me to put these in order.

    I placed P/T high on my list out of respect for the dynamic jumps, throws and twists all done under CoP, and having the performance of their lives in an Olympic competition when some thought they were being written off. That carries a lot of weight.

    Comparing that to the phenomenal skating skills and connection of G/G, B/S ['02], M/D who were also all great technically, but didn't have the challenge of CoP made it difficult. I find myself reflexively throwing more weight behind the CoP performances.

    I'm at work and went by memory of M/D '92. I remember that performance as magical, bringing some to tears, and didn't remember mistakes, but will take your word for it.


    See above. Additionally, I also was never a fan of T/M. I found them dull-ish and mechanical, although somewhat improved by '06, so that weighed into my mind
     
  27. LLLLutz

    LLLLutz New Member

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    If you put those performances in order according to CoP, Totmianina & Marinin would be the ultimative winners- they had the highest difficulty and the cleanest execution. As to them being dull and mechanical - I'm not a big fan of their approch to choreography either, but neither P&T, nor S&Z were that much better to put them higher - both teams used to rely way too much on facial over-dramatic acting, rather than expressing the music with their body.

    Besides, it's kind of weird not to take into account the quality of the skating - speed, flow, edging, carriage, unison, body lines, proper positions on elements - P&T are among the weakest Olympic medalists in those areas (S&Z are a bit better, but also very slow and with not that great basics)
     
  28. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    Well, it's all a matter of people's personal viewpoints, what they felt while watching, what they remember seeing, etc.
     
  29. LLLLutz

    LLLLutz New Member

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    So your rankings are based on the pure personal "like/didn't like" and have little to do with the actual technical difficulty and the quality of the skating of those pairs ? Ok, it explains everything.
     
  30. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    No they're not. My rankings are based on a combination of what the pairs put on the ice technically, along with the emotional factor. I couldn't devise another method of comparing CoP performances with 6.0 performances, so personal impressions mean a lot in my rankings.

    I see that I probably misrepresented what I meant in the previous post because I didn't get a chance to fully explain [I'm at work]. I added the 'etc.' but that apparently didn't clear things up.