question about spiral sequences under new rules

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by iarispiralllyof, Apr 19, 2010.

  1. iarispiralllyof

    iarispiralllyof Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2010
    Messages:
    774
    I have an extremely shallow knowledge of figure skating and its rules, from what I understand the new rules themselves change frequently right? what I'm confused about is how much have they changed regarding levels from back in the early 2000's to now. basically I'm confused about how some skaters with amazing spirals were given level 3 spirals back around the time the new rules were instated (which were considered very high and excellent) but now some ppl with subpar spirals are given level 4 spirals? O_O;; I'm hoping there was just a change in ranking levels or something

    sorry if this is the wrong place to post, it's a question I've been wondering for awhile.
     
  2. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2003
    Messages:
    10,667
    For the first two seasons of the new system (2003 Grand Prix, and full 2004-05 season), there were only three levels of elements -- Level 3 was the highest possible.

    Then they added a fourth level, so level 4 is the highest possible.

    Does that answer your question?

    There have also been some other changes in the rules for spiral sequences -- e.g., what counts as a feature and what doesn't, how many spiral positions are allowed and how long they have to be held -- during the first few years of the system, although they have been the same for the past several years now.


    Also, levels are based on the number of "features" that the element contains, not on the quality, which is reflected in the grade of execution. So it's possible for an excellent spiral sequence to be classified as level 1 because it doesn't meet the criteria for higher levels and to receive higher GOE, and for a mediocre spiral sequence to meet the criteria for level 4 but not deserve positive GOE.

    Keep in mind also that good body line and superior flexibility are only one of several possible criteria for positive GOE. So skaters with mediocre body line might still deserve positive GOE because of strengths on the other criteria.
     
    LynnW and (deleted member) like this.
  3. iarispiralllyof

    iarispiralllyof Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2010
    Messages:
    774
    thank you very much, that answered all of my questions regarding this issue thoroughly

    as I thought though, I feel some skaters are overscored in this regard. it's true there are other aspects to a great spiral than just extension or body line, such as speed. but it's always possible to have both speed and great extension. judges should leave more room and have higher standards >O don't mind my little rant lol
     
  4. ambern024

    ambern024 New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2009
    Messages:
    168
    From what I can gather basically it doesn't have to look pretty. Ha as long as u can contort your body and hold it for a certain amount of seconds ur good.
     
  5. iarispiralllyof

    iarispiralllyof Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2010
    Messages:
    774
    I'm sure they also put into consideration steadiness, control of edge, and speed =/ wish they would leave the +2's GOE and up to actual beautiful spirals though.
     
  6. Doubletoe

    Doubletoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2006
    Messages:
    2,607
    Actually, the spiral sequence rules have changed every single season, even over the past several years. These rule changes have gradually brought the difficulty of the level 3 and 4 spiral sequences more in line with that of the spins, and closer (although still not as difficult) to that of the step sequences.

    Changes made between 2007 and 2010:
    - Limited the number of spiral positions to 3, so that all level features had to be completed in just 3 positions.
    - Took away the feature level for the fan spiral unless it was performed with an inverted torso and/or extreme flexibility.
    - 6-second hold added as a feature
    - Change of edge must be completed within 1 meter of ice on the change-edge spiral
    - Second difficult variation now needs to be significantly different from the first, not just on a different foot.
     
  7. oubik

    oubik Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2001
    Messages:
    2,160
    The proposal for 2010/2011 is that spirals for ladies SP (and also the other StSq in men SP) will have no levels but all of them the same SOV (Scale of Values) and Judges will be only GOEing them (from -3 to +3).

    So we will see soon.
     
  8. Erica Lee

    Erica Lee New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2004
    Messages:
    2,146
    Yes, they're tired of the cookie cutter level 4 spiral sequence that we see over and over again. Anyone can get a level 4, really, so the levels have become pointless and just made the spiral sequences uncreative (save for a few innovators who have refused to take the easy way out and do vary from the norm). Taking away the level requirements will allow skaters to choose any style of spiral that best suits their choreo and focus on quality rather than the easiest way to SpSq4.
     
  9. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2003
    Messages:
    10,129
    Great! Now if only they could somehow get rid of required spiral sequences in the LP or maybe let them do individual spirals throughout the routine and average the GOE or something if they're that desperate to keep the spirals as another element to put on the score sheet.
     
  10. oubik

    oubik Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2001
    Messages:
    2,160
    Sorry my wrong interpretations. Short Programmes would be less of one element (SpSq for ladies and StSq for men - if the lady is going for spirals in the SP, the execution would be rewarded in transitions) , what I was posting was applying for the free programmes.
     
  11. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2009
    Messages:
    2,067
    ^ I thought that was just a rumor. But it's true?!?!?! I love spirals and that's the only reason why I watch the ladies (some ladies at least). :(
     
  12. iarispiralllyof

    iarispiralllyof Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2010
    Messages:
    774
    in the past year or so that I started to watch skating again I've noticed most ladies do contortionist looking spirals while holding their foot. they're all very similar and unattractive O_O; save for a few

    spirals used to be one of my favorite elements though. when sasha cohen or michelle kwan did them <3
     
  13. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2009
    Messages:
    2,067
    That's true. Most skaters don't do proper spirals a-la Yuna Kim... But for those who can, they're just beautiful.

    I thing I never understood is that many ladies can do split jumps (full split) and biellman spins (meaning they need good flexibility to do it), but they can barely get above they're hip in the spiral. Does anyone know why? It just doesn't make sense to me. For example, Joannie can do a full split yet her classic back spiral barely gets over her hip.
     
  14. iarispiralllyof

    iarispiralllyof Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2010
    Messages:
    774
    no offense, yuna is a spectacular skater but her spiral is one of the few things I don't like about her. she has good speed on it though..

    and I totally share ur confusion over some ladies having proper flexibility yet bad spirals....if I'm going to speculate as a non-skater I think it's cos doing a split jump is very brief, and as for the biellman - that has the assistance of the skater's hand in achieving the position. with a spiral you have to keep the free leg extended independently and for an extended period of time while keeping your skate edge steady
     
  15. MR-FAN

    MR-FAN Kostner Softie

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2008
    Messages:
    5,565
    YES YES YES!!!!
     
  16. iarispiralllyof

    iarispiralllyof Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2010
    Messages:
    774
    but do spirals still have to be done in "sequences" - I mean do you have to do 3 in succession? I remember in the 90's some skaters just did one or two positions and put them into the program where it would fit with the music. I prefer if they were just judged this way, otherwise it's so forced
     
  17. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2010
    Messages:
    10,333
    I have a question, how do judges factor GOE? I'm always confused because I look at scoring sheets and see a bunch of +2s for GOE and then in the GOE column it's like 0.8. Like for Mirai at Worlds, all 9 judges gave her +3 for her layback spin, but then in the GOE column it said 1.5. Why is it this way? If all the judges gave her +3, shouldn't she get +3 instead of +1.5?
     
  18. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2003
    Messages:
    10,667
    Look at the Scale of Values.
    The judges don't factor it -- the computer program does.
     
  19. LilJen

    LilJen Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2006
    Messages:
    9,518
    Split jumps and Bielmanns take flexibility, yes, but it takes an additional amount of SERIOUS strength in the butt muscles and back to hold/push your leg up. And you have to have flexibility way beyond 180 degrees to get a spiral that's 180 degrees.

    Also, we've been spoiled by a few super flexible skaters to think that spiral = splits (180 degrees), when the edging and body position and steadiness of the blade on the ice are all tremendously important parts of a spiral. And I would hardly call this or this "barely above hip level."
     
  20. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2009
    Messages:
    2,067
    Okay so it's not barely, but they aren't the full splits they could be capable of But in my opinion, the leg should at least be a tad bit higher with their flexibility (Biellmans and full splits).
     
  21. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2003
    Messages:
    10,129
    I don't really think spirals have to be in a split position in order to be aesthetically-pleasing and I greatly value edge control and speed over flexibility. However, the bodylines of Kim's and Rochette's are pretty hideous.
     
  22. LilJen

    LilJen Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2006
    Messages:
    9,518
    I think Joannie's spirals are lovely. Yu-Na DESPERATELY needs to learn how to stretch her leg and point her toe--drives me nuts!!
     
  23. Lanie

    Lanie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2003
    Messages:
    4,649
    I can't believe some girls don't lock the leg and point their toes. It's not just about flexibility, it's about holding the position and making it look attractive. Bent knees and hanging feet are not pretty. Joannie sometimes does this, but Yu-na does it all the time. It drives me crazy too. Joannie's look quite lovely in person, much better than in photos or in television. I wonder why.

    I like the idea of no required SpSq for ladies, so they can do them but do them well instead of having to contort themselves for level fours.
     
  24. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2003
    Messages:
    10,129
    I don't mind spiral sequences in the SP. SPs are designed to have elements listed so judges can compare skaters based on those specific elements.

    However, the LP needs to get rid of the spiral sequences because they're really pointless. Allow skaters to do spirals within the program when it makes sense with the music and choreography.
     
  25. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2003
    Messages:
    10,667
    That (spiral sequence required in the SP, not in the LP) been exactly the situation for junior ladies for the last two years or so. Does that work for you?
     
  26. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2003
    Messages:
    10,129
    Yes, I believe so.
     
  27. Lookingood

    Lookingood New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2009
    Messages:
    121
    I love Speed and edge's in Spirals.
    never really cared much about point toes.
     
  28. iarispiralllyof

    iarispiralllyof Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2010
    Messages:
    774
    it's not really about pointed toes even. a lot of these ppl have great speeds but their body lines (as has been said) are bad. so it's like they're gliding along awkwardly with their knees bent and their legs looking out of place and quivering/wobbling without security. the spiral is supposed to be majestic but in those instances it just looks awkward lol
     
  29. ambern024

    ambern024 New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2009
    Messages:
    168
    IMO someone can have a full split in their spiral and it still not look pretty. I think it all has to do with the stretch in their back. It looks so much better when the chest is upright and ur in a split. Ya if ur bending more at the neck then ur back not so pretty.